Non OTU: Divorcing Yards from the Port

[SanDragon]

I agree with your summary in theory, but question whether any of the Traders and Gunboat Starship designs seem to particularly lend themselves to the sort of modular construction that you are talking about.

So it seems to me that shipyards 'COULD' function like that, but none of the classic ships 'WERE' made that way.
YMMV

If not modular, then at minimum, standardized.

 

[aramis]

I would argue that the Small Ship universe is best for role-playing, while your Big Ship universe is for wargaming.

Yes, you can have a character who is an Admiral commanding a major fleet, but at that point, the player is in the same position as someone who is playing Imperium, Star Fleet Battles, Warp War, or a similar space combat war game.

Not entirely true. In Imperium, or SFB, or Warp War, you have only the options presented in the game; in a roleplaying context, one can try diplomacy, assigning spec-ops to "nail missions", assassinate their sector commander, and other such "Not covered but still significant" actions.

 

[Carlobrand]

Not entirely true. In Imperium, or SFB, or Warp War, you have only the options presented in the game; in a roleplaying context, one can try diplomacy, assigning spec-ops to "nail missions", assassinate their sector commander, and other such "Not covered but still significant" actions.

Not to mention the petty political intrigues that can make or break your next promotion.

 

[BytePro]

MODULAR

There are two types of 'modular' in construction terms:

• Modular in that parts A, B and C can be connected in various orientations and arrangements. Think modular office furniture like cubicles.
  
• And then there is 'modular' in that the construct is broken into A, B, and C and is designed to be combined, but only in one possible sequence.

The later is being used today for modern ship construction - computers and modern techniques allows for precision alignment such that hulls, bulkheads, conduit, ducts, plumbing, etc. can literally be matched up at the yard.

In Traveller terms, take a far trader and literally slice it in several parts - then the yard 'welds' it into one complete whole...

 

[BlackBat242]

Here is a perfect example of the second kind of modular construction:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/qeclasscarriers/

Scroll down towards the bottom of the page, and look at page 2 & 3.

 

[BytePro]

CAPACITY - SHIPYARD

Tonnage - there are two types:

• Total tonnage (all ships in construction)
  
• Max individual tonnage

My take is that these would be bounded by method, tech level, and location.

Space or dirtside. Grav tech, or conventional. Onsite fab, or pre-fab modular.

Ex: Dirtside conventional is limited by blocking and gantry size if modular. Time and shipyard size if fab (one builds up) with TL limits for drives and components fabbed on site. In addition, either launching tugs must be available, or ships must have drives sufficient to lift to space.

Coding follows HG tonnage code, with multiplier for total tonnage (as yards could support total tonnage > 1 million dtons).

Number of construction bays could also be coded.

 

[BytePro]

Here is a perfect example of the second kind of modular construction:

Thanks BlackBat242! A picture is worth a thousand words (ten thousand in the case of my word vomit ).

Those are awesome - and this is exactly what I was trying to convey...

 

[warmaster40k]

The way I view shipyards is that if it has a ship yard then if it can build starships they are built in modular components dirt side, then using a series of air/rafts they slowly lift to high orbit and assemble them. Also remmember that this world is set an unknown quantity of thousands of years in the future after thousands of years stellar societies have been exploring and building interstellar nations. During which an uncountable interstellar wars have been fought. So to maintain a warfooting, a jump capable tug ship hauls ship yards that have been packed. Parking said packed ship yard to a Larange point then deploying construction drones with the right programming, leave return in a month a brand new shipyard for use. So you are exploring a cluster, and you find a vacuum world, with no population, and hanging in orbit is a shipyard. Well its a little old but you can fix it, return it to working order as a major share holder. But why this system, well after a extensive survey you found out why, the planet is rich in exotic ores, perfect for building jump drives on site. That would explain some of the auto face.

 

[atpollard]

In Traveller terms, take a far trader and literally slice it in several parts - then the yard 'welds' it into one complete whole...

Conceptually, yes it could be done, but look at the pictures of modular ship that were provided and the plan of the Far Trader in the Mongoose Traveller core book.
Where are the vertical and horizontal alignment of bulkheads or columns that would allow the modules to be self supporting, transportable and welded together?

The Far Trader looks more like an aircraft (where a structural shell is constructed first and components bolted to the interior) than the modular ships shown in those pictures.

This is not a hill worth fighting for, but those plans do not appear to indicate any sort of structural subdivision like would be required for the sort of modular construction that we see in modern shipbuilding.

 

[BillDowns]

To me, the Book 2 and Mongoose Core ship construction is like Blohm und Voss' MEKO concept from the early 70's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEKO

Basically, they offered standard sized hulls which were welded steel hulls. Then, the machinery was installed in modules. Then, environmental machinery, crew's quarters, etc, until the hull was filled. The deck gets plated over, the ship launched, then the superstructure is built - again, modular. Finally, the armaments and electronics are installed and the ships picked up by the customer. The Spruances and Ticonderoga's were built in a similar fashion.

That's rather how I envision LBB2 and MgT Core ships being built. Whether this requires consideration of the yards separately is another question.

 

[BytePro]

Conceptually, yes it could be done, but look at the pictures of modular ship that were provided and the plan of the Far Trader in the Mongoose Traveller core book.
Where are the vertical and horizontal alignment of bulkheads or columns that would allow the modules to be self supporting, transportable and welded together?

LOL, I looked at the Free Trader and asked myself how could atpollard not see!?

Yeah, the Far Trader I can definitely see your point! I tried to envision cutting up the different major sections modularity and yuck...

But, after staring at it for a moment - noticed the basic symmetry... simply quarter the cargo deck level on the mid-lines, and for the fuel deck, separate the fuel and engineering section from the front. YMMV.

 

[atpollard]

To me, the Book 2 and Mongoose Core ship construction is like Blohm und Voss' MEKO concept from the early 70's.

I like the MEKO concept and completely agree.

LOL, I looked at the Free Trader and asked myself how could atpollard not see!?

Yeah, the Far Trader I can definitely see your point! I tried to envision cutting up the different major sections modularity and yuck...

But, after staring at it for a moment - noticed the basic symmetry... simply quarter the cargo deck level on the mid-lines, and for the fuel deck, separate the fuel and engineering section from the front. YMMV.

Yeah, I can see it as a possibility for the Free Trader, but the Far Trader (which I looked at because it was the ship you specifically mentioned) seemed a little floppy around the middle for cubing and welding like the earlier posts show.

One thought that immediately occurred to me is that these are only 200 dTon ships ... if 400 dTons is the common module size that the tugs can handle, then these ships might just be too darn small to be worth building by welding cubes together.

Sort of like we build supertankers in modules, but we do not weld 4 quarter-cars together to build a sedan.

 

[BytePro]

...
One thought that immediately occurred to me is that these are only 200 dTon ships ... if 400 dTons is the common module size that the tugs can handle, then these ships might just be too darn small to be worth building by welding cubes together.

Sort of like we build supertankers in modules, but we do not weld 4 quarter-cars together to build a sedan.

Very good point - that type of modular construction does seem more applicable to large and capital sized ships. For the smaller and more common stuff, major internal components yeah, but hull and fixtures wouldn't seem worth the effort. Nor the added risk ala the points you made about structure, etc., both during and post construction. Ala BillDowns' MEKO design, if I understand it correctly. That's pretty much how I envisioned things normally.

IIRC, most rules do refer to standard hulls and the like, not just standard designs.

P.S. - the 'weld 4 quarter-cars together to build a sedan' I found amusing - since I know several people who that have done just that (from completely different vehicles!). Though notably none were split longwise front to back - and certainly not stock...

 

[BillDowns]

Ala BillDowns' MEKO design, if I understand it correctly.

Not mine - Blohm und Voss.

P.S. - the 'weld 4 quarter-cars together to build a sedan' I found amusing - since I know several people who that have done just that (from completely different vehicles!). Though notably none were split longwise front to back - and certainly not stock...

LOL - the ones I've seen pictures really do look like a horse designed by committee.:file_21:

 

[BytePro]

LOL - the ones I've seen pictures really do look like a horse designed by committee.:file_21:

I won't ride in 'em!

 

[McPerth]

When we talk about shipyards, I always understood about building mainly the hull, as fitting it is easier, in the way it needs lesser facilities. You can refit the interior of you car in your garaje, but it would be quite more difficult to build it there...

 

[BillDowns]

I won't ride in 'em!

I'm not sure I would want to ride in a Nigerian maintained MEKO360, either!