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Trade Codes + Population as limiter for Hull Sizes in construction capability

I think there's also an assumption of maybe forty hour work weeks.

While I don't think production scales linearly, that could be three shifts plus weekend.
 
I would think the HG computer limits govern ship size for HG design ships, and the letter drive tech limits limit LBB2 sizes, plus computers might limit J drives for jump program limits at the cheaper model numbers.
Those are limitations placed on the Naval Architect ... the designs, engineering and planning.
They do not represent the limitations placed on the Shipyard (which is what I'm attempting to do here) ... the construction capacity.

Point being there isn't just a SINGLE chokepoint determining what can get built where ... there are MULTIPLE factors that go into determining what can be built where.
Starport type (need A for jump capability)
Tech Level
Population (what I'm proposing here in this thread)

LBB A5 adds the war/peace dividend factor to overall output capacity
The speed of construction may be slow.
e.g. Cathedrals took hundreds to years (sometimes) to construct.
Cathedrals were also public buildings (effectively making them "public works" projects, in modern day parlance). They aren't exactly "private property" like a ship is (wet or space). Cathedrals were also pretty explicitly "one off" custom job affairs every time one got built. There was no "mass production standard" design that every cathedral copied. Sure, there were plenty of cathedrals that used the same techniques and construction engineering (pointed arches, windows, flying buttresses, DOMES, etc.) but no two were built exactly alike to the same standard plan, they were all custom jobs (and had to be, given the skills, labor and construction techniques of the era).

Functionally, what you're saying is that ... even if Paya/Aramis/Spinward Marches has a UWP of A655241-9 ... if I want to build a 1,000,000 ton TL=9 custom starship there, then I should have every expectation that such a LBB5.80 design would be delivered in 60 months (LBB5.80, p20) NO PROBLEM because a type A starport can construct any size of ship (no questions asked, and besides, that's the RAW).

According to Travellerwiki, Paya has a population of 600 people.
Assuming 100% of the population abandoned their "day jobs" to work on constructing this (hypothetical for example illustration purposes only) 1,000,000 ton TL=9 boondoggle ... and assuming they were going to complete it in 60 months(!) as per RAW ... how many tons of construction would they need to FINISH each month PER PERSON working on the project? :unsure:
  • 1,000,000 / 60 / 600 = 27.777777777777778 tons * 14m3 = 388.888888888888889m3
So basically each "man, woman and child" among the 600 permanent residents would need to construct effectively 1 ton per day per person working on the project (minimum), with everyone working "flat out" for 60 months straight (meaning they build 600 tons of finalized construction PER DAY!).



Now, I've purposefully chosen this obviously ridiculous example to point out the silliness of the premise and highlight the edge case involved here. I would submit that no matter how much automation is involved in the starport construction facilities, the "demand load" required to produce such a craft ought to vastly outstrip the resources and capabilities of the workforce (population) expected to produce such a starship.

And before you point out that at TL=9 you can't get a big enough computer model to manage a 1,000,000 ton starship ... the computer would be imported for installation. The rest of the ship would still be built at TL=9 standards.

My point here is that the construction capacity of lower population mainworld shipyards is naturally going to be lower/less than the construction capacity of higher population mainworld shipyards (let alone Industrialized worlds with manufacturing and construction capacity out the wazoo!). If you're a BUYER looking around for a place to build your next megaproject ... for reasons various and sundry, you're probably NOT going to chose a location like Paya/Ararmis/Spinward Marches as a low population non-industrialized world as the primary contractor.

Sure, the RAW is silent on whether or not there "might be a problem" with doing that ... but Common Sense™ has a thumb on the button for the TDX charge that's going to cut you off at the knees if you proceed with such a ludicrous scheme. 💥🦵



And if that isn't enough to give people Some Sense Of Proportion™ about the problem I've identified here ... I have a Piece Of Fairy Cake you really ought to acquaint yourself with whenever you might have a minute and a half to spare. ;)
 
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One more question about the OP:

Worlds with Population: 0-6 (Non-industrial trade code), USP hull sizes are limited to the UWP population code.
  • Population: 2 world can construct up to Hull Size: 2 (200-299 tons) craft.

How many such hulls could the shipyard build simultaneously?

See tht TCS system, as it is given as tonnes where to work simultaniously, solves it. If you have 2 Mdton capacity, you can be building at once two 1 Mdton ships, or 10 200 kdton ones, to give an example...
 
How many such hulls could the shipyard build simultaneously?
I haven't thought THAT deeply into the topic to give a satisfying answer.
The best I can give you would be one of ... IT DEPENDS ... because a proper answer is going to depend on context.

Supposedly :rolleyes: ... one of the reasons by Paya/Aramis/Spinward Marches remains viable as a type A starport is because it's the only type A starport available for starship construction along a segment of the Spinward Main. In J1 terms, there are 11 worlds (1 of which is a Red Zone) "after" the nearest type A starports along the main (at Fulacin/Rhylanor and Risek/Rhylanor), so there's the opportunity to "corner the market" for J1 free trader starship construction in this local interstellar market.

However, within 4-6 parsecs distance (not along the J1 main) there are 4 other type A starports, all with higher tech levels (A-B) ... and just slightly beyond that is the Rhylanor group of worlds, all with type A starports and tech levels B or F.

Which is a long winded way of saying that the simultaneous hull construction capacity is going to largely depend on the demand for hulls (in quantity) ... and that isn't exactly something that can be usefully determined just from looking at a UWP in isolation (if you want to be fair and adjudicate the question properly). From an economics standpoint, a particular shipyard with a breakout product that is in high demand will almost certainly invest in greater simultaneous hull production capacity in order to meet that demand (whether domestic or foreign) ... while a shipyard with a limited range of products in low demand may (theoretically) have the construction capacity, but a lot (most?) of that capacity is sitting idle each year due to a lack of demand for services. This is why I keep bringing up Paya/Aramis/Spinward Marches as an example because it's a good outlier edge case for illustrating the problem with.
 
TL9
2TLs above our manufacturing capacity here on TL7 Earth.

That means a lot more automation in assembly factories.

The workers at the shipyard may well not be natives of Paya.
 
Hmmm.
I think there's also an assumption of maybe forty hour work weeks.

While I don't think production scales linearly, that could be three shifts plus weekend.
There is a TCS rule allowing you to dump buckets of credits for faster building rates, that should cover the overtime option.
 
Hmmm.

There is a TCS rule allowing you to dump buckets of credits for faster building rates, that should cover the overtime option.
How do you fit 200+ hours of labor productivity into a 168 hour week again? 😖

Point being that even if you "overpay" for the construction, there are limits to how fast you can go (even with bottomless pits of cash). There are other constraints.
 
Since the Industrialized trade [classification] doesn’t require a minimum technological index, would all starship-constructing worlds require a minimum technological index of 9, per 1977 Book 3, p. 11? (Similarly, would all starship-drive-constructing worlds require minimum technological indices of between A and F, depending upon the particular drive type?) Or would an A starport effectively be considered to have its own technological index of at least 9, even if its world has a lower technological index (it’s not a likely outcome, but it is a possible outcome), so that all A starports can construct starships, per 1977 Book 3, p. 5?
This is where things get tricky … 🤫
The best answer is one of “IT DEPENDS” on what you're building (and what you’re putting into it) … and how your Referee prefers to adjudicate this kind of question.
I’d meant solely in terms of your proposal regarding which worlds can construct which starships and/or starship drives, depending upon the worlds’ populations or Industrial trade classifications. My presumptions (which could well be mistaken) were that some proportion of shipyards are going to be found in orbit rather than adjacent to a class A downport, so that ships without atmospheric streamlining can be serviced; and that Industrialized worlds with sufficiently low technological indices would not have full-service shipyards, unless such shipyards are considered inherent parts of (rather than adjacent to but independent of) class A starports.
 
My presumptions (which could well be mistaken) were that some proportion of shipyards are going to be found in orbit rather than adjacent to a class A downport
An orbital highport facility is a fair assumption for all type A starports.
and that Industrialized worlds with sufficiently low technological indices would not have full-service shipyards
Well, considering that starport A is a +6DM and population 9 is a +2DM for tech levels, adding a 1D6 roll on top of that will almost always yield a result of 9+ ... so I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.

Certainly the lowest tech level industrialized world with a type A starport in the Spinward Marches is Vilis/Vilis at TL=A (basically a result of 2 on the 1D roll for tech, given the +DMs from UWP).

If your point is that "not all industrialized worlds with a type A starport are TL=F" ... well ... yeah. Being industrialized with a type A starport is not a "guarantee" for a 1D=6 roll for tech level when rolling for UWPs before adding +DMs.
 
Well, considering that starport A is a +6DM and population 9 is a +2DM for tech levels, adding a 1D6 roll on top of that will almost always yield a result of 9+ … so I’m not quite sure what you’re getting at here.
A class A starport (+6), a population of 9 (+2), and a government of D (−2) results in a technological index of 1D6+6, so it is possible (albeit not very likely) that an Industrialized world can have a technological index < 9.

If your point is that “not all industrialized worlds with a type A starport are TL=F” … well … yeah.
My point is that not all Industrialized worlds with a class A starport have a minimum technological index of 9.
 
I can't see population beyond say about 4 being an issue. That is, once you have tens of thousands or more people, a shipyard is a possibility regardless of the size of ship being built. What would be the determining factors are need and or a market. Components could be imported where necessary. The yard does assembly and some fashioning of materials and parts but relies on imports for much of what they do.

Automation of many processes would reduce human labor requirements too. So, population wouldn't be a big factor in any of this.

As for trade codes, in my case, I use a homegrown system for trade that takes into account more factors and delivers a 0 - 10 rating for each planet. 0 to about 3 is a basket case, 4 to about 6 is a so-so economy, and anything above about 6 is thriving with 8+ being massive.
 
Automation of many processes would reduce human labor requirements too. So, population wouldn't be a big factor in any of this.
Automation can certainly reduce human labor requirements ... but it's never (or at least, shouldn't!) going to eliminate human labor oversight requirements. One of those "who watches the watchers" kind of deals.
once you have tens of thousands or more people, a shipyard is a possibility regardless of the size of ship being built.
However, you also need to be figuring what fraction of a world's total population are (or even better yet, can) be devoted to (in this case) ship construction ... because it's not going to be 100% of everyone.

Think of it this way.
In current day US, the population is ~330,000,000 but there are businesses that have less than 100,000 employees (such as Arby's Sandwiches or coal mining, for example). So 100,000 employees out of a nation of 330,000,000 people is a 0.03% fraction of the total population.

If you take that same 0.03% fraction of the total population and apply it to a world population scale of 10,000 people (Population: 4) ... you're talking about a business enterprise that employs ... 3 people.

Point being that at the lower end of the UWP scale for world population, you start needing an increasingly large fraction of the world population just to man the starport, enough so that it can become "unbalancing" to the overall world economy. Now granted, non-industrial (Population: 6-) worlds aren't going to have fully diversified and potentially self-sustaining economies (yet) that can "circularize" sufficiently to be self-sustaining and self-perpetuating (yet), but there are going to be limits on how many people a world economy can "spare" for activities such as starship construction at a starport at such low population levels.

I'm merely suggesting that as Referees we ought to be respectful of such considerations when determining the "limits of viability" for What Can Be Built Where within a sector of space, rather than just blithely assuming that there are no restrictions of any kind whatsoever that we need concern ourselves with. Going that extra kilometer of respecting that "next level of crunch" in UWPs and map context around shipyards helps prevent game universes from being "too uniform" such that if you've seen one type A starport ... you've seen them all (if you know what I mean). That kind of differentiation of places helps to make TRAVEL from place to place (in a game named Traveller) more worthwhile, where it not only "broadens the mind" but also broadens the range of opportunities (you can do things here that you couldn't do there, for example).

Doing that helps bring a setting "alive" in ways that are accessible and aid in immersion, raising the value of being able to imagine yourself living (adventuring, fighting, dying, etc.) in such a setting ... rather than letting it just be stat blocks and rules.

The difference between ROLLplay and ROLEplay, I guess.
 
Company towns.

Capitalism succeeded by technofeudalism.

However, I think that in terms of spacecraft production, you need to figure out actually how many starships and spacecraft are manufactured per annum, and I bet, from the Traveller setting, it's a lot less than you think.
 
Think of it this way.

Well you can also think it this other way: I guess in USA (POP 8, as you say) Churches (or other religious institutions) employs less than 1% of the working force. In Vatican (POP 2, according wikipedia), I guess Catholic Church employs nearly 100 of them.

in a World with a Starport A and low population it's likely the starport IS the world economy.

While what you say is true, it works on large mixted economies, but on a 10000 people town (or country, or system) the likehood of a single business to (directly or indirectly) control most of its economy is large, and for such a system to maintain an A starport it's likely most of its population will depend on it, be it directly (most people work there) or indirectly (while most starport are off-worlders, most planet population is likely to work in related support jobs).
 
I haven't thought THAT deeply into the topic to give a satisfying answer. (...)
If the limit is due to workforce, it should affect as much the maximum tonnage of the ships as the number of ships worked on simultaneously...

How do you fit 200+ hours of labor productivity into a 168 hour week again? 😖
With more than 1 worker (robots included)

Point being that even if you "overpay" for the construction, there are limits to how fast you can go (even with bottomless pits of cash). There are other constraints.

TCS puts a limit on it, but with extra workers and money you can speed it quite a lot...
 
Company towns.
Capitalism succeeded by technofeudalism.
in a World with a Starport A and low population it's likely the starport IS the world economy.
Indeed.
It's perfectly possible (because it's been done so many times in the history of humaniti) to have a single major employer (THE factory, the Vatican as McPerth cites, the big box store, whatever) that controls the overwhelming majority of the local economy. History is littered with examples of what amount to (in hindsight) Boom & Bust towns where the location "booms" because of something specific to that place (resources, such as gold, petrochemicals, agriculture, unique manufacturing skills, etc.) which then go completely belly up and blow away when the "bust" times come and the music stops, leaving an abandoned ghost town.

In the US there are plenty of stories of boom & bust mining towns throughout the Old West where a valuable resource is found, a town springs up around the exploitation of it, and then when the source of that "wealth" plays out and dries up, the town's economy collapses, people move away and the town just withers away and dies (on the vine, so to speak), becoming an abandoned ghost town.

Not to invoke the politics of The Pit, but an analogous situation is currently playing out in Brexit Britain right now ... where company towns are having major manufacturers shutter facilities to relocate them to other countries (often the EU, but not always), which devastates the local economies of the towns that supported those industries, sometimes irrevocably. My point here is simply one of the fact that "company towns" dominated by a single industry which in effect "lose the company" are going to suffer disproportionately large economic damages as a result, which can involve the "foreclosing on the future" for the inhabitants who live there ... at which point they need to "up stakes" and move somewhere else to make a living.

A starport that IS the world economy (as @McPerth cites) is perfectly possible ... it's been done before, it'll be done again ... but it is not an inherently stable long term option, since it's an "all eggs in one basket, don't lose the basket" strategy for an entire world's economy. It effectively makes the world economy a "colony" dependent on foreign investment to keep it going, meaning that the world's (starport) economy is utterly dependent upon market forces it cannot hope to control, let alone influence all that effectively, absent a niche role and need for services that are not obtainable elsewhere within a competitive radius.



And on the point of needing "foreign investment" in order to "keep the party going" ... let's take the example @McPerth provided of Vatican City. If Vatican City were cut off from imports (donations of wealth, supplies, services) and the demand for exports (faith, teaching, records, etc.) completely collapsed ... how long would Vatican City be able to continue operating as it has? If imports+exports fell to zero, would anything change at all? If Vatican City were (somehow) relocated to geosynchronous orbit (for whatever reason) and couldn't import anything ... how long would Vatican City "last" as an ongoing enterprise in its current configuration/state.

My point being that if demand for what Vatican City supplies were to evaporate (effectively), what Vatican City produces would need to change. Likewise, if what Vatican City can bring in were to evaporate (effectively to nothing), it could not continue doing what it has been doing up to this point. Without inputs and outputs, Vatican City would either be abandoned and/or radically repurposed in order to become more self-sufficient.



And it's that self(ish)-sufficiency that is the real sticking point for world economies in scattered star systems around the map of subsectors and sectors of space. By definition, non-industrial worlds are not (yet) self-sustaining in their economic diversification. Most non-industrial worlds are going to be experiencing a variations of the Resource Curse since non-industrial worlds are typically places for harvesting/resource extraction to be shipped off elsewhere (such as industrial worlds) as raw material inputs for creating Value Added manufactured goods ... which then get shipped out to the non-industrial worlds (at a profitable price) ... and the whole economic colonization proceeds apace. Yes, there is a co-dependent relationship in the structure of the respective world economies, but the trading power dynamic is definitely unequal.

Which means (bringing this back to starports as world economies) that although you can take a stab at an approximation of "labor participation" (in absolute number terms) by using a UWP Population Code (and Trade Codes) like I'm doing here ... being able to definitively nail down how much supply/demand there is going to be for a service such as starship contruction from a type A starport is trickier, since that's going beyond what a UWP is trying to represent.
If the limit is due to workforce, it should affect as much the maximum tonnage of the ships as the number of ships worked on simultaneously...
I'm being modest with my proposal in only trying to limit the maximum tonnage per hull by looking at UWP and Trade Codes, which then becomes a "class design capacity" limit, with low population places more limited in the size of hulls that they can construct (due to a limited quantity of sophonts to oversee and manage the construction project, even if all the "work" is done by robots and automation).

It's the difference been "mom & pop shop" versus megacorporation with unending legions of employees and bottomless resources.
However, I think that in terms of spacecraft production, you need to figure out actually how many starships and spacecraft are manufactured per annum, and I bet, from the Traveller setting, it's a lot less than you think.
If you think in terms of 40 year service lives before being sold off for surplus and/or scrap ... if you build 1 hull per year at a shipyard, after 40 years there will be 40 hulls in circulation from that single construction facility. At that point, the first hull produced will (should) get moved into retirement and replaced, so after that point the number of hulls in circulation from that single construction facility would remain "pegged" at around 40 hulls (give or take) operating out in the wild.

Thus, having shorter construction times is more advantageous (to the shipyard and buyers both) since a single production line can keep more hulls in circulation than just 40 hulls over 40 years.

However, as we ought to know from real world naval construction that the most efficient way to construct tonnage is on a rolling, staggered basis. That's why it's cheaper for Electric Boat to be building two hulls per year (at different phases of completion) rather than just a single hull, finish that one hull before starting to build the next. The construction logistics work out better for utilization and retention of skills and people by building multiple hulls of the same class with offsets in the timing of their construction so as to "keep the party going" and make the work FLOW. That's how you can build 2 submarines at the same time (slightly offset) for less than the cost of building 1 submarine completely before starting work on the next submarine.

It's the difference between Single Production and Volume Production.

So if you've got two production lines, operating out of phase from each other (by let's say, 6 months), you can still be finishing out 2 hulls per year, but the half-year offset in when specialist skills are needed in volume construction of a single class reduces idle down time for skilled workers, improving the utilization efficiency of the workforce you've got available to you.

Which is a long winded way of saying that you can probably get a surprising amount of Tonnage Per Year out of a limited quantity workforce at a type A starport, but expecting them to be able to handle "big jobs" of high tonnage craft may not be reasonable.

10x 200 ton hulls per year ... can do. (y)
1x 2000 ton hull per year ... maybe not ... :unsure:
 
Well you can also think it this other way: I guess in USA (POP 8, as you say) Churches (or other religious institutions) employs less than 1% of the working force. In Vatican (POP 2, according wikipedia), I guess Catholic Church employs nearly 100 of them.

in a World with a Starport A and low population it's likely the starport IS the world economy.

While what you say is true, it works on large mixted economies, but on a 10000 people town (or country, or system) the likehood of a single business to (directly or indirectly) control most of its economy is large, and for such a system to maintain an A starport it's likely most of its population will depend on it, be it directly (most people work there) or indirectly (while most starport are off-worlders, most planet population is likely to work in related support jobs).
Exactly. I tend to call those Intergalactic truck stops. In the US in the Southwest you can find a truck stop, sometimes with an RV park next to it, off some highway exit and it's the only building in sight for like 50 miles. Think of it as that truck stop is some planet in a system and it's the only thing there because people need to refuel their ships to there to get where they're going.

As for ship construction, that a shipyard could build anything up to say 50,000 tons and has 200 to 500 workers and lots of automation on 10,000 population is very doable. Yea, maybe there's only one or two general stores on the planet to support that along with a some mom and pop businesses and restaurants, but the major job opportunity is the shipyard. It's what that planet does.

Maybe none of the ships stay local and buyers come because the prices are right, and the yard doesn't ask questions. Everything revolves around the shipyard. It'd be no different than if the major activity on some planet was resource extraction (mining, drilling, etc.). The planet's 'urban' area is a mining town. Everything revolves around the mine and when it is played out, everybody that can leave will leave. Ghost towns can be a thing.
 
As for ship construction, that a shipyard could build anything up to say 50,000 tons and has 200 to 500 workers and lots of automation on 10,000 population is very doable. Yea, maybe there's only one or two general stores on the planet to support that along with a some mom and pop businesses and restaurants, but the major job opportunity is the shipyard. It's what that planet does.

With 10000 people in the planet, it sure has some stores and resttaurants, some schooling, health facilities and so on, but all those services are fro the people working on the starport, being support for them (and so indirect workers too).

It effectively makes the world economy a "colony" dependent on foreign investment to keep it going, meaning that the world's (starport) economy is utterly dependent upon market forces it cannot hope to control, let alone influence all that effectively, absent a niche role and need for services that are not obtainable elsewhere within a competitive radius.

I won't use the word "colony", not so much due to its political independence (as it's not economically so) but because it would have multiple suppliers that need their product, so being protected by their own interests, even against one another.

MT Diaspora Astrogator's Guide shows some of those systems where a single asset (usually a B rated starport) has become so important for the whole subsector (and beyond) that no onw would dare to touch them out of fear for the rage of all nearby planets.

In the US there are plenty of stories of boom & bust mining towns throughout the Old West where a valuable resource is found, a town springs up around the exploitation of it, and then when the source of that "wealth" plays out and dries up, the town's economy collapses, people move away and the town just withers away and dies (on the vine, so to speak), becoming an abandoned ghost town.

Or, in the shadow of this "only product" a small supporting colony may be formed that, even when this busines goes out, may survive on its own (No Name City, of the film Paint Your Wagon comes to my mind. When the gold rush city is destroyed, they find out that a church, a school and a farming community has grown at its shadow, without the original gold minners realizing it).
 
MT Diaspora Astrogator's Guide shows some of those systems where a single asset (usually a B rated starport) has become so important for the whole subsector (and beyond) that no onw would dare to touch them out of fear for the rage of all nearby planets.
Which is a fair point ... but one that relies on use of an interstellar map and an appreciation of the economics and politics at play (don't rock the boat, you'll upset everyone if you do!). All of that context is going to be "external" to a single world's UWP score, so it's an understanding of the broader context of a setting and location (location, location!) rather than being something self-contained and siloed within a single world's UWP.

We are the Borg Third Imperium.
Your biological, economic and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own.
Resistance is futile amusing to us.
We look forward to subjugating you to our megacorporation overlords.

All hail
DLOFNEP the Magnificent!
 
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