Non OTU: Divorcing Yards from the Port

[McPerth]

And, let me point out that this isn't a CT specific thread...

Nor is the 1000 cr/ton/jump spcecific to CT.

In fact this rate is kept (at least) in CT, MT, TNE and T4, while I've only seen the prices to vary with the parsecs jumped in MgT. I cannot talk about T20, GT, TH or T5, as I have not read any of those.

 

[rancke]

Nor is the 1000 cr/ton/jump spcecific to CT.

In fact this rate is kept (at least) in CT, MT, TNE and T4, while I've only seen the prices to vary with the parsecs jumped in MgT. I cannot talk about T20, GT, TH or T5, as I have not read any of those.

And it is equally silly in all versions.

Yes, I meant to state that as a fact, not just an opinion.


Hans

 

[BytePro]

Yes, but for shipyards located in other star systems (without significant local populations), you're shipping the parts for the shipyard, the workers to build the shipyard, the workers to man the shipyard, the parts that are assembled at the shipyard, and the guards to protect the ships and the yard against raiders.

Yes - that is one simplistic example. There are lots of variations...

Why ship the parts and manpower to build the shipyard - just ship the shipyard and leave it. (Why? - strategic location, resources, politics and treaties, prejudices, keeping shipyards out of your own system, wars, intended colonization, etc.) Totally aside from transients, etc. populations are not static. Two year, two hundred years, before a survey, the system may have been booming for any number of reasons and therefore have a nice, high capacity shipyard. It may also be booming two months after the survey.

As for 'guarding' a station - that is certainly subject to automation, much more so than even construction (and not any fancy AI, either, as internally reactive would work well enough vs externally pro-active). Besides, if the RW is anything to go by, if the station is largely just a dormant construction facility it is unlikely to be protected by anything other than locks, signs and a gate.

Nothing in Traveller that I know of says shipyards are exclusively commercial. Especially as part of the starport, they, by and large, are going to subsidized, built or supported by government, at least initially. Most RL facilities - plane and shipping - are. As a critical part of interstellar trade, they will be subject to both private and government long-term investment, with collateral profit interests.

Coming up with rationales to match any possible UWP is really not that hard (though plausible physical ones ala tiny worlds with too much atmo can be a stretch). 'Making sense' in a larger setting like the OTU is another story entirely. I get that this is a major pet peeve. However, when looked at from a 'playable' standpoint, if the frequencies of occurrence where more believable for the entire OTU, then the odds of Players actually encountering interesting parts of it get pretty low. Either way, the OTU is what it is. I'd rather random worldgen generate interesting scenarios that I can dull down - its a more useful tool that way. I don't need a system designed to believably create 30,000 worlds.

Rather than simply complain about it, I'll offer up 'solutions' in the form of rationals. For rules, I never liked the Pop as 2D6-2, switched to 3D6-3 with modifiers for atmo a long time ago. I also interpret Pop-0 as ranging from 'Unknown' to 9. The former is good for ATUs, the later may be usable in the OTU.

 

[rancke]

Why ship the parts and manpower to build the shipyard - just ship the shipyard and leave it.

You don't manufacture shipyards whole and then move them.

(Why? - strategic location, resources, politics and treaties, prejudices, keeping shipyards out of your own system, wars, intended colonization, etc.)

All of these require very specific astrographical setups. You can't, for example, use the strategic location explanation unless the system is in a strategic location. What prejudices? Why would you want to keep shipyards out of your system? An explanation that reaises further questions is not a good explanation.

Totally aside from transients, etc. populations are not static. Two year, two hundred years, before a survey, the system may have been booming for any number of reasons and therefore have a nice, high capacity shipyard. It may also be booming two months after the survey.

Infrastructure has to be maintained. If the system has lost most of its population, it will have lost most of its manufacturing capacity. We're not talking about shipyards that could be made to work in a few months. We're talking about shipyards that are producing ships right this moment. The Scouts would not rate a starport capable of providing services if it wasn't capable of providing those services.

As for 'guarding' a station - that is certainly subject to automation, much more so than even construction (and not any fancy AI, either, as internally reactive would work well enough vs externally pro-active).

Even if that was true, you still have to pay to erect the defenses and to maintain them.

Besides, if the RW is anything to go by, if the station is largely just a dormant construction facility it is unlikely to be protected by anything other than locks, signs and a gate.

See above.

Nothing in Traveller that I know of says shipyards are exclusively commercial.

No, but the HG rule that allows governments to build warhips using local resources even if their starport is Class E shows that a shipyard alone is not enough to give a Class A rating. So what does it take to get one? Obviously that the starport is able to provide the services that the rules says a Class A starport provides. Which includes the ability of a civilian with enough money to have a ship designed and built there.

Especially as part of the starport, they, by and large, are going to subsidized, built or supported by government, at least initially. Most RL facilities - plane and shipping - are. As a critical part of interstellar trade, they will be subject to both private and government long-term investment, with collateral profit interests.

What government? The local (sovereign) population can't be taxed to support a speedboat.

Coming up with rationales to match any possible UWP is really not that hard.

People seem to have a hard time coming up with plausible ones.

'Making sense' in a larger setting like the OTU is another story entirely. I get that this is a major pet peeve. However, when looked at from a 'playable' standpoint, if the frequencies of occurrence where more believable for the entire OTU, then the odds of Players actually encountering interesting parts of it get pretty low.

That a bad rule doesn't matter as long as you never need to use it doesn't make it a good rule.

Either way, the OTU is what it is.

The OTU is an example of what happens if you use the world generation rules as written and without vetting them before publication and demonstrates the flaws of those rules admirably, if I may use that word in this context.


Hans

 

[robject]

A lot of things other than metal have been used for money in Earth's history.

I am compelled to quote the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.:

In fact there are three freely convertible currencies in the Galaxy, but none of them count. The Altairian Dollar has recently collapsed, the Flanian Pobble bead is only exchangeable for other Flanian Pobble Beads, and the Triganic Pu has its own very special problems. Its exchange rate of eight Ningis to one Pu is simple enough, but since a Ningi is a rubber coin six thousand eight hundred miles along each side, no one has ever collected enough to own one Pu. Ningis are not negotiable currency, because the Galactibanks refuse to deal in fiddling small change. From this basic premise it is very simple to prove that the Galactibanks are also the product of a deranged imagination.

 

[HG_B]

Nor is the 1000 cr/ton/jump spcecific to CT.

In fact this rate is kept (at least) in CT, MT, TNE and T4, while I've only seen the prices to vary with the parsecs jumped in MgT. I cannot talk about T20, GT, TH or T5, as I have not read any of those.

Aramis covered this. Your argument about Trav shipping cost being expensive vis-a-vis current ones on Earth has been debunked.

 

[robject]

Thread Summary So Far

Thread Summary So Far

What I find interesting is that this discussion quickly developed a working concept of what is a shipyard (it may not be the same as a "factory" or industrial center) to arrive at shipping costs. Or, perhaps, this is a re-hash, because I got a distinct déjà vu about that particular topic. This is not new territory.

The presumption, then -- which I think is a reasonable one -- is that a shipyard can be more like a warehouse of modular parts and trained diagnosticians, than an industrial drydock and component fab. In the case of a class A and B starport, that extends even to having a backlog of stock hulls lying around, waiting to be filled with <stuff>. In the case of the class A starport, that includes a stock of TNAS certified Jump Drives and drive techs.

Grappling with the issue

If the difference between a class A and a class B starport is a stock of jump drives, then I see an angle I hadn't before considered: the starport is a political entity, as much as an economic entity. Any world with sufficient tech can build jump drives, and personnel will exist who can install them in a hull. Even so, the starport may not be certified to stock them.

OTU versus Not OTU

Since this is a core issue, perhaps I shouldn't have labelled this as Non-OTU. This is a core Traveller concept, that the starport primarily implies build and repair facilities which support trade.

E - a flat space to land and load/unload cargo
D - also some unrefined fuel, so you can leave and sell our valuable goods elsewhere
C - also some light repairs, so you can trade with us even if your ship is a little banged up
B - also refined fuel and boats, so it's even more convenient to trade with us, and we can sell certified smallcraft and stuff
A - also starships, so you can upgrade with a perfectly good starship for even better trade

It's worth discussing how a starport can be subdivided. But, at this stage, it seems that a starport can't be subdivided cleanly without making implications about how things work in Traveller that aren't spelled out in Traveller.

Small Ships and Role-Playing

Maybe the cognitive dissonance comes in when we cross from playing a role-playing game and move into a wargame. Don't wargames tend to be more like a simulation, requiring the appearance of reality on the macro-economic level, than a role-playing game, which is focused on that the players need?

So, perhaps the division is between Small Ships and Big Ships.

 

[atpollard]

I agree with your summary in theory, but question whether any of the Traders and Gunboat Starship designs seem to particularly lend themselves to the sort of modular construction that you are talking about.

So it seems to me that shipyards 'COULD' function like that, but none of the classic ships 'WERE' made that way.
YMMV

 

[robject]

Next Presumption

Re-Use the Base Codes?

Given all of the above, my next test is to use existing base codes as an indicator of build capacity. In short, use them as the extra code I was looking for originally.

No Bases - starport can handle ships up to 1,000 tons.
Scout Base only - starport can handle ships up to 10,000-tons (ref: The Traveller Adventure?).
Naval Base - starport can handle any size ships.
Scout Way Station - probably between a Scout Base and a Naval Base in capacity.
Depot - starport can handle the Death Star, Loeskalth planetoid ships, etc.

 

[McPerth]

Re-Use the Base Codes?

Given all of the above, my next test is to use existing base codes as an indicator of build capacity. In short, use them as the extra code I was looking for originally.

No Bases - starport can handle ships up to 1,000 tons.
Scout Base only - starport can handle ships up to 10,000-tons (ref: The Traveller Adventure?).
Naval Base - starport can handle any size ships.
Scout Way Station - probably between a Scout Base and a Naval Base in capacity.
Depot - starport can handle the Death Star, Loeskalth planetoid ships, etc.

Please, define what do you mean here with handle...

 

[robject]

I agree with your summary in theory, but question whether any of the Traders and Gunboat Starship designs seem to particularly lend themselves to the sort of modular construction that you are talking about.

So it seems to me that shipyards 'COULD' function like that, but none of the classic ships 'WERE' made that way.
YMMV

According to "Classic" Traveller the indication is that the standard hulls, from which our iconic ship designs were built, were indeed made this way. Custom hulls, requiring more time and money to build, were likely outsourced -- I'd say that was usually to the mainworld, but it easily could have been ordered by interstellar post.

 

[robject]

Please, define what do you mean here with handle...

Good question. Nothing sinks a great argument better than forcing one to define his own terms.

Let's brainstorm. Could it be hangarage? Meh - orbital space is free. How about components? Maybe - but again, storage space is free, isn't it? So does it all boil down to economics? Could be - but, reality is messier than simple numbers on a spreadsheet.

I could fall heavily on the "certification" thing, but that seems weak. So I'm still back to economics, which seems like an artificial constraint. I mean, why couldn't a starport buy a hundred Jump drives a year and call itself an "A" starport?

How about handwaves. The support structure required to maintain a Base requires facilities, personnel, logistics, security, all the headaches of a military base with an adjacent major seaport. And each base represents an order of magnitude more infrastructure than the level before.

So, the assumption is that being able to support starship build and repair (of various sizes) depends on infrastructure, but not parts availability. (That last bit is implied by the old line that planets can build ships at their TL, regardless of starport rating).

That implies, for example, that a class 'B' starport with a Naval Base is more generally capable of repairing Battleships than a class 'A' starport with no Naval Base.

How far does that go?

 

[McPerth]

I asked becaus handle might also mean for loading/unleading pourposses, and that could lead us to another discussion...

 

[robject]

I asked becaus handle might also mean for loading/unleading pourposses, and that could lead us to another discussion...

A fun one. A Depot apparently has an entire solar system at its disposal; such a beast could have mammoth facilities. Theoretically, it could have deep space drydocks large enough to swallow a 50-billion-ton planetoid for outfitting as a gigantic starship.

Imagine a military base the "size" of a star system.

 

[atpollard]

Re-Use the Base Codes?

Given all of the above, my next test is to use existing base codes as an indicator of build capacity. In short, use them as the extra code I was looking for originally.

No Bases - starport can handle ships up to 1,000 tons.
Scout Base only - starport can handle ships up to 10,000-tons (ref: The Traveller Adventure?).
Naval Base - starport can handle any size ships.
Scout Way Station - probably between a Scout Base and a Naval Base in capacity.
Depot - starport can handle the Death Star, Loeskalth planetoid ships, etc.

Please, define what do you mean here with handle...

As "an indicator of build capacity", I suggest that "Handle" meant the facilities and equipment to install, repair and remove drives of the appropriate size. With metrics like "1,000 tons" vs "10,000-tons" vs "the Death Star", these Maneuver and/or Jump Drives will differ by orders of magnitude.

As a real world example, George's Garage (where I get my car serviced) could easily remove, rebuild and install any engine from the tiny Smart Car to a 700 CI Hemi with a blower ... if they rolled out the equipment and worked in the yard, they might even be able to work on the engine for a large dump truck. But no matter how much space they have, they are simply not equipped to remove, rebuild and install the giant engines for a Panamax Tanker. The lifts and hoists are too small, the tools are too small ... it is just too big of a job for them.

Likewise, the yard that services Panamax Tankers probably does not rebuild Evenrude Outboard Engines ... they would point you to some smaller facility that deals with that type of product.

So "handle" could be defined as "install, service and replace" with MD only defined by the Class B Starport and JD & MD defined by Class A Starport and the maximum size of the drives defined by the base per robject's list above.

Just a thought.

 

[McPerth]

As "an indicator of build capacity", I suggest that "Handle" meant the facilities and equipment to install, repair and remove drives of the appropriate size. With metrics like "1,000 tons" vs "10,000-tons" vs "the Death Star", these Maneuver and/or Jump Drives will differ by orders of magnitude.

More or less that's what I understood, but I was surprised by the word handle, as we were using shipyard capable, while handle is (as I understand it, remember my language is not english) a more broader term.

IMHO, if shipyards are divorced from starports, then the facilities should have two diferent capabilities: building/repairing capability and cargo handling capability.

An A rated starport in a hi pop world is likely to hold a large volumen of trafic, and handling many and large cargoes, while,if I understood well what's said here, true shipyards for those large ships are quite more scarce, and those able to build military capital ships even so.

That's why I suggested the yard facility roll on post 11 this same thread. With this roll, I guess shipyards will be quite rare, and those capable to really build capital ships (on the hundred thousand line) very rare (as you'd need a Y6 to build them, only A starport, HiTech HI pop have any possibility).

 

[Reban]

More or less that's what I understood, but I was surprised by the word handle, as we were using shipyard capable, while handle is (as I understand it, remember my language is not english) a more broader term.

IMHO, if shipyards are divorced from starports, then the facilities should have two diferent capabilities: building/repairing capability and cargo handling capability.

Actually "handling" would be an important process in ship construction. Current ocean going vessels are constructed using cranes to handle either pre-built modules into position for assembly or for lifting frames and plates into place.

Cranes of the traditional type and grav "sky cranes" would still be useful to handle components in starship construction. For orbital or deep space yards tugs would fill the role of cranes on the ground.

 

[aramis]

I am still plugging away at this, but right now, it gives me a straightforward way of figuring prices and costs.

it's also the wrong way to do it. The imperial credit is, generally, the 1977 US dollar. Specie (Gold, Silver, Platinum, Irridium) conversions don't match, but the trade goods, in general, do. The items in the price lists in the core do, as well.

 

[Reban]

Actually while the thread starts talking about yards that can handle larger displacement tonnage has sent me in the opposite direction (call me awkward).

We've been talking about shipyard facilities in relation to Starport "Yards" but what about the aerospace industry.

Starships of 500 or even 1000 tons could be constructed on the production line method used by Boeing or Airbus. If you look at the construction times for production in quantity it seem possible that this is the method used.

This is best suited to a small ship universe but the essential facilities would look a bit like this:

The two most important things in this process are the skill construction technicians and the jigs. Basically the jig is a form around which the hull is constructed (your standard hulls) and bears the ship as it moves along the production line as it receives major sub-assemblies like power plant, engines etc. until it can support its own weight or the interior is inhabitable enough to let the techs work inside on things like life support and soft furnishings.

Eventually you can roll out a brand new ship to a safe are, power-up the powerplant and take it on its first hop to orbit.

Point is, its an alternate view of "The Yard", its compatible with importing modules (Airbus wings are produced in a different country to the bodies), it draws the facilities into one largish campus or building within the Starport.


Note: I'm saying 500 to 1000 tons because thats somewhere in the same league as a 747, 777, Airbus or C5, not in direct tonnage but in terms of scale. Adding grav tech and other construction techniques might mean you can handle bigger hulls.

 

[Timerover51]

b]Small Ships and Role-Playing[/b]

Maybe the cognitive dissonance comes in when we cross from playing a role-playing game and move into a wargame. Don't wargames tend to be more like a simulation, requiring the appearance of reality on the macro-economic level, than a role-playing game, which is focused on that the players need?

So, perhaps the division is between Small Ships and Big Ships.

I would argue that the Small Ship universe is best for role-playing, while your Big Ship universe is for wargaming.

Yes, you can have a character who is an Admiral commanding a major fleet, but at that point, the player is in the same position as someone who is playing Imperium, Star Fleet Battles, Warp War, or a similar space combat war game.