Non OTU: Divorcing Yards from the Port

[HG_B]

1st, I look at TL + pop as the main determining factors. From that & the local (interstellar) political situation I decide on the Gov/Mil yards. Then I decide on whether or not the situation calls for civilian construction facilities.

There are always some repair options at ports depending on their rating.

 

[BillDowns]

If they are just high tech hangers and a skilled workforce do they need to be divorced from the Starport descriptor, after all in the Age of Sail all but the most basic harbor had a shipwright and a chandler.

Hence my earlier concern about splitting off yards from Starports.

Just as an example with wet navy, the hulls and the ship overall are built in one place, but everything that goes in it are built elsewhere.

OTOH, and here I go waffling again, a yard would not necessarily be dependant on the starport. Example: the Spruance class destroyers were built in Pascagoula, Mississippi which otherwise had only minor levels of shipping. New York City would likely be a Class A port (in Traveller terms), but it has very little construction going on.

 

[McPerth]

No shipyard building modern ships builds all the electronics, misc fixtures, etc. Nor likely casts the steel or makes the glass, etc. Nor makes the numerous motors and pumps that are used - not to mention the boilers, generators and engines are likely built somewhere else except in exotic (mostly military) applications. Extended on that, most are very modular today - with fixtures and fittings already inside before combining together. Though I believe most of that is done at the local shipyard, the technique certainly lends itself to the shipyard just being the place everything is put together...

The only absolute necessity I have for a Traveller shipyard is final completion and launch - everything else can come from other star systems if need be. Ex: one system may be renown for its 200 and 400 dton bridges - and ship them in very large vessels plying a multi-system route. Maybe they had a shipyard once, maybe they never did - but they have the TL, manpower and experience to make a product in demand...

True, but I guess the cargo costs on earth are nowere as high as in Traveller to move them to other systems...

That's why I agree with Hans in the fact that shipyards need a mínimum pop to be able to work, becaus of all this auxiliary industry needed for them to be operative, and that's why I ruled out on non industrial worlds in the suggestion I made earlier.

 

[HG_B]

True, but I guess the cargo costs on earth are nowere as high as in Traveller to move them to other systems...

That might be incorrect. A friend of mine just recently shipped his small car from LA to London. All told it cost around $1,700. Volume wise it was about 1 Dton. This was done on a bid basis. Mass shipping is probably ~1/2 this rate. Very much in line with Trav shipping rates.

 

[McPerth]

That might be incorrect. A friend of mine just recently shipped his small car from LA to London. All told it cost around $1,700. Volume wise it was about 1 Dton. This was done on a bid basis. Mass shipping is probably ~1/2 this rate. Very much in line with Trav shipping rates.

And how are those $1,700 in 1980 US$ (the equivalent to a Cr, as CT stated)?

And that was for a finished product that had to be handled with some care, not for parts or raw materials that can be more easily packed. While the car itself may amount to 1/2 dton, I guess the mount of volumen the ship had to devote to it was more than just this 1/2 dton.

 

[HG_B]

And how are those $1,700 in 1980 US$ (the equivalent to a Cr, as CT stated)?

The CURRENT edition of the game is MgT. See POST 2000 freight charges in that system.

 

[Reban]

The question of shipping in pre-built components and modules from other systems has made me think about the following:

In a society that has lived through a Long Night scenario, will they make an effort to provide every (reasonable) outpost of the civilization with the ability to construct and maintain interstellar shipping?​

In other words, if you live on a planet far from Capital or far from a high TL planet capable of shipping you components, would you insure that you can build and maintain a starship so that in the event of some Imperium wide catastrophe you can keep lines of communication and trade open and not get cut off?

Should every world, with a high enough TL, in a stellar empire have the ability to build ships.....just in case? It might not be a conscious decision but a characteristic of a society.

 

[HG_B]

Should every world, with a high enough TL, in a stellar empire have the ability to build ships.....just in case? It might not be a conscious decision but a characteristic of a society.

Most worlds of a high enough TL & pop (to support the divergent skill sets needed) WILL be ale to construct star ships. No question about it.

 

[robject]

The CURRENT edition of the game is MgT. See POST 2000 freight charges in that system.

And Traveller5, of course.

One Credit is roughly the value of a short period (a quarter-hour) of unskilled labor.

So, four Credits = 1 hour at U.S.' minimum wage, which apparently is $7.25.
So, one Credit is, roughly, $1.80 in 2013 dollars. Call it $2.


So, $1,700 in 1980 US$ is... well, minimum wage was $3.10 per hour, so...
1700/3.10 = appx 550 hours at minimum wage.
= appx 2200 Credits.

 

[rancke]

Most worlds of a high enough TL & pop (to support the divergent skill sets needed) WILL be ale to construct star ships. No question about it.

Thjere's even a rule in HG about it.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

The CURRENT edition of the game is MgT. See POST 2000 freight charges in that system.

Agreed (with Robject permision, as he's right T5 is also), but, AFAIK there's no Cr/$ equivalent given on MgT, so we'll stay on the good monthly maintenance expneses given in MgT CB for a Soc 7 person (Cr 1500). So, thcost to move 1 dton one parsec would be about 2/3 of a Soc 7 (middle class) monthly maintenance expenses. What would the equivalent in US$ today (I frankly don't know)?

See also that using MgT (IDK about T5), the cost would vary according how far each jump goes (1000 Cr/dton at J1, 1600 at J4), adding complexity to the equation.

And let me point that this is not a MgT specific thread (nor in the MgT forum).

 

[HG_B]

And Traveller5, of course.

No. I can't can't currently buy and get a copy. So, not yet the "current" version.

 

[HG_B]

And let me point that this is not a MgT specific thread (nor in the MgT forum).

And, let me point out that this isn't a CT specific thread...

 

[BytePro]

True, but I guess the cargo costs on earth are nowere as high as in Traveller to move them to other systems...

Not really seeing that as relevant...

In CT HG a bridge costs 5,000 Cr per ton of ship. A 40 dton bridge for a 200 ton ship costs 1 MCr. Even applying LBB2 flat rate rules, at 1,000 Cr per ton and assuming some waste space - that's less than 5% of the cost (per trip). Given the nature of the business, I wouldn't expect the companies would have to charge themselves the 'standard' freight rate, either. Not making any profit, even making losses, for certain parts is still okay - as long as the shipyard broke even or made some profit. Ships are big industry and a system having a shipyard is a big deal - even if just politically. Heck, the shipyard can be subsidized for all that matters. Look into the federal subsidizing of U.S. shipyards - and probably most countries in the world. All good rationals, btw, for the Class A/B ratings.

Back to just the raw numbers - heck, entire non-planetoid hulls are worth multiple interstellar shippings with costs starting at 0.1 MCr per ton (significantly more with armor).

Then there is the 'expensive' stuff like drives, power plants, computers - heck most stuff is priced in millions of credits per ton...

Explain that logic again?

 

[aramis]

True, but I guess the cargo costs on earth are nowere as high as in Traveller to move them to other systems...

That's why I agree with Hans in the fact that shipyards need a mínimum pop to be able to work, becaus of all this auxiliary industry needed for them to be operative, and that's why I ruled out on non industrial worlds in the suggestion I made earlier.

actually, shipping costs per Td are only about twice the costs of shipping from China to Virginia...

 

[HG_B]

actually, shipping costs per Td are only about twice the costs of shipping from China to Virginia...

Wow! Trav rates are bargain basement.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

What would the equivalent in US$ today (I frankly don't know)?

Wellllllll..., probably more than that, given today's gas prices. A parsec is a fer piece, even at 50 miles to the gallon. And, you're gonna need to provide more than a few pizzas and a couple of six-packs if your buddies pitch in and help. I also don't think U-Haul had that sort of thing in mind when they said "unlimited mileage".

 

[Timerover51]

Since the discussion has gotten to prices, here is something that I posted on another thread to add to the mix.

In Research Station Gamma, a Droyne coyn of solid gold is said to be weigh 2 ounces, presumably Troy weight, and be worth 400 Imperial Credits, with gold at 200 Credits per once. The Library Data in the MegaTraveller Imperial Encyclopedia gives the same bullion value for a gold Droyne coyn. In 1980, the average value for gold was $612.56 per ounce, but 1980 was an exceptional year, and the value of gold dropped drastically after that, being valued in a range from roughly $300 to $400 per ounce. In 2006, the average value was again up to $603 per ounce and has been steadily climbing since. If you assume an inflation rate of 5% in the 32 years since 1980 for the Imperium, that 200 Cr per ounce would now be 953 Cr per ounce. On that basis, 1 Imperial Credit, on a Tech Level 15 World be worth about $2 US, if I am correctly figuring a base Imperial Credit level for valuation of Tech Level 15.

Up to 1934, US currency was backed by gold at a rate of $20.67 per troy ounce. In 1934, the US devalued the dollar and pegged it at $35 per troy ounce. That held through 1971, when the US dollar was allowed to float verses the price of an ounce of gold.

Based on the prices for an ounce of gold given, in 1920, an Imperial Credit would have been worth about ten cents, while from 1934 to 1971, an Imperial Credit would have been worth about seventeen and a half cents. In 1978, shortly after Traveller came out, gold was an average of $193 for the year, or about par with the US Dollar.

Up through roughly Tech Level 5 to 6, I assume that a society or planet is likely to use some form of metal-based fixed currency. That is based on Earth practice, but then, that is the only basis anyone has to judge society. The system works fine for current prices, but means that earlier than Tech Level 5, Imperial Credits are not valued too highly, but that also matches history, as paper currency was not totally trusted.

I am still plugging away at this, but right now, it gives me a straightforward way of figuring prices and costs.

 

[rancke]

actually, shipping costs per Td are only about twice the costs of shipping from China to Virginia...

Yes, but for shipyards located in other star systems (without significant local populations), you're shipping the parts for the shipyard, the workers to build the shipyard, the workers to man the shipyard, the parts that are assembled at the shipyard, and the guards to protect the ships and the yard against raiders. You need some concrete reason to go to that added expense. Advanced military bases would work for military repair facilities. Secret military bases that the enemy don't know the location of might work for ship construction. And you have the taxpayer to support the added expense. But Class A starports means civilian ship construction. And civilian starships means that, subsidies aside, in the end the customers have to be willing to pay the added expense.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Up through roughly Tech Level 5 to 6, I assume that a society or planet is likely to use some form of metal-based fixed currency. That is based on Earth practice, but then, that is the only basis anyone has to judge society. The system works fine for current prices, but means that earlier than Tech Level 5, Imperial Credits are not valued too highly, but that also matches history, as paper currency was not totally trusted.

A lot of things other than metal have been used for money in Earth's history. But even assuming that metal is the obvious choice up through TL 5 or 6, that would only apply to the relative handful of worlds where the population lived in isolation. Most worlds have access to all the knowledge and experience Terra and Vland and other homeworlds gained concerning various currencies in thousands of years of history. Any society that believes that money isn't wealth in itself but tokens of wealth would have a wealth (so to speak) of choices other than metal.

One of my TL2 societies uses handcarved disks of a very hard ivory-like substance. On the obverse is the denomination and an unique number. On the reverse is an elaborate pattern carved by a skilled craftsman. The higher the denomination, the more elaborate the pattern. The intent is that it would take a counterfeiter more time to carve a counterfeit disk than it would be worth (also, trade in the characteristic ivory is a government monopoly).


Hans