Non OTU: Divorcing Yards from the Port

[robject]

If I were to divorce shipyard code from starport code, how would I best go about it?

1. What is a reasonable, but not too fiddly, way to represent shipyard?
2. Where should this code sit in the UWP?


Assume #1 is a letter code from A-E and perhaps X for "none" (seems like 'E' would also mean "none"...)?
A=starship construction, major repairs
B=spacecraft construction, major repairs
C=routine maintenance overhaul
D=minor repairs
E=none
X=none?

How would I generate this number, presumably from starport code, TL, and world population, perhaps?


#2. Should this code come immediately after the starport letter itself (my first guess), or should it be near base codes, or should it go elsewhere?

Example. Say I've got a "C" class starport with no shipyard ("X"). Where would it look best?

#1 Rob's World   0101   CX-677788-A  S     [...Trade Codes...]      A PBG  
#2 Rob's World   0101   C-677788-A  XS     [...Trade Codes...]      A PBG  
#3 Rob's World   0101   C-677788-A  S     [...Trade Codes...]      A XPBG

 

[atpollard]

STARPORTS:
Class C+ Starport = Routine Maintenance Available; Downport and Orbital Shuttles Available
Class B+ Starport = Highport and Downport Available
Class A Starport = Highport at jump limit; drop tanks available; Lighters supported (up to 1000 dT modular containers handled)

SHIPYARDS:
TL 9+ PLUS Trade Code = Industrial
Winner, winner, chicken dinner ... we have a Shipyard!

 

[curmudgeon]

I would say you would want the code as close to the starport code as possible. That being the case, I would say your #1 example of Rob's World would be best. Also, couldn't an E class Shipyard be a minor parts available but DIY service? Then X could be no parts, no service.

 

[Timerover51]

If I were to divorce shipyard code from starport code, how would I best go about it?

1. What is a reasonable, but not too fiddly, way to represent shipyard?
2. Where should this code sit in the UWP?


Assume #1 is a letter code from A-E and perhaps X for "none" (seems like 'E' would also mean "none"...)?
A=starship construction, major repairs
B=spacecraft construction, major repairs
C=routine maintenance overhaul
D=minor repairs
E=none
X=none?

How would I generate this number, presumably from starport code, TL, and world population, perhaps?


#2. Should this code come immediately after the starport letter itself (my first guess), or should it be near base codes, or should it go elsewhere?

Example. Say I've got a "C" class starport with no shipyard ("X"). Where would it look best?

#1 Rob's World   0101   CX-677788-A  S     [...Trade Codes...]      A PBG  
#2 Rob's World   0101   C-677788-A  XS     [...Trade Codes...]      A PBG  
#3 Rob's World   0101   C-677788-A  S     [...Trade Codes...]      A XPBG

As the principal difference between system ships and star ships is the jump drive, I am not too sure about distinguishing between ship yard capability based on star verses space ships. I would lean more towards a size differential.

Class A yards being able to build all sizes of ships, system and star.
Class B yards building ships up to 1,000 dtons (I am a small ship universe guy.)
Class C yards mainly concentrating on maintenance and repair, but able to build ships to 400 dtons. (Subsidized Merchant size)
Class D yards are routine maintenance and basic repair only with no construction ability. Standard components only available for repair.
Class E yards have standard components available but ship crew does the repair and maintenance. Extensive repairs on jump and maneuver drives not possible without components being brought in from elsewhere.

Class D and E yards can be found on worlds of less than Tech Level 9, and are dependent on imported components. Maybe have a "m" modifier indicating that the yard can produce military ships.

That is a "quick and dirty off-the-top-of-my-head" answer. I could add some population requirements but those would complicate it a bit.

 

[robject]

As the principal difference between system ships and star ships is the jump drive, I am not too sure about distinguishing between ship yard capability based on star verses space ships. I would lean more towards a size differential.

That's a clever idea. So the starport code gets to keep the concept of "jump drives available", while the shipyard code represents capacity (even in absolute tons) or ship handling capability.

X: Nothing
E: Parts, no labor
D: "Adventure-class" ships (e.g. small starships)
C: "Cruiser Escorts" (bigger than players' ships, smaller than cruisers)
B: Cruisers
A: Capital ships

 

[epicenter00]

It seems that shipyards are fairly rare in the Imperium.

To preserve the readability of the UWP (not that I think they're too readable in the first place), I'd really suggest putting in the presence of a shipyard and what it can do as a trade code. Find some letter that isn't already used, perhaps "Y" for "yard"? Then some notation like:

Y:1

In typical Traveller style, this difficult to read code means "A shipyard that can produce ships 100 dtons and less." If the shipyard produce a given component would be dependent upon the Tech Level of the world. If the TL is too low, then the shipyard can install the item but has to have it manufactured elsewhere.

 

[BillDowns]

I am not certain about splitting off yards, but if you do, it seems to me that a yard would be a "base". So, to combine a couple of posts

Find some letter that isn't already used, perhaps "Y" for "yard"? Then some notation like:

Y:1

X: Nothing
E: Parts, no labor
D: "Adventure-class" ships (e.g. small starships)
C: "Cruiser Escorts" (bigger than players' ships, smaller than cruisers)
B: Cruisers
A: Capital ships

How about a "Base" code of YA for a Class A Yard. Although, I think numbers would be better for robjects' classifications. Assigning numbers in reverse order, then that would Y1 for the best yard class.

 

[Timerover51]

That's a clever idea. So the starport code gets to keep the concept of "jump drives available", while the shipyard code represents capacity (even in absolute tons) or ship handling capability.

X: Nothing
E: Parts, no labor
D: "Adventure-class" ships (e.g. small starships)
C: "Cruiser Escorts" (bigger than players' ships, smaller than cruisers)
B: Cruisers
A: Capital ships

Basically, the shipyard code would show the maximum size of ship that can be built in a protected area, i.e. indoors, in the yard. You might want to limit non-streamlined ships to Class A and B yards, indicating an orbital building capacity, or require a vacuum or near-vacuum world.

I specify built in a protected area, as many real world shipyards building water-faring ships build them out of doors. Aircraft are built inside of a building for protection from the elements. Check out some of the photos made of WW2 aircraft being mass-produced. There are some good ones in volume 6 of Craven and Cate, THE ARMY AIR FORCES In World War I1, page 316. They show a mass-assembly line of B-24 Liberators being built. It gives some idea as to the size of building needed. Repair facilities would also require large enclosed areas.

 

[robject]

Good idea, Epicenter. How about this:

Comment Code 'Ya': starport comes with shipyard. Capacity depends on external factors (population, world importance, etc).

Rob's World   0101   C-677788-A  S    Ag Ri [b][color=red]Ya[/color][/b]           A PBG

 

[robject]

I am not certain about splitting off yards, but if you do, it seems to me that a yard would be a "base".

Bill, that's even better.

Since I do things the "T5 way", bases stack. So I have no problem adding a 'Y' to the base code string.

Rob's World   0101   C-677788-A  SY    Ag Ri            A PBG

 

[McPerth]

SHIPYARDS:
TL 9+ PLUS Trade Code = Industrial
Winner, winner, chicken dinner ... we have a Shipyard!

I disagree here, as if this is accepted only industrial worlds (and so HiPop with no breatheable atmosphere) could have them. As an example, neither Vland nor Earth would have yards. as their atmospheres are not tainted, as so cannot be industrial.

I'd say better only possible in TL 9+ and non lowpop nor no-ind (so pop7+)

It seems that shipyards are fairly rare in the Imperium.

To preserve the readability of the UWP (not that I think they're too readable in the first place), I'd really suggest putting in the presence of a shipyard and what it can do as a trade code. Find some letter that isn't already used, perhaps "Y" for "yard"? Then some notation like:

Y:1

In typical Traveller style, this difficult to read code means "A shipyard that can produce ships 100 dtons and less." If the shipyard produce a given component would be dependent upon the Tech Level of the world. If the TL is too low, then the shipyard can install the item but has to have it manufactured elsewhere.

If so, the nuber behind the Y sould be used as the Pop digit to reflect the largest ship yard capability. Y1 would mean maximum 10 dtons (light fighters and some parts), Y2 maximum 100 dtons (up to a scout/seeker), Y3 up to 1000 dton (most players ships), and so on.

Rob's World   0101   C-677788-A  S(Y2)    Ag Ri            A PBG

Yard number could be a roll like 2d6-20 + pop (0 or less means no yard), with modifiers for TL (e.g. (TL-9)/2) and starport class (e.g. +2 if A, -2 if C, no yard for lower starports). All numbers are taken now from my hat, and so open to discusion.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

This is from MTU

Starports:
Starbases or Starports are rated as; A, B, C, F, M, O, P, R, S and X according to the size and extent of the facilities presented. Starports are established for the express purpose of fostering interstellar trade and commerce. They are governed by treaties and Interstellar laws which tailor to the interstellar community.

Code Description
A Excellent quality installation. Refined fuel, annual maintenance, and overhaul are available. Shipyards present capable of both starship and spacecraft construction. Repair facilities can handle both starship and spacecraft. Docking and landing complexes able to handle the largest of ships.
B Good quality installation. Refined fuel, annual maintenance and overhaul available. Shipyards capable of spacecraft construction only. Repair facilities can handle the needs of starship and spacecraft. Docking and landing complexes able to handle large and medium size vessels.
C Routine. Refined fuel is available. Reasonable repair facilities are available. Large components necessary to repair starships must be order then shipped to the starport. Docking and landing complexes able to handle medium and small size vessels.
F Frontier. Only unrefined fuel is available. No repair facilities are available. Landing pads and runways able to handle shuttles and landing craft.
M Military. Bases operated by the military and are off limits to most private craft except in case of extreme emergencies.
O Outstations or Orbital facilities. A space station geared to handle interstellar trade. Much depends on the commitment of the race to the quality of the service provided. The rule of thumb is the larger the station, the better the station services are.
P Private Installation. Usually corporation creation such facilities are intended to handle their needs when doing business on a world. Most private craft are turned away even in case of emergencies
S Spaceports foster in-system travel and commerce. These facilities are not capable of repairing starships but are able handle most other needs of a starship.
X None. No allowances are made for starship landing. Survey beacons in orbit may or may not be present.

I bring this to the conversation because Military, private installations and spaceport may contain yards as well.

Another reason why there are so few yards depicted in Traveller is because Class B starports maybe constructing parts for assembly at Class A Starports.

 

[BillDowns]

Okay, now I am going to waffle

If one uses a numeric code for the yard capacity, then placing after the starport code would work, too.

0 = No yard facilities
1 = smallcraft only
2 = small ships
3 = medium ships
4 = large ships

where small, medium, large depends on your desired ship sizing.

Then you could have

Rob's World   0101   C2-677788-A  S    Ag Ri            A PBG

 

[Carlobrand]

If I were to divorce shipyard code from starport code ...

What?! I didn't even realize they were fighting. Oh, the kids will be heartbroken!

Umm, why are we extracting the shipyard code from the port code? What does that make possible?

 

[Ishmael]

I'd generate the starport with dm's based on pop to get an idea of the level of traffic which would then be used to find trade codes, etc.

then I'd generate the tech level of the world based on the port type and use that tech to determine what tech level ships a shipyard could work on. Population would determine the size of the ship it could work on as per your favorite ruleset for such things.

Yards are separate from ports and vice versa
I'd discard the arbitrary distinction between yards that work on jump ships and yards that don't.... if the yard can support tech 'x', then any tech 'x' ship/boat can be worked on provided it is smaller than the size of the yard.

 

[robject]

Okay, now I am going to waffle

If you can waffle, then so can I.

Let the numeric code represent yard-hangar space tonnage, in powers of ten.

0 = No yard facilities
1 = 10s of tons
2 = 100s of tons
3 = 1000s of tons
4 = 10kts of tons
... and so on ...

Actually Bill, I like your scheme better (not pegging numbers on anything) because it's flexible. However, I feel like numbers shouldn't be used unless they mean something numeric

 

[BytePro]

Just some thoughts based on how I handle Starports and UWP, IMTU [Note CT LBB1-3, 5 and 6 only]...

Shipyards and repair facilities (shipyards = full repair), along with fuel are what determines Starport Type. The difference between A & B is the ability to deal with a Jump Drive. 'Excellent' = can build starships. 'Good'= can only build spaceships. 'Routine'= has no shipyard. [C offers 'Refined Fuel' as well, IMTU, but lower availability]. Note, Naval bases require shipyards (From RAW). I don't, nor would separate shipyard. However, I do quantify the shipyard - for maximum hull size, output rate, and capacity. [Just as Starports get quantified on max hull size and on traffic volume/quantity supported.]

Unfortunately, my 'notes' are in source code (and I have yet to redo these things for my more recent games...).

For max shipyard hull size capacity I used the Tonnage Code. (From HG. - Ditto for Starport)

TL is adjusted by Starport Type - I wouldn't create a circular relationship.

Normally, Starship Shipyards (Class A) would not be below TL 8 (+6 DM), however, the TL adjustment for Gov Type D could lead to a TL 6 one. One could also have a TL 4 Class B...

I recall 'improving' this by changing Starport DMs (+2 to A, B, C and D). I also 'improved' population (fewer lower pop and higher overall pops supported) and moved the +2 and +4 up several places and put in +1s (IIRC).

TL can mean that the actual Drives (and likely expertise and supporting equipment) are imported for higher rated drives and the like.

Determining Hull Size and other capacities, I'm not sure how I was doing it, but it was akin to TL - with a DM table based on several factors, including Pop, LL, Gov and TL.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Depending on the vagaries of your universe, determine what minimum TL's exist for your shipyard components. Once TL is determined, downgrade shipyard accordingly, unless in your universe, shipyards are rated independent of TL. Oh the same thing with population, if that is a factor in your determinations. If you only have a pop code of 2 (100+ people), they might not be building a Tigress class too quickly.

 

[Reban]

Just throwing this in, but we currently have several (admittedly low tech) Spaceports on Earth and as far as I know all of them have the facilities and ability to assemble pre-fabricated parts into spacecraft or launch vehicles.

When the Starport descriptor talks about Yard facilities does it mean what I see on the map at Kennedy Space Center? I see the Vehicle Assembly Building VAB, Processing buildings, a Vertical Processing Facility and hazardous materials handling etc. Most construction takes place elsewhere before final assembly.

Yard facilities in orbit might be just a volume of controlled space in orbit or farther out where modules are brought to be welded together or maybe a space station that provides a scaffolding structure for frame and plate construction.

What I'm saying is "How complex and extensive do Shipyard facilities have to be". Are they big complicated facilities with lots of buildings and all the aerospace industry in one place or are they just final assembly and repair facilities with a skilled workforce but supported by a wider industrial base on a world or in the wider sector?

If they are just high tech hangers and a skilled workforce do they need to be divorced from the Starport descriptor, after all in the Age of Sail all but the most basic harbor had a shipwright and a chandler.

 

[BytePro]

No shipyard building modern ships builds all the electronics, misc fixtures, etc. Nor likely casts the steel or makes the glass, etc. Nor makes the numerous motors and pumps that are used - not to mention the boilers, generators and engines are likely built somewhere else except in exotic (mostly military) applications. Extended on that, most are very modular today - with fixtures and fittings already inside before combining together. Though I believe most of that is done at the local shipyard, the technique certainly lends itself to the shipyard just being the place everything is put together...

The only absolute necessity I have for a Traveller shipyard is final completion and launch - everything else can come from other star systems if need be. Ex: one system may be renown for its 200 and 400 dton bridges - and ship them in very large vessels plying a multi-system route. Maybe they had a shipyard once, maybe they never did - but they have the TL, manpower and experience to make a product in demand...