Stateroom size - 4 tons too much?

[aramis]

Housing Codes (like HUD) had requirements for 1 room per person in dwellings to make it POSSIBLE to go and be alone. [I have not kept track of changes to the code]. It was a mental health issue for stuffing people into apartments.

Anchorage Municipal code 15.10.130 sets minimums for a city where many people spend almost no time outside.

Minimum sleeping room is 70 ft², or 50 ft² per person , and 7' tall, in Anchorage Municipal Code. If a bunk bed is used, the per person can be reduced to 35 ft² per person in that bunk bed. Storage space must be at least 4'. A shower and water closet in a lockable room with privacy is required, as well, and must be functional. Each separate rental must be securable.

So... 35×7 is 210 + 35 = 245 ft³... 6.93763m³ or right about 1/2 Td per person for the bedroom assuming bunks.

The minimum overall habitation is 50×(2+persons) ft², or at least one habitable room per 2 persons at the above rates. 50x7 is 350 ft³, or 9.9109 m³... about 0.70792142857 Td. ... so 2 Td per person is relatively comfortable. (Many alaskans live at those densities, but decent apartments are considerably larger. About double.

Now, in Oregon, I got away with 2 teens and 1 adult in a 40' RV, 7.5'×35'×6'6" interior in 3 rooms - Master bedroom, living room, and bathroom, with the kitchen in the living room. The need for time outside was constantly present... 2 to a room.
Wasn't easy - especially given 3 persons with bipolar disorder.

 

[mike wightman]

If you convert to GT
500 cubic feet per displacement ton, 10'x5'x10', you get roughly the same numbers.

These days I find it easier to imagine the 10' by 5' floor area.

 

[TamsinP]

If you convert to GT
500 cubic feet per displacement ton, 10'x5'x10', you get roughly the same numbers.

These days I find it easier to imagine the 10' by 5' floor area.

Minor correction - that's GRT (Gross Register Tonnage - 1 GRT = 100 cu ft).

GT (Gross Tonnage) uses a non-linear formula: GT = V * (0.2 + (0.02 * log10(V)))

to calculate volume from GT, this online calculator is handy: https://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/volume/tonnage/tonnage-to-m3.html?u=tonnage&v=24

 

[atpollard]

Minor correction - that's GRT (Gross Register Tonnage - 1 GRT = 100 cu ft).

GT (Gross Tonnage) uses a non-linear formula: GT = V * (0.2 + (0.02 * log10(V)))

to calculate volume from GT, this online calculator is handy: https://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/volume/tonnage/tonnage-to-m3.html?u=tonnage&v=24

I think "GT" might just be GURPS Traveller in this case (which uses Feet instead of Meters for dTons).
[Although, personally, I think it is important to know how many casks of wine will fit in the hold of MY Starship, so I LIKE the OLD TUNNAGE ratings. - Go Star Vikings! ]

 

[atpollard]

Minimum sleeping room is 70 ft², or 50 ft² per person , and 7' tall, in Anchorage Municipal Code. If a bunk bed is used, the per person can be reduced to 35 ft² per person in that bunk bed. Storage space must be at least 4'. A shower and water closet in a lockable room with privacy is required, as well, and must be functional. Each separate rental must be securable.

So... 35×7 is 210 + 35 = 245 ft³... 6.93763m³ or right about 1/2 Td per person for the bedroom assuming bunks.

The minimum overall habitation is 50×(2+persons) ft², or at least one habitable room per 2 persons at the above rates. 50x7 is 350 ft³, or 9.9109 m³... about 0.70792142857 Td. ... so 2 Td per person is relatively comfortable. (Many alaskans live at those densities, but decent apartments are considerably larger. About double.

Converting Starship dTons based on 3 meter Deck to Deck heights with Housing Code dTons based on 7 foot floor to ceiling heights is a bit "apples to oranges". That's why I stick with the floor area to floor area comparisons with 50 sf = 1 dTon in both cases.

35 square feet per person = 35/50 = 0.7 dTons per person.

So a 2 dTon "Stateroom" [Bedroom/sleeping area] is a bit small at a 13' x 15' bedroom with another 200 sf of "Bathroom and Kitchen and Living Room and Hallway" to go along with it. Not "impossibly small", but hardly "LUXURIOUS" for $50,000 per week rental [High Passage] or $40,000 per week discounted [Middle Passage].

Crew can get by with 0.5 dTons (25 sf) of sleeping area per person @ 5'x10' x 2 people with bunk beds or 10'x10' with 4 beds ... with another 0.5 dTons of "living space" per person. It is Commercial Passengers that would balk at "Navy" accommodations for Concorde SST prices.

 

[TamsinP]

I think "GT" might just be GURPS Traveller in this case (which uses Feet instead of Meters for dTons).
[Although, personally, I think it is important to know how many casks of wine will fit in the hold of MY Starship, so I LIKE the OLD TUNNAGE ratings. - Go Star Vikings! ]

D'oh! Of course! I've clearly been spending far too much time reading about real-world ships.

 

[TamsinP]

Converting Starship dTons based on 3 meter Deck to Deck heights with Housing Code dTons based on 7 foot floor to ceiling heights is a bit "apples to oranges". That's why I stick with the floor area to floor area comparisons with 50 sf = 1 dTon in both cases.

35 square feet per person = 35/50 = 0.7 dTons per person.

So a 2 dTon "Stateroom" [Bedroom/sleeping area] is a bit small at a 13' x 15' bedroom with another 200 sf of "Bathroom and Kitchen and Living Room and Hallway" to go along with it. Not "impossibly small", but hardly "LUXURIOUS" for $50,000 per week rental [High Passage] or $40,000 per week discounted [Middle Passage].

Crew can get by with 0.5 dTons (25 sf) of sleeping area per person @ 5'x10' x 2 people with bunk beds or 10'x10' with 4 beds ... with another 0.5 dTons of "living space" per person. It is Commercial Passengers that would balk at "Navy" accommodations for Concorde SST prices.

Well, the 3m deck height would include the space above ceiling/below floor where services run and maybe the life-support plant is held. Given that, you could assume a floor-to-ceiling height of 2.1-2.4m (7-8 foot).

 

[atpollard]

Well, the 3m deck height would include the space above ceiling/below floor where services run and maybe the life-support plant is held. Given that, you could assume a floor-to-ceiling height of 2.1-2.4m (7-8 foot).

I agree (that's how it has traditionally been interpreted in things like 'Traders and Gunboats'. whether that stands up to scrutiny is another argument for another topic), however, passengers and crew get persnickity if you start excluding "life support" from their tonnage and then just omit it from the ship design. It was increasing floor area by calculating displacement as ceiling to floor instead of floor to floor that I was cautioning against.

 

[infojunky]

Just a amusing note, if you use a mass instead of volume basis, the 4 tons is more plastic number...

 

[Jame]

I always figured that one could put more than 2 people in a stateroom if you have 4 tons of volume. Though it's best if they're a family.

 

[Spinward Flow]

I always figured that one could put more than 2 people in a stateroom if you have 4 tons of volume.

Temporarily ... like in an evacuation context ... sure.
Long term ... as a matter of routine and standard practice ... not so much.

 

[Jame]

Temporarily ... like in an evacuation context ... sure.
Long term ... as a matter of routine and standard practice ... not so much.

No, more than 2 people as a long term basis, with no more than standard life support.

 

[Spinward Flow]

No, more than 2 people as a long term basis, with no more than standard life support.

Does the phrase, "sweatshop in a broom closet" hold meaning for you?

 

[Jame]

Does the phrase, "sweatshop in a broom closet" hold meaning for you?

This phrase, it does not mean what you think it means.

 

[Condottiere]

If you're just using it for sleeping, you can squeeze more out of the stateroom lemon by allocating the juice to the commonwealth.

 

[sudnadja]

Wife and I have been living full time RVers for the last 8-9 months .
Interior is 2.4 meters wide, 8 meters from back to the driving area, and about 2.4 meters floor to ceiling. If you add in the under-floor utilities, call it 3 meters.
I read that as 4 tons, but it includes the galley, kitchen table and couch.

The breakout is from stern to stem is:
2.4w x 2 meters long : bedroom.
2.4w, 1 meter long: lavatory on the port side, shower on the starboard side, aisle between. Sliding doors fore and aft.
2.4w x 2 meters long: starboard side : closet and fridge, and main door.. port side stove/oven/microwave and kitchen sink
2.4w x 3 meters: starboard side couch, port side table with bench seats
2.4wx 1 meters "cockpit"

To me, the "stateroom" part wouldn't include the galley... so 2.4x (bedroom & bathroom = 3) is 1.6 tons.
I guess that matches to a small craft cabin?

I guess the 4 tons for the stateroom is including the galley and such?

4 DTons in a 100 ton scout takes up more of the 'useful' room than you'd think



This with 4x3 1.5m squares 2.07 meters high (56 cubic meters or 4 Dtons at 14.0 m^3 per dton). The tapered wings and nose are difficult to effectively use, on a ship as small as a Scout, you might be better off with a semi-roomy common area and then staterooms barely big enough to sleep in.

 

[Grav_Moped]

@sudnadja

That was an approach I tried, but rejected, when I did my redesign: sleeping niches at the outer edges of the rooms (no bunk beds!) and slightly taller spaces inboard, adjacent to the central corridor. The probem with that is that it's difficult to depict on normal deck plans....

 

[aramis]

4 DTons in a 100 ton scout takes up more of the 'useful' room than you'd think

View attachment 4543

This with 4x3 1.5m squares 2.07 meters high (56 cubic meters or 4 Dtons at 14.0 m^3 per dton). The tapered wings and nose are difficult to effectively use, on a ship as small as a Scout, you might be better off with a semi-roomy common area and then staterooms barely big enough to sleep in.

THe 4 Td is not supposed to be a single room. Only half of it is.
The rest is commons.
My blocky R2 design has this huge common area of 20 Td... and the staterooms all flank it, p/s.
So, half that volume is the common room in front of the engineering, plus the halls. (See the CT instructions on deckplans. TTB 67, rc)

When allocating space within the ship for deck plans, assume that only a portion of stateroom tonnage must actually be in staterooms; the remainder should be used for common areas and other accommodations for the crew.