Stateroom size - 4 tons too much?

[Spinward Flow]

Where are the ENGINEERS and MEDICS on a 1000 dTon ship according to LBB 2?

Engineers have workstations in the engineering drive bays (1 engineer crew position per 35 tons of drives).
Medics have med bay stations carved out of the stateroom budget for crew (it's not "extra" per se, more like the med bay is taken out of the "common area" pool generated by having multiple staterooms for crews).

Presumably there is a workstation on the bridge for the Chief Engineer (which can be "optionally manned" when they're not down in engineering). Medics do not get a bridge workstation assigned to them, although they have been known to come up to the bridge to engage in witty banter with the captain and first officer from time to time.

 

[atpollard]

Engineers have workstations in the engineering drive bays (1 engineer crew position per 35 tons of drives).
Medics have med bay stations carved out of the stateroom budget for crew (it's not "extra" per se, more like the med bay is taken out of the "common area" pool generated by having multiple staterooms for crews).

I love that idea and it is very "Star Trek" ... but that is not what the LBB rules say about that EVIL, DANGEROUS "Engineering Section".

RAW ... what may be placed in the Engineering Section of a ship? [LBB2.81, p.13]
RAW ... what does it say about the BRIDGE and "equipment for proper operation of the ship"? [LBB2.81, p.13]

The BRIDGE [20 dTons] may be distributed around the ship or lumped together ... but all CONTROLS are "BRIDGE" dTons. [LBB2.81, p.13]
ENGINEERING SECTION is just DRIVES and POWER PLANT [LBB2.81, p.13] (not even fuel which is silly but RAW) ... "all non-drive features" means ONLY 2 or 3 items go in Engineering dTons (MD, JD & PP).

Now, back to "Ballroom Dancing" on the 20 dTon bridge of a Free Trader vs cramped workstations on the 20 dTon bridge of a Broadsword!

[PS. You can Ballroom Dance on the bridge of most Enterprises.]

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Where are the ENGINEERS and MEDICS on a 1000 dTon ship according to LBB 2?

Undefined.

I would assume Engineers are stationed in Engineering, preparing to do battlefield repairs if at action station. They wouldn't do much good at the bridge. I certainly don't expect Engineers to stand manoeuvre watch, but to stand Engineering watch in Engineering.

Likewise Medics would not drag screaming casualties into the bridge for treatment. If no specified sickbay is provided, I would guess the Medic would take over a lounge at action stations.

[HINT: what is the tonnage specified for an ENGINEERING workstation and SICKBAY?]

Undefined.

As a ship with a constant 20 Dt "bridge" can have anything from zero to perhaps 10 Engineers, proportional to drive size, but completely unrelated to the "bridge", I would assume their workspaces are in Engineering.

Sickbay is presumably "staterooms":

LBB5'79, p32:
Many of these items are subsumed in the costs and tonnages of 4 ton staterooms. In most cases, such areas are required only when drawing up deck plans. Food Service Areas, including mess hall, galley, ward room. Scientific Areas, including laboratories and storerooms. Electronics Areas, including commo suites, avionics areas, electronics counter-measures installations, gunnery simulation trainers, computer operations areas and parts storage. Vehicle Decks, including garaging, maintenance bays, launching areas and parts storage. Recycling Stations. Medical Areas, including isolation wards, surgeries, pharmacies, and examination rooms. Recreational Facilities, including theatres, crafts shops, libraries, and pool rooms. Agricultural Areas, including fresh food gardens, hydroponics areas, and algae tanks. Troop Barracks, including squad areas, training rooms, armories, brigs, ammunition magazines, vacc suit storage, capsule launch areas and briefing rooms.

EDIT: working the problem from the other direction, look at the BRIDGE on an 800 dTon Broadsword deckplan ... where did the VOLUME for all those extra seats come from and what happened to the missing VITAL EQUIPMENT from the 100 dTon ship that occupied that tonnage?

I have no idea how a 20 Dt "bridge" turned into a nearly 50 Dt deck, even if the computer and some stateroom space is included there. I guess in the same way a 200 Dt Marava had nearly 400 Dt deck space? Or a 100 Dt Scout in a 80 Dt hull had ~30 Dt deck space for 4 "staterooms" (nominally 16 Dt), partially outside the hull?

The canon deck plans were not all that careful about scale?

 

[atpollard]

The canon deck plans were not all that careful about scale?

fair enough.

[I simply think that LBB2.81, page 13 is clear about the limits of what counts as ENGINEERRING tonnage and that the BRIDGE tonnage is all of the controls to operate a ship. The issue is that the BRIDGE is a constant volume while the number of crewmen operating those controls increases with size from 1 for a 100 dTon scout to 10 minimum for greater than 1000 dTon ships.]

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I love that idea and it is very "Star Trek" ... but that is not what the LBB rules say about that EVIL, DANGEROUS "Engineering Section".

There is no RAW about "EVIL, DANGEROUS" in LBB2.

I have no idea what is so special about the "Engineering Section", except as a limit to what drives a standard hull can have.

The BRIDGE [20 dTons] may be distributed around the ship or lumped together ...

Absolutely agree. And the corollary is of course that other ship components are the same...

RAW ... what does it say about the BRIDGE and "equipment for proper operation of the ship"? [LBB2.81, p.13]

That can mean anything. I have seen arguments for it to include everything from life-support to air-locks. I assume it means something like a current ship's bridge, not everything and the kitchen sink.

RAW ... what may be placed in the Engineering Section of a ship? [LBB2.81, p.13]

Drive and power systems, all of the systems necessary for power and propulsion.

How does the power get to the turrets? In what system is the power conduits included? I would assume it's part of the power system, distributed into the entire ship, but that's just my interpretation.

In what system is the jump-grid included, given that there is no difference between a jump and non-jump hull? I would assume the "jump drive" is distributed, but that's just my interpretation.

but all CONTROLS are "BRIDGE" dTons. [LBB2.81, p.13]

It doesn't say ALL controls, just basic controls:

A. The Bridge: All ships must allocate 2% of their tonnage (minimum 20 tons) to basic controls, communications equipment, avionics, scanners, detectors, sensors, and other equipment for proper operation of the ship.

Drawing deck plans isn't very regulated. You can assume more or less anything you want, but for consistency a 20 Dt "bridge" in a Scout should be similar to a 20 Dt "bridge" in a 1000 Dt ship. Either both of them are spacious with plenty of workstations, or none of them are. But that's just my prejudice, of course.

Somehow, that 20 Dt "bridge" coincides with needing one Pilot, and perhaps a Navigator. I believe that means something.

 

[atpollard]

There is no RAW about "EVIL, DANGEROUS" in LBB2.

I have no idea what is so special about the "Engineering Section", except as a limit to what drives a standard hull can have.

OK.
My book says ONLY drives can go in it and you are installing the crew and controls those crew are operating in there.
For better or worse, I think ENGINEERING is like the reactor room in a Nuclear Power Plant ... it can be accessed, but the controls and people are somewhere outside the bulkhead that restricts access.

A. The Bridge: All ships must allocate 2% of their tonnage (minimum 20 tons) to basic controls, communications equipment, avionics, scanners, detectors, sensors, and other equipment for proper operation of the ship.

Thus we are at an impasse and this conversation will yield nothing fruitful.
YM(has)V

 

[Dragoner]

It's more like fighting for the remote, while everyone is laying about on their individual couches.

Btw, I wonder when the first bridge size discussion was?

 

[atpollard]

Btw, I wonder when the first bridge size discussion was?

1977?

 

[kilemall]

The snapshot plans made clear that there was an engineering bulkhead separating it from the deck portion of the ship. I would assume something like armor-1 by both HG and Striker standards. Hence a major load bearing and weight balance element, hence not changeable normally.

 

[kilemall]

Also don’t forget that scout ships get the 2 LS detect ability.

 

[Dragoner]

1977?

On CotI? Impressive.

 

[atpollard]

On CotI? Impressive.

On COTI ... March 3. 2002
[First Post Discussing Bridges - MT vs CT]

 

[Grav_Moped]

OK.
My book says ONLY drives can go in it and you are installing the crew and controls those crew are operating in there.
For better or worse, I think ENGINEERING is like the reactor room in a Nuclear Power Plant ... it can be accessed, but the controls and people are somewhere outside the bulkhead that restricts access.

Some canon designs work that way (isolated drives that the engineers only go into to fix things when the drives aren't running, maybe), others -- and typically how I draw them myself -- look to be more hands-on. I don't recall seeeing anything in the text that dictates either interpretation.

I'll admit that keeping the engine room with its half-megawatt-class (at minimum) fusion reactor as a shirtsleeve environment is more of a cinematic/RPG thing than a reality-simulation thing.

Going to be too hot, maybe radioactive, and possibly unsafe due to reality-warping effects radiating from the drives... but this is SF, so they are just big boxes with conduits and flanges, lots of blinky lights, and a purposeful hum added in post-production by the sound guys.

 

[Dragoner]

Some canon designs work that way (isolated drives that the engineers only go into to fix things when the drives aren't running, maybe), others -- and typically how I draw them myself -- look to be more hands-on. I don't recall seeeing anything in the text that dictates either interpretation.

I'll admit that keeping the engine room with its half-megawatt-class (at minimum) fusion reactor as a shirtsleeve environment is more of a cinematic/RPG thing than a reality-simulation thing.

Going to be too hot, maybe radioactive, and possibly unsafe due to reality-warping effects radiating from the drives... but this is SF, so they are just big boxes with conduits and flanges, lots of blinky lights, and a purposeful hum added in post-production by the sound guys.

I always like the engineer running a bunch of cool crab type robots, though also the classic version is Sushi by Bryan Gibson, that is also awesome too.

 

[Spinward Flow]

I'll admit that keeping the engine room with its half-megawatt-class (at minimum) fusion reactor as a shirtsleeve environment is more of a cinematic/RPG thing than a reality-simulation thing.

Going to be too hot, maybe radioactive, and possibly unsafe due to reality-warping effects radiating from the drives... but this is SF, so they are just big boxes with conduits and flanges, lots of blinky lights, and a purposeful hum added in post-production by the sound guys.

My personal preference is for the drive bays to be "shirtsleeve environment accessible" for reasons of inspections and maintenance (etc.) during flight, but to have an engineer workstation in a shielded compartment (behind bulkhead) where crew will typically monitor the drive systems in operation. The computer displays will "tell you more" about what condition the drives are in than using a Mk I Eyeball to do the job ... let alone providing information about drive tuning and tolerances, load balancing, output, efficiency ... blah, blah blah ... all that stuff that (properly trained) engineers care about (so no one else has to).

Example ... my "new" (and still in development for posting purposes) 328 ton SIE Clipper design.



You can clearly see that the two drive bays segregate the "machinery" of the jump, power plant and maneuver drives from the engineering workstations, to keep everything compartmentalized behind bulkheads. That way, if there's a "fire in a drive bay" an engineer isn't automatically assumed to be inside the drive bay where they can become an immediate casualty (or worse, get "trapped" by the fire and be unable to escape the compartment). Furthermore, by isolating the drive bays into their own dedicated compartments, it is possible to "vent atmosphere" from them in an emergency so as to evacuate them to vacuum as a fire suppression response ... assuming no engineer is personally inside the drive bay at the time.

Additional considerations are that before going into combat, it is somewhat standard procedure to depressurize compartments to reduce the risk of explosive decompression blowouts. So being able to decompress the drive bays down to a vacuum and leave only the engineer workstations pressurized makes for a reasonable compromise, assuming the engineering crew do not don vacc suits and depressurize even their workstations as a precautionary measure (especially if they need to respond to battle damage conditions).

 

[whartung]

On COTI ... March 3. 2002

Need to hunt down the first time it came up on the TML.

 

[BlackBat242]

As far as I know carriers have three COs with attending staffs: The admiral commanding the carrier group, the Captain commanding the ship, and a captain of the air wing.

I guess they need lots of briefing rooms?

Each squadron has its own "Ready Room" which is where the officers/aircrew do their paperwork, get briefings, etc. - this is big enough for all of the aircrew both enlisted and officer. There are 7 squadrons in the modern USN carrier air wing - in the 1980s they had 9.

 

[BlackBat242]

View attachment 4486
-This pic- is part of a US Navy berthing (No idea how the RN's doing individual cabins and having enough crew to deal with emergencies). It's quite a bit smaller per person than the video, and you probably get a lot people per 4T space. The galley and passegeways are separate spaces not shown, and do take up a fair amount of additional space, but the galley isn't shown in the video of the '4T cabin', so it's still apples to apples as a comparison. The photo is actually a lot closer to the space taken up by crew sleeping accomodations in the Military Vehicles book (Supplement 6 for Mongoose, not sure for others, or if the others even have that listed). I'm not proposing that for Traveller space vehicles, mind you, just presenting it for everyone's knowledge - as has been said, space vehicles need life support also so no one suffocates. But I lived in a berthing like the picture for four years, and it wasn't nice, but it wasn't unsurvivable, either.

That photo is of crew berthing aboard CV-41 USS Midway (commissioned 1945), after her 1955-57 and 1966-70 modernizations.

Here is crew berthing aboard the San Antonio class LPDs (commissioned 2006+) - note that more length is used to provide space for the crew of lower two bunks to sit upright to read, use a computer, etc:



Here is the berthing plan for the Ford-class CVNs - it is probably the same type of bunk design:

 

[rosswinn]

I am of the opinion that 4 tons is significantly smaller than they have any reason to be. Smaller quarters have some significant mental health issues, or cause them in most people. IMTU I use cubic meters, with the average scout ship being 7500 cubic meters (about 500tons). average passenger and crew accommodations are commonly 150 cubic meters, with 120 being "quarters" and 30 being "common area". This is like having 8 ton staterooms. Also, it takes about 25 cubic meters per crewmember to farm and grow food that makes them functionally self supporting.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

I am of the opinion that 4 tons is significantly smaller than they have any reason to be. Smaller quarters have some significant mental health issues, or cause them in most people. IMTU I use cubic meters, with the average scout ship being 7500 cubic meters (about 500tons). average passenger and crew accommodations are commonly 150 cubic meters, with 120 being "quarters" and 30 being "common area". This is like having 8 ton staterooms. Also, it takes about 25 cubic meters per crewmember to farm and grow food that makes them functionally self supporting.

To make matters worse for some, My Little Ponies of Death require 4x the space humans do. And they do not use walls or doors, just curtains for separators. Could you make K'kree CT ships with 32 dTon staterooms?