Stateroom size - 4 tons too much?

[Baroun Tardis]

Wife and I have been living full time RVers for the last 8-9 months .
Interior is 2.4 meters wide, 8 meters from back to the driving area, and about 2.4 meters floor to ceiling. If you add in the under-floor utilities, call it 3 meters.
I read that as 4 tons, but it includes the galley, kitchen table and couch.

The breakout is from stern to stem is:
2.4w x 2 meters long : bedroom.
2.4w, 1 meter long: lavatory on the port side, shower on the starboard side, aisle between. Sliding doors fore and aft.
2.4w x 2 meters long: starboard side : closet and fridge, and main door.. port side stove/oven/microwave and kitchen sink
2.4w x 3 meters: starboard side couch, port side table with bench seats
2.4wx 1 meters "cockpit"

To me, the "stateroom" part wouldn't include the galley... so 2.4x (bedroom & bathroom = 3) is 1.6 tons.
I guess that matches to a small craft cabin?

I guess the 4 tons for the stateroom is including the galley and such?

 

[vegas]

Yes, it includes the galley, passage ways, etc. It does not represent merely living space but all the miscellaneous space the scales with the number of people on board.

Further, remember that people step outside their RV, so more "space" is available to them than the vehicle. Not so for a traveller who spends at least a week+ at a time in their "stateroom"

Nevertheless, there is no doubt that the staterooms are luxurious by modern military standards...

 

[Baroun Tardis]

Yes, it includes the galley, passage ways, etc. It does not represent merely living space but all the miscellaneous space the scales with the number of people on board.

Further, remember that people step outside their RV, so more "space" is available to them than the vehicle. Not so for a traveller who spends at least a week+ at a time in their "stateroom"

Nevertheless, there is no doubt that the staterooms are luxurious by modern military standards..

We've got health issues - my wife's not out of the RV that often at all. Once a week for date night and shopping. She's "living the dream" so to speak, if your dream is being an X-Boat crewman.
I'm outside more than that, but then even on a starship I'd be out of the cabin more to go to engineering or the bridge or whatever to work, as compared to sitting here at the kitchen table with a pair of laptops, one for work and one personal.

Yeah, military standards would be different.

 

[McPerth]

Let’s see: 4 dton is about 56 m³. Assuming 3 m to ceiling, that means about 18.6 m² (let’s say 20 to make numbers easy, assuming ceiling is a little lower). As this includes all the living space, the equivalent to a 3 room apartment would be about 60 m².

Does this seem too much to you?

And, as Vegas said, people living in this 3 room apartment leaves home, while people in a starship does not…

Nevertheless, there is no doubt that the staterooms are luxurious by modern military standards...

Military are specially prepared people, ready for living on less commodities than the ship customers, and even so they can usually go to the deck to have more “living space”. Only submarines would really be as enclosed as in a starship.

And remember, most military starships in Traveller use double occupancy (or small staterooms), so giving only 2 dtons per person (or in some versions, even bunks, at 1 dton/person)

 

[atpollard]

Comparing the 9-18 square meters per person on a Traveller Ship to a Cruise Ship ...

The last ship I was on was about 40 m wide x 320 meters long x 10 decks for passengers & crew ... about 128,000 sq. meters for 3064 people or about 42 square meters per person. That was designed for spending a week on board crossing an ocean.

A cruise cost Cr 200 to Cr 2000 per person per week, so Traveller Stateroom tonnage is a little "spartan" by those standards.

 

[Dragoner]

I guess the 4 tons for the stateroom is including the galley and such?

Exactly: "Staterooms actually average about two tons, but the additional tonnage is used to provide corridors and access ways, as well as galley and recreation areas." Page 33 of High Guard.

 

[Condottiere]

Six squares, three tonnes.

Two squares go into the communal pot.

 

[whartung]

That was designed for spending a week on board crossing an ocean.

Its important to take this into account. Open deck get a bunch of "free space" that's not counted in the square footage or overall tonnage because it's outdoors. Perhaps they could be simulated with display panels on the walls to give the impression of open space.

 

[infojunky]

Hum, the whole personal space question...

Currently in my house, my personal space, i.e. bedroom/personal storage is around 2 dTons. In the past I shared the same space with a sibling then spouse in the same place. Then there is the times when I was at sea, in the Navy, I shared the same amount of space with 9 others, 4 in my brief time as a civilian mariner.

Note this is just my bed and personal items, tools, specialized clothing and other related bits were in lockers in their significant spaces.

Again the other spaces are all communally occupied.

The galley, i.e. basic food prep and active storage, the smallest one I encountered was 1/2 dTon, which served 10 people for about a weeks worth of meals. Note with just prepackaged foods, i.e. MREs and the like less than half of that space. Please note the chart table, head, mess and lounge space related to that was 3 dTons at most.

Looking at this I trend to start 1/2 dTon per person and add/subtract from there.

 

[atpollard]

Hum, the whole personal space question...

Currently in my house, my personal space, i.e. bedroom/personal storage is around 2 dTons. In the past I shared the same space with a sibling then spouse in the same place. Then there is the times when I was at sea, in the Navy, I shared the same amount of space with 9 others, 4 in my brief time as a civilian mariner.

Note this is just my bed and personal items, tools, specialized clothing and other related bits were in lockers in their significant spaces.

Again the other spaces are all communally occupied.

The galley, i.e. basic food prep and active storage, the smallest one I encountered was 1/2 dTon, which served 10 people for about a weeks worth of meals. Note with just prepackaged foods, i.e. MREs and the like less than half of that space. Please note the chart table, head, mess and lounge space related to that was 3 dTons at most.

Looking at this I trend to start 1/2 dTon per person and add/subtract from there.

Housing Codes (like HUD) had requirements for 1 room per person in dwellings to make it POSSIBLE to go and be alone. [I have not kept track of changes to the code]. It was a mental health issue for stuffing people into apartments.

 

[atpollard]

Exactly: "Staterooms actually average about two tons, but the additional tonnage is used to provide corridors and access ways, as well as galley and recreation areas." Page 33 of High Guard.

Even then the ACTUAL PLANS steal space from the 20 dTon bridge that would have a scout or free trader crew practicing "Ballroom Dancing" during the night shift.

 

[Dragoner]

Even then the ACTUAL PLANS steal space from the 20 dTon bridge that would have a scout or free trader crew practicing "Ballroom Dancing" during the night shift.

It is also difficult to know the people using these vehicles. They could be agoraphobic, afraid of open spaces, such as born on a station, or in a domed town, and the idea of someplace open such as the Earth they would find simply terrifying.

 

[Spinward Flow]

To me, the "stateroom" part wouldn't include the galley... so 2.4x (bedroom & bathroom = 3) is 1.6 tons.
I guess that matches to a small craft cabin?

Small craft cabin.

I guess the 4 tons for the stateroom is including the galley and such?

Also includes life support (main and backup) systems, shared corridor access space, etc.

If you resort to detailed deck planning (as I have ) you can do 3m x 3m (10ft x 10ft) "stateroom" spaces (2x2 deck squares) that are barely more than a bed and a closet and a space to turn around in when you walk in. You then wind up needing to have "communal fresher" facilities that get shared with other staterooms. The smallest floor plan that *I* can come up with that includes a personal fresher (separate toilet, sink and shower stall) is a 3.75m x 3m stateroom block (2.5x2 deck squares).

Only submarines would really be as enclosed as in a starship.

Submarine accommodations are a better baseline, because the (relatively) sealed environment (meaning life support) and pressure hull limits what can fit where (and why).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

4 Dt, or 2 Dt for military ships, average space per person cover a lot more than your private space. Officers get a lot more space than spacemen, and that comes from the total allotment (See the Kinunir). The Captain's large cabin means all other cabins are smaller...

HG'79, p32:
The following items are suggested uses for interior space aboard a starship. The actual masses and costs for such areas are left to the referee when actually designing such a ship. Many of these items are subsumed in the costs and tonnages of 4 ton staterooms. In most cases, such areas are required only when drawing up deck plans. Food Service Areas, including mess hall, galley, ward room. Scientific Areas, including laboratories and storerooms. Electronics Areas, including commo suites, avionics areas, electronics counter-measures installations, gunnery simulation trainers, computer operations areas and parts storage. Vehicle Decks, including garaging, maintenance bays, launching areas and parts storage. Recycling Stations. Medical Areas, including isolation wards, surgeries, pharmacies, and examination rooms. Recreational Facilities, including theatres, crafts shops, libraries, and pool rooms. Agricultural Areas, including fresh food gardens, hydroponics areas, and algae tanks. Troop Barracks, including squad areas, training rooms, armories, brigs, ammunition magazines, vacc suit storage, capsule launch areas and briefing rooms.

HG'80, p33:
Staterooms actually average about two tons, but the additional tonnage is used to provide corridors and access ways, as well as galley and recreation areas.

The corridors alone in a major pain when drawing deck plans.


At double occupancy, that means ~1 Dt (~4.5 m²) plus an equal amount of common areas each. This includes all equipment and space to keep you alive and functioning well in a risky and stressful environment.

This is not for conscripts or raw recruits, but for highly trained technicians that could presumably get good jobs ashore...


This may seem luxurious to a Napoleonic sailor or WWI submariner, but not for a prosperous interstellar society.


I've heard The Navy, the Royal Navy, is already moving to individual cabins for all crew, in order to be able to recruit.

This is an actual RN PO cabin (RFA Wave Knight):

Accommodation Photographs

Does anyone have any pictures of the accommodation onboard any current RFA ships? Searched extensively online and couldn't seem to find anything... Thanks in advance.

www.navy-net.co.uk

OK, not a warship, but at least a naval vessel.


Seems to be a bit bigger than 4.5 m²?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Interestingly, wiki has this to say:

In spacecraft, cabins are required to fully supply food and oxygen for their crew. On missions lasting a year or longer, the cabins have to be self-sustaining, i.e. replenish their own water and oxygen. The space cabin for any long-range crewed mission is expected to be reasonably spacious, with approximately 28 cubic metres allotted to each occupant. In addition, cabins have life support systems that should have the capability to meet a variety of off-nominal conditions, including cabin fires, depressurization, and component shutdown or failure. Frequently, these conditions occur so quickly that recovery can be provided only by automatic control systems. In the late 1960s, several experimental ground facilities were developed to evaluate regenerative life support systems for crewed space flight.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabin_(ship)#Spacecraft
Referencing a report from 1968:
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=19690010288

 

[Badenov]

So, the 2T/4T cabin thing is typical of civilian ships in RL.

is a RL cruise ship crew stateroom, and the person giving the tour says it's normally a double, but it's just him owing to specific circumstances. Ballparking the cabin size in meters, it could be close to a 4T cabin, double-occupied obviously, so I think it's a good estimate for a Traveller cabin.



-This pic- is part of a US Navy berthing (No idea how the RN's doing individual cabins and having enough crew to deal with emergencies). It's quite a bit smaller per person than the video, and you probably get a lot people per 4T space. The galley and passegeways are separate spaces not shown, and do take up a fair amount of additional space, but the galley isn't shown in the video of the '4T cabin', so it's still apples to apples as a comparison. The photo is actually a lot closer to the space taken up by crew sleeping accomodations in the Military Vehicles book (Supplement 6 for Mongoose, not sure for others, or if the others even have that listed). I'm not proposing that for Traveller space vehicles, mind you, just presenting it for everyone's knowledge - as has been said, space vehicles need life support also so no one suffocates. But I lived in a berthing like the picture for four years, and it wasn't nice, but it wasn't unsurvivable, either.

 

[atpollard]

So, the 2T/4T cabin thing is typical of civilian ships in RL.

is a RL cruise ship crew stateroom, and the person giving the tour says it's normally a double, but it's just him owing to specific circumstances. Ballparking the cabin size in meters, it could be close to a 4T cabin, double-occupied obviously, so I think it's a good estimate for a Traveller cabin.

Looking at the video, the bed looked roughly 2 foot x 6 foot and the room appeared to be about 3 beds wide (6 feet) and 2 beds long (12 feet) making it about 72 square feet. With about 50 square feet per dTon, that places the Cruise Ship Crew Cabin around 1.5 dTons (including the refresher) for a 2 person occupancy.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

View attachment 4486
-This pic- is part of a US Navy berthing ...

That is only a small part of the total personnel space aboard. How large were the mess-halls, galleys, sickbays, freshers, storage, plumbing, lounges, briefing rooms, air conditioning, gyms, and all the corridors? How large was the Captain's cabin and officers wardroom? It all comes out of each person's 2 Dt...

Barracks-style accommodations generally means more space somewhere else.


https://www.navytimes.com/news/your...mfort-a-centerpiece-of-new-supercarrier-ford/

The Ford has three gyms stacked with the latest and greatest equipment from the likes of Hammer Strength, ...

The gyms will total 3,085 square feet — more area than most three-bedroom homes.

~300 m² is perhaps ~65 Dt, not much per person, but it all adds up.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Even then the ACTUAL PLANS steal space from the 20 dTon bridge that would have a scout or free trader crew practicing "Ballroom Dancing" during the night shift.

You're too generous. The Type S also stole space from outside the hull, too.

 

[Spinward Flow]

(No idea how the RN's doing individual cabins and having enough crew to deal with emergencies).

"Steel is cheap and air is free" (when it comes to construction costs).

Looking at the video, the bed looked roughly 2 foot x 6 foot and the room appeared to be about 3 beds wide (6 feet) and 2 beds long (12 feet) making it about 72 square feet. With about 50 square feet per dTon, that places the Cruise Ship Crew Cabin around 1.5 dTons (including the refresher) for a 2 person occupancy.

So ... small craft cabin ... and no sealed environment life support equipment required.

"Excuse me, I'm just going to go to my stateroom and open the window to get some let out all the fresh air ... that space is known to have plenty of ... um ...