UWP Changes

[RainOfSteel]

Here are worlds that have no one living on them, where there is no government, where there is no law, and there is a positive technological level.

Except for perhaps a handful of cases, the TLs should be set down to 0.

And also except for a few special cases, the starports should not be greater than D.

Of course, this is subjec to yet further revision beyond this viz-a-viz the need to balance out changes between rockballs and gardens (if we make some heavily populated rockballs nicer places, some other garden spots will have to get turned into rockballs; but then, that would be appropriate, as there is no one there).


75 Worlds: Pop/Gov/Law = 0, TL > 0

Antares             Antares1808         1808  A-514000-B  M5 V
Antares             Antares2218         2218  D-897000-5  G3 V
Antares             Antares0939         0939  C-200000-A  K9 V
Core                Onon                2017  E-576000-9  M7 V
Core                Trevor              0125  B-664000-C  M6 V
Core                Dunkle              0822  B-140000-D  G9 V
Core                Celetron            0922  A-375000-F  M1 V
Core                Suhtlam             1522  B-7C0000-A  M7 V
Core                Elinz               2122  B-476000-D  M9 V
Core                Azpun               0138  A-873000-A  M2 V
Core                Core2334            2334  B-233000-E  G7 V
Core                Core2439            2439  B-384000-B  M7 V
Corridor            Ighoth              1904  A-333000-C  K9 V
Corridor            Braden IV           2202  A-877000-D  F4 V
Corridor            Atudew              2810  C-595000-8  M7 V
Corridor            Desolation          2535  C-470000-B  F7 V
Dagudashaag         Dagudashaag1507     1507  B-957000-A  M2 V
Dagudashaag         Dagudashaag3208     3208  C-898000-A  K7 III
Dagudashaag         Dagudashaag1618     1618  C-445000-9  M1 IV
Dagudashaag         Dagudashaag2140     2140  C-649000-9  M2 III
Dagudashaag         Dagudashaag2239     2239  B-130000-F  F8 V
Daibei              Daibei2603          2603  C-788000-B  G5 V
Daibei              Daibei3237          3237  E-644000-9  G0 D
Delphi              Delphi0803          0803  C-565000-6  G3 V
Delphi              Delphi1010          1010  D-537000-5  G0 V
Deneb               Anomaly Five        0615  X-100000-5  M9 V
Deneb               Ugrik               2016  E-300000-7  F7 V
Deneb               Maricutin           0534  B-764000-A  F9 V
Diaspora            Diaspora0616        0616  B-6A0000-E  F2 V
Empty Quarter       Empty Quarter0932   0932  C-868000-7  K1 V
Empty Quarter       Empty Quarter1236   1236  C-774000-8  K5 V
Fornast             Fornast2404         2404  E-687000-6  M9 V
Fornast             Fornast3228         3228  E-236000-7  K9 V
Fornast             Fornast1236         1236  D-898000-8  M3 V
Fornast             Fornast2037         2037  B-AC7000-C  G0 V
Gushemege           Gushemege0228       0228  X-652000-4  M4 V
Gushemege           Gushemege1023       1023  C-120000-E  K3 V
Gushemege           Gushemege2429       2429  D-120000-9  M9 V
Ilelish             Ilelish0806         0806  D-85A000-6  F4 D
Ilelish             Ilelish1009         1009  C-9C5000-7  M8 V
Ilelish             Reserve             2217  B-776000-D  K7 VI
Ilelish             Yuma                2513  C-350000-A  F1 D
Ilelish             Ilelish1623         1623  B-202000-B  M3 V
Ilelish             Ilelish1624         1624  A-300000-C  M5 V
Ley                 Ley0806             0806  D-400000-7  K8 V
Ley                 Ley0810             0810  A-000000-F  M1 V
Ley                 Ley1534             1534  B-200000-C  M0 V
Lishun              Sperris             2605  D-687000-6  K4 V
Lishun              Gaakhu              3008  C-896000-7  F5 D
Lishun              Vakada              0112  B-100000-D  M9 V
Lishun              Samphan             0132  C-797000-8  G7 D
Lishun              Irdashe             2638  C-9A6000-A  K2 III
Magyar              Magyar0815          0815  B-7B5000-C  M5 II
Massilia            Lebensraum          0507  B-544000-B  G7 VI
Massilia            Hamagami            3207  B-300000-E  M9 V
Massilia            Nary                1117  D-000000-B  K7 V
Massilia            Zaibeth             0425  D-110000-9  M2 III
Massilia            Rahum               1924  D-8A6000-8  K9 V
Massilia            Rigold              0434  A-264000-E  M1 D
Old Expanses        Kresh               3213  B-641000-8  M0 V
Spinward Marches    728-907             1214  D-955000-2  F1 V
Spinward Marches    Tavonni             1520  E-567000-7  G6 II
Spinward Marches    Djinni              2111  E-459000-9  K5 V
Verge               Verge2319           2319  B-756000-D  M1 VI
Verge               Verge3220           3220  E-642000-7  K9 VI
Verge               Verge1426           1426  B-494000-E  M4 V
Vland               Liwar               1110  C-350000-A  K2 V
Vland               Zelaklaka           1708  C-7B2000-B  M8 V
Vland               Ashbakha            2216  A-672000-A  M4 V
Vland               Urkimgar            3211  C-577000-9  M1 V
Vland               Karlum              2221  B-5AA000-E  A2 V
Vland               Zarurza             1539  B-95A000-A  M5 V
Vland               Shaka               2137  E-410000-9  F0 V
Zarushagar          Deyis II            0917  E-874000-8  K4 II
Zarushagar          Zarushagar0324      0324  D-434000-9  M8 IV

 

[RainOfSteel]

Here are the Pop 0 worlds that I classify as "nice to live on". They have Size 5+; Atmosphere 5, 6, 8; and Hydrographics 5+.

Notice that many have Starports above D and positive TLs (even though there is no one here).

41 Worlds

Antares             Antares1122         1122  D-686023-2  F7 V
Antares             Antares0639         0639  A-568003-A  F2 V
Antares             Antares1838         1838  B-689010-8  F8 D
Core                Core1308            1308  D-557013-5  M4 II
Corridor            Kikasad             2334  C-76A003-6  F1 V
Dagudashaag         Dagudashaag1503     1503  C-667013-A  M2 V
Dagudashaag         Dagudashaag1507     1507  B-957000-A  M2 V
Daibei              Daibei0409          0409  D-76A047-8  M5 VI
Daibei              Daibei2603          2603  C-788000-B  G5 V
Daibei              Daibei2806          2806  B-86A027-D  K9 V
Daibei              Daibei0731          0731  C-689023-B  M2 V
Delphi              Delphi0803          0803  C-565000-6  G3 V
Delphi              Delphi0411          0411  D-66A057-7  G6 IV
Diaspora            Diaspora0807        0807  C-588012-A  G1 V
Empty Quarter       Empty Quarter0932   0932  C-868000-7  K1 V
Fornast             Fornast2404         2404  E-687000-6  M9 V
Fornast             Fornast0420         0420  B-856040-8  M6 V
Fornast             Fornast1522         1522  C-76A003-7  K3 V
Fornast             Fornast1930         1930  D-85A003-9  M2 V
Gushemege           Gushemege3217       3217  C-886001-8  G5 V
Gushemege           Gushemege0737       0737  B-585020-B  M3 V
Gushemege           Gushemege3039       3039  C-55A002-C  M9 IV
Ilelish             Ilelish0806         0806  D-85A000-6  F4 D
Lishun              Gadiimkimi          0907  E-78A020-7  K1 VI
Lishun              Linuusgam           1009  C-768003-8  K7 D
Lishun              Sperris             2605  D-687000-6  K4 V
Lishun              Orwell              2411  B-785015-9  K6 V
Lishun              Kuursarda           3012  B-565014-8  K7 V
Lishun              Gamulag             1138  B-585020-B  G0 VI
Massilia            Reetage             1220  B-557015-9  F9 V
Massilia            Charted             2019  B-585020-A  F6 VI
Massilia            Ccoman              2714  B-76A003-E  G2 D
Massilia            Kirgis              0325  B-95A010-B  F8 D
Reavers Deep        Reavers Deep3112    3112  E-566000-0   
Spinward Marches    728-907             1214  D-955000-2  F1 V
Spinward Marches    Tavonni             1520  E-567000-7  G6 II
Verge               Verge2319           2319  B-756000-D  M1 VI
Verge               Verge0622           0622  D-667001-9  M2 V
Vland               Irila               2211  B-568003-9  M7 V
Vland               Gisharu             3218  D-556013-5  M1 V
Vland               Zarurza             1539  B-95A000-A  M5 V

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
And, also of some concern to me are the presence of Starport A/B on worlds with Pop 0. (Actually, any world of Pop 0 and any starport above E is a problem for me, but let's keep the problem managable.)

I would argue that lo-pop worlds should not be allowed to have an A or B starport. They just don't have the people necessary to both run society *and* run a starport. (One could argue this applies to non-industrual worlds, but I will start with the lower limit.)

Along the same lines, a world cannot have an A starport if their TL is less than 9. They cannot have a B starport if their TL is less than 7. That is just stupid. They don't even have the technological infrastructure to make what the starport says they can. I guess you could say that everything is imported, but that is silly.

Please understand that I am more than willing to accept a small handful of exceptions. Maybe a hi-pop world is so insular that it does have an E starport, maybe it's occupiers don't let them build one (e.g. Entrope). Maybe we found that one case where it did make sense to build a shipyard on a lo-pop world and import all the material and manpower. But they should all be very rare, if not unique (at least in their sector).

Oh, one more systemic change request: Please allow C starport to sell refined fuel. If we are going to restrict the presence of shipyards (which I strongly advocate), we need to allow those without a shipyard to sell refined fuel.

 

[GypsyComet]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
And, also of some concern to me are the presence of Starport A/B on worlds with Pop 0. (Actually, any world of Pop 0 and any starport above E is a problem for me, but let's keep the problem managable.

110 Worlds.
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Zarushagar Zarushagar1205 1205 B-000002-D G7 V
Zarushagar Zarushagar1504 1504 B-310010-C M8 IV
Zarushagar Zarushagar2910 2910 B-654002-A F0 V
Zarushagar Zarushagar0120 0120 B-310010-A M5 V
Zarushagar Zarushagar0513 0513 A-310010-C G3 V
Zarushagar Zarushagar2712 2712 B-310010-D K7 V
Zarushagar Sensee 1922 B-310010-A G4 VI
Zarushagar Zarushagar1735 1735 B-310010-D G0 V
Zarushagar Zarushagar1934 1934 B-310010-A M1 V
Zarushagar Zarushagar2131 2131 B-310010-E M0 V
Zarushagar Zarushagar2840 2840 B-310010-C M9 V
Zarushagar Zarushagar2933 2933 B-310010-C K1 V</pre>

[/quote]The sheer number of 310010s in Zarushagar is one of the hallmarks of a bad algorithm. Zarushagar is apparently being looked at by QLI for another project, however, so it'll need their involvement to make changes. Otherwise we're cheerfully publishing *wildly* conflicting data or ar stuck with an uncorrected sector...

 

[RainOfSteel]

I created a list of:

Pop 0 AND (Gov 1+ OR Law 1+).

There were 256 worlds.

I have omitted the list because of the length.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by daryen:
I guess you could say that everything is imported, but that is silly.

You can say it a handful of times, but not hundreds of times.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by daryen:

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
And, also of some concern to me are the presence of Starport A/B on worlds with Pop 0. (Actually, any world of Pop 0 and any starport above E is a problem for me, but let's keep the problem managable.)

I would argue that lo-pop worlds should not be allowed to have an A or B starport. They just don't have the people necessary to both run society *and* run a starport. (One could argue this applies to non-industrual worlds, but I will start with the lower limit.)

I mentioned I was trying to keep things "managable".

Because when I check Lo-Pop worlds (Pop 4-) that have Staports A/B, there are 1733.

I am not sure anyone would appreciate me posting a 1733 line data set here in the forum.

Originally posted by daryen:
Oh, one more systemic change request: Please allow C starport to sell refined fuel. If we are going to restrict the presence of shipyards (which I strongly advocate), we need to allow those without a shipyard to sell refined fuel.

I would agree with that, but I am thinking that it is beyond the scope of this discussion.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Because when I check Lo-Pop worlds (Pop 4-) that have Staports A/B, there are 1733.

In the end, all but maybe 10-20 of those 1733 worlds need to be changed from Starport A/B to D/E (or C rarely).

 

[robject]

Originally posted by GypsyComet:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
And, also of some concern to me are the presence of Starport A/B on worlds with Pop 0. (Actually, any world of Pop 0 and any starport above E is a problem for me, but let's keep the problem managable.

110 Worlds.
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Zarushagar Zarushagar1205 1205 B-000002-D G7 V
Zarushagar Zarushagar1504 1504 B-310010-C M8 IV
Zarushagar Zarushagar2910 2910 B-654002-A F0 V
Zarushagar Zarushagar0120 0120 B-310010-A M5 V
Zarushagar Zarushagar0513 0513 A-310010-C G3 V
Zarushagar Zarushagar2712 2712 B-310010-D K7 V
Zarushagar Sensee 1922 B-310010-A G4 VI
Zarushagar Zarushagar1735 1735 B-310010-D G0 V
Zarushagar Zarushagar1934 1934 B-310010-A M1 V
Zarushagar Zarushagar2131 2131 B-310010-E M0 V
Zarushagar Zarushagar2840 2840 B-310010-C M9 V
Zarushagar Zarushagar2933 2933 B-310010-C K1 V</pre>

[/quote]The sheer number of 310010s in Zarushagar is one of the hallmarks of a bad algorithm. Zarushagar is apparently being looked at by QLI for another project, however, so it'll need their involvement to make changes. Otherwise we're cheerfully publishing *wildly* conflicting data or ar stuck with an uncorrected sector... </font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely. I already know that Zarushagar has very poor stellar data (poor, as in "did not follow the standard algorithm well", as in "variance even from other sectors").

 

[inexorabletash]

Originally posted by GypsyComet:
I think all of Aslan space is covered by DGP dotmaps, as is most of Vargr space. The Trailing races never got the DGP treatment, so there isn't much defined beyond the reach of the AotI. Hinterworlds being a notable exception.

Aslan space: Everything in the Astron-Gushemege-Iyiukhtof(Banners)-Ohierao quadrangle is dotmapped in S&A - I've produced random sectors on my site as placeholders with correct allegiances. I can send the .SEC files to anyone interested.

For the Solomani: Reaver's Deep-Hinterworlds-Storr-Banners is dotmapped in S&A as well.

John G. Wood's Underdeveloped Sectors (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/elvwood/Traveller/Sectors/) shows the DGP dotmaps for the coreward regions.

(I'll shut up if anyone asks; just trying to be useful.)

 

[robject]

I am moving this topic at least partially to the Moot.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by robject:
I am moving this topic at least partially to the Moot.

Why, thank you for that.

I've not shared any of my other files I've downloaded from Moot access, and this will be no different.

I'll be working on importing the Allegiance Code data into my existing tables, double checking that my UWP data is correct, etc.

 

[RainOfSteel]

robject,

Numerous worlds have "." characters at the end of their names.

What does this mean?

-------------------------------------------

Just because I do so much work there, I hunted for Capital/Core, and could not locate it.

I tracked it down by hex location, 2118.

I notice that it is listed as Sylea. In M1000. I guess I should ask, should I start referring to it as Sylea/Core from now on?

Or should the "M1000 Names" column value be changed to Capital?

 

[inexorabletash]

The T4 book "First Survey" has a "." suffix at the end of each world name consistently - probably some database's idea of identifying string lengths in flat files.

Some other .SEC data files floating around have multiple "." suffixes randomly scattered on world names. So removing training periods from world names is a good cleanup activity.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Joshua Bell:
The T4 book "First Survey" has a "." suffix at the end of each world name consistently - probably some database's idea of identifying string lengths in flat files.

Some other .SEC data files floating around have multiple "." suffixes randomly scattered on world names. So removing training periods from world names is a good cleanup activity.

Good, I'll go ahead and delete the periods, then.

I'm not working directly with the source data, anyway. I'm working on an imported table. If I need them back for some reason, It's doable.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Just as an observation, I find it interesting that the Second Survey data sector names are all four character long abbreviations, except for the Old Expanses, which is a three character long abbreviation.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
robject,

Numerous worlds have "." characters at the end of their names.

What does this mean?

-------------------------------------------

Just because I do so much work there, I hunted for Capital/Core, and could not locate it.

I tracked it down by hex location, 2118.

I notice that it is listed as Sylea. In M1000. I guess I should ask, should I start referring to it as Sylea/Core from now on?

Or should the "M1000 Names" column value be changed to Capital?

I asked Marc about this, because his spreadsheet is using the M0 data from T4 for the Core sector. I told him I preferred using the pre-T4 world names for Second Survey, and he agreed.

So, don't worry about those periods, gents. And don't worry about Core's mainworld names, either... at least, not for 2nd Survey...

DO worry about the extra worlds in Subsector A of Core.

 

[inexorabletash]

It sounds like Moot access is hard to come by while Hunter is occupied with other issues, so I may not be able to jump into the forum to help out. That said, I'll drop possibly useful data here when available since I'm jotting it down anyway.

I can now confirm that the Sunbane data for Corridor, Deneb, Ealiyasiyw, Reft, Riftspan Reaches and Trojan Reach are from DGP sources (TD#18, TD#19/MTJ#3, TD#18, TD#20/MTJ#3, TD#19, TD#20/MTJ#3 respectively). Nothing appeared to be missing when comparing randomly selected entries.

Sunbane data for the Hinterworlds matches Challenge #39, although trade code "Lo" is for some reason consistently omitted.

Sunbane data for Mendan matches Challenge #49.

Sunbane data for Zarushagaar subsectors K and L matches Travellers' Digest #21, although allegiances are listed as Im (should be Li), 3130 should be "Oasis", some codes are missing (Xb, Dc, O:XXYY).

All of these are circa 1120.

This doesn't help a lot in the grander Second Survey project, but it's nice to know that this data was not simply randomly generated by someone other than GDW or DGP, which is likely the case for a lot of other sectors.

 

[rancke]

Guys, I'm not bailing on this topic, which is of immense interest to me, but I have a deadline on the 31st and I simply don't have the time right now to pay proper attention.

I'll be back in a little over a week.


Hans

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by robject:
DO worry about the extra worlds in Subsector A of Core.

What do you mean?