UWP Changes
- Thread starter far-trader
- Start date
FYI, I have on my to-do list to eyeball the Sunbane data and compare it against the sources I've got handy (many but not all of the TD & MTJ issues, some others) to see if I can tell what the source of each sector is, since even that doesn't appear to be well documented.
On first glance, a great deal of the Sunbane data is straight from DGP sources. Others is (poorly) generated based on AotI data. Sometimes both occur within the same sector (e.g. Core) when only some subsectors were published.
What that means vis-a-vis keeping vs. tossing DGP data I won't speculate on. But I'll keep everyone updated if there is interest. (If someone wants to beat me to it, so much the better - I'm a newbie in this space after all.)
This is for the addition of detailed credits on my map site, and an update of Donald McKinney's Traveller Sector Information page, with more fine grained data and credits as well. (Which, by the way, has functioned as a great shopping list for recently.)
rhoneycutt
SOC-11
I say regenerate *major* worlds using some system of UWP rules that's more reasonable than the old bk3 based stuff. And leave all the less important worlds pretty much unspecified, so players can actually have a reason to use the world generation rules. If all worlds are pre-done, why bother having world generation rules in the first place?
Major worlds would be those that are important to any meta-story from the background setting. Let players do land-grabs of worlds, checked over by people-in-power to make a specific ones 'canon'.
Just focus on broad factional stuff ( that minor world is pro-Vilanii, that one over there is Zhodanii). Let players make the universe that they play in, and place other people's work whereever they like for the needs of their own game..
$.01 cent's worth and how I'll do it anyways.
Major worlds would be those that are important to any meta-story from the background setting. Let players do land-grabs of worlds, checked over by people-in-power to make a specific ones 'canon'.
Just focus on broad factional stuff ( that minor world is pro-Vilanii, that one over there is Zhodanii). Let players make the universe that they play in, and place other people's work whereever they like for the needs of their own game..
$.01 cent's worth and how I'll do it anyways.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
Forwarded.
K8 IV is fine for a colony world. It would be bad for "native" life (stars don't stay IVs for very long -- only a few million years). </font>[/QUOTE]Let me know what happens.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
There are dot maps (in DGP material, granted) that cover some of that, but a large chunk of Zhodani space is undefined in print. That said, I did one sector (Tienspevnekr) from scratch and helped on another (Zhdant) while associated with HIWG. It's why my website has those dotmaps...
I think all of Aslan space is covered by DGP dotmaps, as is most of Vargr space. The Trailing races never got the DGP treatment, so there isn't much defined beyond the reach of the AotI. Hinterworlds being a notable exception.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
I'd have to go digging in *old* archives, but I seem to recall Spica and Alpha Crucis having major UWP problems as well. Spica is outside the scope of the Surveys, but Alpha Cru has, as noted on those lists of HiPop rockballs, a LOT of worlds with Size 1 or 0. Now, we can either call this the results of a sector-scale strike by Grandfather, or start over from AotI.
If someone has this all slurped into a database, I'd love to see the mainworld size stats for each sector. It could help pinpoint trouble spots. Similar with population.
Since it comes down to the GEnie/Sunbane data, we start with that, toss the bits that have *already* been overwritten in Canon print, and look at what trouble spots remain. If oddities remain and have been reinforced in print, we need to know this, because those are the ones we are most likely stuck with. Trouble areas that have not seen Canon revision probably *should* be redone from the AotI base. The people that care about thoses sectors are mostly already aware that the GEnie/Sunbane files are bad, and WON'T be upset if we replace them.
Speaking of low-data sectors, I know *I* have a preference for one of them, since I'm using an old HIWGer's version of Daibei for my current campaign and wouldn't mind seeing that version go gold. Dunno what Marc thinks...
If someone has this all slurped into a database, I'd love to see the mainworld size stats for each sector. It could help pinpoint trouble spots. Similar with population.
Since it comes down to the GEnie/Sunbane data, we start with that, toss the bits that have *already* been overwritten in Canon print, and look at what trouble spots remain. If oddities remain and have been reinforced in print, we need to know this, because those are the ones we are most likely stuck with. Trouble areas that have not seen Canon revision probably *should* be redone from the AotI base. The people that care about thoses sectors are mostly already aware that the GEnie/Sunbane files are bad, and WON'T be upset if we replace them.
Speaking of low-data sectors, I know *I* have a preference for one of them, since I'm using an old HIWGer's version of Daibei for my current campaign and wouldn't mind seeing that version go gold. Dunno what Marc thinks...
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
Except that at TL-6, they can't put up arcologies. Not even with a +2 TL boost in one specific area. We're TL-8, and we can't put up arcologies in the RW.
They also can't do gravity control, so they'll have that problem.
They can't go into space for resources on their own, because that's above their TL, as well.
In any event, the pull out all the stops to explain it thing only works so many times before you just go, "What, that trick again?"
Stoner can only happen so many times . . .
daryen
SOC-14 1K
For what it is worth, those are "correct" UWPs, and appear in RSB. RSB does up Coshecawat's TL to 5, and Redemption's to 2.
If we don't care about the whole "size 4- worlds can't hold an atmosphere" thing, Redemption works well enough as it is. Depending on the type of taint, they don't need filter masks to live, just to avoid the taint. Their lives probably suck, but the society can survive.
Coshecawat is crap, however.
daryen
SOC-14 1K
I do want to stress this. I am very tired of all of these hi-pop worlds with a reasonable tech that have an E starport. I am sorry, but any hi-pop world with a TL 5 or more is pretty much guaranteed to have at least a C starport. And any hi-pop world with a TL of 8 or more is pretty much guaranteed to have a B starport. Someone, somewhere on the planet is going to invest the money for it.
In a universe with a known interstellar community, opening a real starport on a hi-pop world is going to make whoever owns it gobs of money. And if the world is TL 8 or better, they can't buy all of the spaceships they are going to need from off-world. Ergo, you are looking at a B starport. Actually, you will have several, but the UWP just needs the best.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
daryen,
Well, I think your right, in the long run.
However, in Markasher, what we have is a world that remains TL-6 after 1100 years in the center of the Imperium. I'm going to guess the culture is pretty hard-core anti-change. 1100 years is a long time for the Imperium or the Megacorporations to run scores of society modifying operations. The Imperium will be trying to make it open up for contact and the general profit of the Imperium. The Megacorporations will be tyring to open up the market for their profit. But everyone will want a market of four billion people open to general traffic.
And yet, again, it's still TL-6.
I think the local populace and the history of its admittance into the Imperium is going to have considerable influence on its development, especially if the world as conquered.
Also, since TL is one of the main points that determines the size of an economic system on a world, and therefore, it's taxation, the world may be deliberately holding down its technology, and therefore its taxibility, based on past history and a desire to stick it to the Imperium for conquering it a millenium in the past. It could be a part of the national heritage.
As we can see in various parts of the world today, people are willing to carry a grudge for a long time.
Or perhaps something went especially wrong here in the big psycho-historical experiments a few centuries earlier? Who knows? (I may save that explanation for another world.)
In general, though, I'll keep the starport size increase more firmly in mind for any other High-Pop vacuum rockball worlds that I work on.
Well, I think your right, in the long run.
However, in Markasher, what we have is a world that remains TL-6 after 1100 years in the center of the Imperium. I'm going to guess the culture is pretty hard-core anti-change. 1100 years is a long time for the Imperium or the Megacorporations to run scores of society modifying operations. The Imperium will be trying to make it open up for contact and the general profit of the Imperium. The Megacorporations will be tyring to open up the market for their profit. But everyone will want a market of four billion people open to general traffic.
And yet, again, it's still TL-6.
I think the local populace and the history of its admittance into the Imperium is going to have considerable influence on its development, especially if the world as conquered.
Also, since TL is one of the main points that determines the size of an economic system on a world, and therefore, it's taxation, the world may be deliberately holding down its technology, and therefore its taxibility, based on past history and a desire to stick it to the Imperium for conquering it a millenium in the past. It could be a part of the national heritage.
As we can see in various parts of the world today, people are willing to carry a grudge for a long time.
Or perhaps something went especially wrong here in the big psycho-historical experiments a few centuries earlier? Who knows? (I may save that explanation for another world.)
In general, though, I'll keep the starport size increase more firmly in mind for any other High-Pop vacuum rockball worlds that I work on.
I do want to stress this. I am very tired of all of these hi-pop worlds with a reasonable tech that have an E starport. I am sorry, but any hi-pop world with a TL 5 or more is pretty much guaranteed to have at least a C starport. And any hi-pop world with a TL of 8 or more is pretty much guaranteed to have a B starport. Someone, somewhere on the planet is going to invest the money for it.
</font>[/QUOTE]Let's grab a list of them, then...
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
I have two sets of data. One is based on Sunbane. As far as I have been able to determine, it was an MT-era dataset, and its Allegiance Codes were MT-era.
I went through and adjusted these to be CT-era. However, I did this largely by converting entire sectors. Since I have no CT-era map of the entire Imperium, I am largely unable to deterine the accuracy of the Allegiance Codes border and rift areas.
My other data appears to be Galactic. The stellar data is more inconsistent, but the Allegiance Codes appear to be better, although I have no way of telling for sure.
Where am I going with all this?
I'm going to continue on using the Sunbane data. However, I apologize if it includes some worlds that are not Imperial, or excludes some that are.
-----------------------------------
robject,
Is there any way Mark would be willing to create a comma delimited file of Planet Name, Hex Number (or Col, Row), and Allegiance Code? One that is known to be accurate for the CT-era?
Or perhaps you know of a master list that is certain to be accurate?
I went through and adjusted these to be CT-era. However, I did this largely by converting entire sectors. Since I have no CT-era map of the entire Imperium, I am largely unable to deterine the accuracy of the Allegiance Codes border and rift areas.
My other data appears to be Galactic. The stellar data is more inconsistent, but the Allegiance Codes appear to be better, although I have no way of telling for sure.
Where am I going with all this?
I'm going to continue on using the Sunbane data. However, I apologize if it includes some worlds that are not Imperial, or excludes some that are.
-----------------------------------
robject,
Is there any way Mark would be willing to create a comma delimited file of Planet Name, Hex Number (or Col, Row), and Allegiance Code? One that is known to be accurate for the CT-era?
Or perhaps you know of a master list that is certain to be accurate?
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
I count about 194 Im worlds with Starport D- and Pop 9+.
I changed to Im worlds with Starport E- and Pop 9+, and got 105.
Hmm. How about Starport D- and Pop A+? 65.
Code:
Alpha Crucis Faro 0502 D-100AAC-F M0 V
Alpha Crucis Fairday 1303 E-100A98-E G3 V
Antares Insont 0319 E-5A7AAA-A K3 D
Antares Lejeune 0519 E-337ADD-A F4 D
Antares Anuza 2229 E-251AAD-C K6 VI
Core Dudin 0316 D-528A89-D M9 VI
Corridor Irasumshu 0417 E-554A74-6 M0 V
Dagudashaag Biik 0323 D-557AFG-9 M2 V
Dagudashaag Durgaarur 1735 D-334A64-E G1 V
Daibei Unkashe 2011 D-549AAE-D M0 IV
Daibei Laudumash 2319 D-110A99-D A1 V
Daibei Corve 1729 E-472ABA-B K1 V
Daibei Dudin 2028 D-745A67-C M1 V
Daibei Tukera 2423 E-6A3AA8-B M2 V
Daibei Hermes 1431 D-100ABA-F G6 II
Delphi Ader 0605 D-874ABE-7 M7 VI
Delphi Ursalem 1009 D-100AA9-D M2 D
Delphi Cabot 1536 D-100A99-A M4 V
Delphi Anise 1935 D-100A99-D K2 IV
Deneb Borlund 1406 E-454AAA-9 M8 VI
Deneb Ashasi 1618 E-9D5AA8-C M3 V
Deneb Giikusu 2316 E-647ABC-B M8 V
Deneb Askigaak 0629 E-549AA8-C M1 V
Deneb Beaxon 0439 D-88AA99-C F1 D
Diaspora Zeeland 1602 E-989AA9-E K2 V
Diaspora Tiasle 1901 D-656AFF-B M9 VI
Diaspora Ledge 1223 E-658A9B-B M1 V
Empty Quarter Gimushi 1431 D-54AAA9-8 K8 V
Fornast Khangesa 1704 E-849A8B-D F4 V
Gushemege Tlauwao 2127 D-330A9C-9 K0 V
Gushemege Sagal 0339 X-887A9C-6 K1 IV
Ilelish Kkikla 0406 D-693AAB-C G2 V
Ilelish Kigaru 3004 D-594AEA-C F0 D
Ilelish Shashinke 0620 E-686A79-C K0 D
Ilelish Duel 0719 E-536ADC-9 K0 D
Ilelish Murda 1311 D-766ABD-9 F9 D
Ilelish Rekagun 0330 D-326A85-E F3 V
Ilelish Dorbyora 0821 D-422AFF-E F2 V
Ley Blue 1130 E-334AB9-8 K2 V
Ley Flous 2122 X-855ACG-6 K2 V
Lishun Irgukh 0303 E-331A85-A F1 D
Lishun Rodhen 1117 D-443AB6-D F8 V
Lishun Lokita 1515 E-528A97-D M5 V
Lishun Morin 2211 E-85AAAC-9 G3 V
Lishun Orpheus 3111 D-8D3A88-B G2 V
Lishun Tonnes 0722 D-897ABC-C G6 V
Lishun Ixteline 0723 D-524A84-D G9 V
Magyar Beagle 3129 D-766A99-A K8 D
Massilia Leam 0837 E-110A83-D F3 V
Old Expanses Diacy 0306 E-667A74-9 G2 V
Spinward Marches Louzy 1604 D-322A88-8 M5 V
Spinward Marches Rethe 2408 E-230AA8-8 G7 V
Trojan Reaches Kryslion 2002 D-483AA9-9 F6 V
Verge Iedde 2816 E-62AA88-E M8 III
Verge Tiawan 2828 D-88AA87-B M3 V
Vland Guusimka 1407 E-539A77-C M6 V
Vland Ansin 2412 E-563A95-C F2 V
Vland Lourer 3011 E-594A8A-C M9 V
Vland Fharnas 2328 D-8A8A97-A M6 V
Vland Isle 1038 E-68AA87-A M9 V
Vland Aki 2533 D-6A7AFF-D M0 III
Vland Kane 2631 E-789ABE-9 K9 V
Zarushagar Numdaag 0112 D-253A85-A F1 V
Zarushagar Khipge 0914 E-756AA6-9 G4 V
Zarushagar World 2740 D-766AA8-8 K3 D
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RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
And, also of some concern to me are the presence of Starport A/B on worlds with Pop 0. (Actually, any world of Pop 0 and any starport above E is a problem for me, but let's keep the problem manageable.
110 Worlds.
110 Worlds.
Code:
Antares Antares0304 0304 B-646022-9 G4 V
Antares Antares1808 1808 A-514000-B M5 V
Antares Antares0423 0423 B-672001-8 M3 V
Antares Antares0639 0639 A-568003-A F2 V
Antares Antares1838 1838 B-689010-8 F8 D
Antares Antares2637 2637 B-463005-B M8 D
Core Core1204 1204 B-447047-D M4 D
Core Core0517 0517 A-726023-D M2 V
Core Trevor 0125 B-664000-C M6 V
Core Dunkle 0822 B-140000-D G9 V
Core Celetron 0922 A-375000-F M1 V
Core Suhtlam 1522 B-7C0000-A M7 V
Core Elinz 2122 B-476000-D M9 V
Core Azpun 0138 A-873000-A M2 V
Core Core1233 1233 A-375025-B M4 VI
Core Core2334 2334 B-233000-E G7 V
Core Core2439 2439 B-384000-B M7 V
Corridor Desolate 0608 B-9B2002-A G5 VI
Corridor Ighoth 1904 A-333000-C K9 V
Corridor Braden IV 2202 A-877000-D F4 V
Corridor Brariun 2205 B-629034-9 M5 V
Dagudashaag Dagudashaag1507 1507 B-957000-A M2 V
Dagudashaag Dagudashaag0920 0920 B-545048-8 M0 II
Dagudashaag Dagudashaag2426 2426 A-623025-A M2 V
Dagudashaag Dagudashaag0635 0635 B-500021-D M9 IV
Dagudashaag Dagudashaag2239 2239 B-130000-F F8 V
Daibei Daibei1608 1608 A-675037-C M9 V
Daibei Daibei2806 2806 B-86A027-D K9 V
Daibei Daibei3206 3206 B-782005-D M0 V
Daibei Daibei0527 0527 B-9C3011-D K9 V
Daibei Daibei1130 1130 B-AC8033-D M5 V
Daibei Daibei0333 0333 A-366001-E K0 V
Delphi Delphi1501 1501 A-310010-E G6 V
Delphi Delphi0218 0218 B-244004-8 M0 V
Delphi Delphi1138 1138 A-310010-9 K9 D
Deneb Pecena 1115 B-347014-A M4 III
Deneb Jurburk 2414 B-454033-B M6 V
Deneb Maricutin 0534 B-764000-A F9 V
Diaspora Diaspora0616 0616 B-6A0000-E F2 V
Empty Quarter Empty Quarter1726 1726 A-232023-9 K6 V
Fornast Fornast0420 0420 B-856040-8 M6 V
Fornast Fornast2315 2315 B-493004-A M8 V
Fornast Fornast0936 0936 B-232014-B A5 V
Fornast Fornast1232 1232 B-899020-D M5 V
Fornast Fornast2037 2037 B-AC7000-C G0 V
Gushemege Gushemege0236 0236 B-8A5003-9 K7 V
Gushemege Gushemege0433 0433 B-646002-9 M2 V
Gushemege Gushemege0737 0737 B-585020-B M3 V
Gushemege Gushemege2031 2031 A-222013-F M8 V
Ilelish Ilelish0409 0409 B-AC8033-B M9 III
Ilelish Base 1903 1903 B-442041-B F7 D
Ilelish Ilelish0819 0819 B-437001-D M7 V
Ilelish Reserve 2217 B-776000-D K7 VI
Ilelish Sigma Station 3119 B-561010-C G5 V
Ilelish Ilelish1623 1623 B-202000-B M3 V
Ilelish Ilelish1624 1624 A-300000-C M5 V
Ilelish Ilelish2922 2922 B-562034-B F2 VI
Ley Ley0810 0810 A-000000-F M1 V
Ley Ley0111 0111 A-A7A026-9 K0 VI
Ley Ley0616 0616 B-000023-D K3 V
Ley Ley1534 1534 B-200000-C M0 V
Lishun Vakada 0112 B-100000-D M9 V
Lishun Kaman 0914 B-515034-D M0 V
Lishun Orwell 2411 B-785015-9 K6 V
Lishun Kuursarda 3012 B-565014-8 K7 V
Lishun Gikuniir 2226 B-501031-8 M8 III
Lishun Dene Po 0533 B-673020-8 F1 V
Lishun Gamulag 1138 B-585020-B G0 VI
Magyar Magyar0815 0815 B-7B5000-C M5 II
Massilia Selenopod 0308 B-331003-C M8 V
Massilia Cronin 0502 B-55205A-A F6 V
Massilia Lebensraum 0507 B-544000-B G7 VI
Massilia Gade 0604 B-797021-9 M6 V
Massilia Clausen 0609 A-456002-D K1 D
Massilia Terelleresika 2306 A-342031-C G5 V
Massilia Hamagami 3207 B-300000-E M9 V
Massilia Ambriana 0118 B-200034-B A8 V
Massilia Reetage 1220 B-557015-9 F9 V
Massilia Narrad 1717 B-321040-B F9 IV
Massilia Charted 2019 B-585020-A F6 VI
Massilia Ccoman 2714 B-76A003-E G2 D
Massilia Kirgis 0325 B-95A010-B F8 D
Massilia Rigold 0434 A-264000-E M1 D
Massilia Broo 1832 B-541043-9 F8 V
Massilia Landis 2640 B-522003-D M2 II
Old Expanses Kresh 3213 B-641000-8 M0 V
Old Expanses Haven 3225 A-537000-0 K7 V
Reft Earl Center 1102 A-998011-9 K9 D
Verge Verge2210 2210 B-354010-D M4 V
Verge Verge2319 2319 B-756000-D M1 VI
Verge Verge1426 1426 B-494000-E M4 V
Vland Shabii 2408 B-854010-A M5 V
Vland Irila 2211 B-568003-9 M7 V
Vland Ashbakha 2216 A-672000-A M4 V
Vland Karlum 2221 B-5AA000-E A2 V
Vland Sadkha 3221 B-836013-D G6 V
Vland Zarurza 1539 B-95A000-A M5 V
Vland Vanutappan 3231 B-447047-D F7 III
Zarushagar Zarushagar1205 1205 B-000002-D G7 V
Zarushagar Zarushagar1504 1504 B-310010-C M8 IV
Zarushagar Zarushagar2910 2910 B-654002-A F0 V
Zarushagar Zarushagar0120 0120 B-310010-A M5 V
Zarushagar Zarushagar0513 0513 A-310010-C G3 V
Zarushagar Zarushagar2712 2712 B-310010-D K7 V
Zarushagar Sensee 1922 B-310010-A G4 VI
Zarushagar Zarushagar1735 1735 B-310010-D G0 V
Zarushagar Zarushagar1934 1934 B-310010-A M1 V
Zarushagar Zarushagar2131 2131 B-310010-E M0 V
Zarushagar Zarushagar2840 2840 B-310010-C M9 V
Zarushagar Zarushagar2933 2933 B-310010-C K1 V
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