UWP Changes

[Gruffty]

Originally posted by robject:
Gruffty, I suggest that the term "desert worlds" in AOTI is a misnomer:

I'm afraid I don't agree; I believe AotI actually means a De world, as per canon Trade Code parameters.

in fact, AOTI defines "desert world", i.e. open circle, as having hydrographic percentage zero. It doesn't mention atmosphere or whether the 'water' is 'water'.

You're quite corrct instating that. However, the introduction to AotI says:

"open circles ( O ) represent desert worlds (with a hydrographic percentage of zero, or without easily accessible water)"

That's actually the canon definition of a De world in most of the rules sets.

I'm tempted to say that "desert" doesn't mean trade code De, but simply means "hydrographics zero". Supp 10 and AM6 seem to agree with this usage.

I don't agree. I've checked the following Supp 10 worlds against the Trade Code parameters for De worlds:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Gramercy 0405 B330525-8 Po Ni De (p. 8)
Ixtloc 0509 B530487-D Po Ni De (p. 8)
Ganelon 0109 C430212-9 Po Ni De (p. 10)
Imarir 0710 A250877-F Po De (p. 10)
Yeremyh 0204 A5207BF-F Po Na De (p. 12)
Hieronymus 0506 X530622-6 Na De (p. 18)
Wanish Tyo 0203 A630886-E Po Na De (p. 20)
Eyck 0406 B130879-E Na De (p. 26)
Swinburne 0106 C720620-A Po Ni De (p. 34)
Luzon 0201 D420400-7 Po Ni De (p. 34)
Parsifal 0109 B730878-B Po Na De (p. 38)
Elsinore 0205 C1206A9-C Po Na De (p. 40)
Ochre 0301 A250839-E Po De (p. 40)</pre>[/QUOTE]These all fit with the Trade Code parameters for a desert world (Atmo = 2+, Hydro = 0). All other worlds fall outside the De Trade Code parameters.

There aren't any worlds with both Va and De Trade Codes, or worlds with Ic and De Trade Codes. Worlds are either Va, Ic or De. I'd say the Trade Codes are pretty definitive on this, and this is the basis from which my "skeleton" UWP system arises.

 

[Gruffty]

P.S.

Sorry to be such a stickler on this

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Gruffty:
P.S.

Sorry to be such a stickler on this

Not at all. We ought to be faithful to the intent. I've asked Marc to comment. Your suggestion makes sense, especially since the "De" trade code means "water not present or readily available", just like AOTI's explanation of the open circle.

I am wondering how Vacuum worlds are represented. Am I missing something? Does this mean there will be no Va worlds?

 

[Gruffty]

Originally posted by robject:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gruffty:
P.S.

Sorry to be such a stickler on this

Not at all. We ought to be faithful to the intent. I've asked Marc to comment. Your suggestion makes sense, especially since the "De" trade code means "water not present or readily available", just like AOTI's explanation of the open circle.</font>[/QUOTE]<Mr Burns: Exxxxcccceellllennnt!>

I am wondering how Vacuum worlds are represented. Am I missing something? Does this mean there will be no Va worlds?

Nope, plenty of Va and Ic worlds I've been through Supp 10 with a fine tooth Ganoan Goat comb: all the Trade Codes match with the UWPs for De, Ic and Va. And Wa and Fl as well.

 

[robject]

You Can Help

I have automated the process by which AOTI UWPs are checked against Sunbane data. We can measure the accuracy of sectors as fast as we can churn out AOTI samples.

My process boils down AOTI data into a small string:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">hex starport-world type[-base code] [gg present] [world name]</pre>[/QUOTE]hex: the hex location (e.g. 1910)
starport: the starport code (e.g. A). Lowercase is fine.
world type: wa (wet) de (dry) as (asteroid)
base code: S, N, A, B, W, D. Lowercase is fine.
gg present: just add the letter G or g.
world name: if there's a name, add it. This is how we know it's a high pop world.

Example:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">3124 a-wa-a g mora

Hex 3124
Starport A
Wet world
Base code A
Gas giant(s) present
High pop world (name: Mora)</pre>[/QUOTE]I could use 40 samples from Alpha Crucis, Antares, Core, Corridor, Dagudashaag, Daibei, Dark Nebula, Delphi, Deneb (assuming Daryen thinks it's worthwhile), Diaspora, Empty Quarter, Fornast, Glimmerdrift (?), Gushemege, Gvurrdon (why not?), Ley, Lishun, Magyar, Old Expanses, Reaver's Deep, Reft (such as it is), Riftspan, Trojan Reaches, Verge, Vland.

Please include Way stations, Depot, and systems with naval + scout bases.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Gruffty:
Nope, plenty of Va and Ic worlds I've been through Supp 10 with a fine tooth Ganoan Goat comb: all the Trade Codes match with the UWPs for De, Ic and Va. And Wa and Fl as well.

I guess what I'm asking is: how do we get from an AOTI string to a Va world? Take a world in Zarushagar. If it's an open circle, then it's a Desert world, meaning it as an atmosphere. If it's a closed circle, it has water available.

I can't get to the case where there's a vacuum rock without water. Or perhaps that's intentional?

 

[Gruffty]

Ah, I think I missed your meaning in your post four above this one, robject. Sorry. I see what you were aiming at now.

I suppose if you go purely by AotI's symbols, then no, there wouldn't be any Va worlds. Nor would there be any Fl worlds - only asteroid belts, De worlds and worlds with free standing water.

I hadn't thought of it like that

 

[robject]

It may be important. Zarushagar is pretty much a faulty sector in more than one way, so I'd like to scrap it and go back to AOTI.

In that case, for my purposes, the open circle could represent more than a desert world.

 

[Gruffty]

It could possibly be intentional, I suppose. However, not having any Va, Ic or Fl worlds would limit the gaming universe a quite a bit.

We need a work-around type thingy...

 

[Gruffty]

Originally posted by robject:
It may be important. Zarushagar is pretty much a faulty sector in more than one way, so I'd like to scrap it and go back to AOTI.

In that case, for my purposes, the open circle could represent more than a desert world.

It a distinct possiblity, robject. I will try to come up with an acceptable work around for AotI with regards to Va, Ic and Fl worlds.

 

[robject]

In other news, I think Massilia data might need to be preserved as-is. Otherwise a printed product -- Knightfall -- would be partially invalidated. I do suggest, however, that the combination naval bases - scout bases be re-inserted into the Massilia sector data.

 

[Gruffty]

BTW, I would suggest that any work-around we come up with for Va, Ic and Fl worlds is run by Marc for his approval. He may well have his own idea(s)/better idea(s) on how to work round this problem.

 

[Gruffty]

CT Supp 10, p. 45:

"Other Remarks: In addition to trade classifications, world listing's Remarks section may note other features.
<Snip>
Desert World: The world has an atmosphere of 2 through 9 and a hydrographic percentage of 0."

So. It appears that robject and I were both 50% wrong and 50% right

It seems that "De" isn't a Trade Code/Classification at all, and this definition further refines what we're looking at in relation to "desert worlds".

 

[robject]

Marc has this to say about the open circle versus the "De" trade classification.


Me:

Worlds on AOTI have open circles and filled circles. Filled circles denote 'wet' worlds; open circles denote worlds where water is not readily available.

Does "water not available" equal the "De" trade code? If so, there are atmospheric implications as well.

Marc:

If I remember correctly,

open circle meant Hydro = 0, but size greater than 0. That is De (or should be). I'll have to look.

Me:

I believe open circle = hydrographics Zero, and nothing else. If it truly means "Desert world" as in "De" trade code, then I believe it would be impossible to derive a vacuum world from AOTI data.


Marc:

Yes, since Desert implies atmosphere. Open circle means H=0. It also means S>0.

 

[robject]

Gruff, I see no harm in recycling Spica's trade codes, since they are in accord with AOTI. On the other hand, I'm going to have to ignore most of the data for many other sectors.

I think Solomani Rim is another "amnesty" sector, since it has also seen print...

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by robject:
In other news, I think Massilia data might need to be preserved as-is.

Robject,

I don't want to jog any elbows here, but means an awful lot of TL16 worlds have just been added.

Otherwise a printed product -- Knightfall -- would be partially invalidated.

ISTR in one of the Traveller Digest or MTJ Q&A columns, that Joe Fugate or another DGP alumnus partially explained the inclusion of TL16 worlds by pointing to WBH's expanded TL codes? The TL16 worlds may have just reached TL16 in some of the fourteen TL groups but not all.

If memory serves, the same explanation was used for Vincennes/Deneb.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[robject]

Here are my samples taken from AOTI on the Ilelish and Massilia sectors. Each are close to 40 samples, and contain Depots, Way stations, and combo bases (i.e. navy + scouts). As I transcribed more worlds, my shorthand became more compact.

Note that Massilia is more like a true random sample, while for Ilelish I simply took worlds from subsector A (which is fine, since they're all supposed to be random). For Ilelish to be a better sample, it should have more of the potential-problem-systems: combo bases and way stations. There are usually only a few of each in a sector.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">&lt;ilelish aoti sample&gt;
0101 b-de
0102 b-wa
0108 bwag
0110 bwag
0204 b-wa
0205 bwag
0206 cwa
0207 b-de-n g nasi
0208 bwa
0209 awag
0303 bwa
0305 dwag
0307 bwag tylio
0309 bwang
0401 b-de g eggii
0402 b-wa
0403 e-wa-g ansha
0406 dwag kkikla
0407 awag
0409 b-de g
# 0409 in Sunbane has hydrographics == 8!
0410 a-de g
0502 bwa kagaki
0505 e-wa
0506 dwag
0510 awang arlumer
0602 bwan
0605 awag
0607 cwag
0704 awag
0705 bwang
0706 ewag
0708 dwag adia
0709 bwang
0806 d-wa-s g
0808 bwang
0810 b-de
&lt;/ilelish aoti sample&gt;


&lt;massilia aoti sample&gt;
0130 a-wa g
0301 b-wa-d
0312 a-wa g
0314 a-de-n g ergo
0425 d-de g
0436 b-wa-s g
0522 bwag
0540 b-wa g
0609 a-wa-n g
0837 e-de g leam
1014 ewag
1025 d-wa-s g
1027 bwang
1120 bwang
1133 awang
1134 cwasg
1234 basg
1308 bwang
1408 bwang
1436 bwang
1508 adeg
1905 bwang
1907 cwag
1909 bwag
2007 b-wa-s g iggarir
2032 cwag
2135 bwag
2305 b-de-n g
2306 awag
2506 bwang
2540 b-de g oreo
2735 b-de-w g
2905 b-wa-w g
2916 b-de-a g
2926 b-de-a g
3001 cwag
3003 awag
3013 a-wa g palasha
3027 b-de-n g
3139 bwag
&lt;/massilia aoti sample&gt;</pre>[/QUOTE]

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by robject:
In other news, I think Massilia data might need to be preserved as-is.

Robject,

I don't want to jog any elbows here, but means an awful lot of TL16 worlds have just been added.

</font>[/QUOTE]Thanks Bill, you're right. Unless I hear a better suggestion, all those TLG worlds are going to get a smackdown for Second Survey.

 

[Gruffty]

Originally posted by robject:
Marc has this to say about the open circle versus the "De" trade classification.

Me:
I believe open circle = hydrographics Zero, and nothing else. If it truly means "Desert world" as in "De" trade code, then I believe it would be impossible to derive a vacuum world from AOTI data.

Marc:

Yes, since Desert implies atmosphere. Open circle means H=0. It also means S>0.

*DINGGGG!!!!*

Instant work-around. Problem solved. We can effectively go all ways: Va, Ic and De.

Thanks, robject

 

[robject]

Sample for Corridor (my second favorite sector).

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">corridor aoti sample
0104 a-de khouth
0106 bwang
0206 c-de-s g mikesh
0221 c-wa g-na
0407 c-as-g
0606 b-de-w
0910 b-wa-a g drayne
0912 awang
0913 awag
0916 awang
1414 c-de-s g
1418 c-de g-cs
1504 a-wa g-cs
1511 a-wa-d g
1515 e-wa ashima
1605 e-de g
1611 b-wa-s g
1711 a-wa g
1712 c-wa
1713 c-wa-s g
1808 awang
1811 c-wa-s g
1840 awag
1908 bwang
1913 x-as g
2006 bwang
2010 cwag
2012 cwas
2037 a-de-a g
2039 bwang
2040 awag
2505 b-de-a g plunge
2837 b-wa-b
3039 c-de-s g
3106 c-as-s g
3209 b-wa-a
/corridor aoti sample</pre>[/QUOTE]Differences in Sunbane:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Hex Error Rational
Lots Vargr invasion data obscures original base codes
0104 water should not be present [Fl - ok]
0206 water should not be present [Fl - ok]
1414 water should not be present [Ic - ok]
1418 water should not be present [Fl - ok]
2037 water should not be present [Ic - ok]</pre>[/QUOTE]Report for Corridor Sunbane sector

Corridor Sunbane has Vargr invasion-era base codes, which will have to be reverted.

Please note: Open-circle worlds may be any of Desert, Vacuum, Ice, or Fluid-sea worlds.

Assumption: Filled-circle worlds require water seas, and should not permit Fl or Ic codes. Yes? No?