The aerostats of Venus (and Limbes, and ...)

[rfmcdpei]

Hello!

A bit over a decade ago, Gregory Landis pointed out ("Colonization of Venus" is the paper, Wikipedia has a brief version) that, fifty kilometres above the surface of Venus in the upper atmosphere of that planet, conditions (gravity, atmospheric pressure, temperature) were quite Earth-like, differing only in Venus' lack of oxygen. In order to take advantage of these relatively hospitable conditions, Benford suggested the construction of aerostat cities and habitats in the upper atmosphere, using anything from the habitat's breathable oxygen/nitrogen mixes up to hydrogen as a lifting gas. The major problem would be the construction

Landis' ideas recently inspired a heated discussion ("The Gardens of Aphrodite") in the Transhuman Space section of the Steve Jackson Games forums. The general conclusion of that discussion seems to be that, given the lack of obvious resources in Venus' upper atmosphere and the utter unsurvivability of the Venus surface, large-scale aerostat colonies weren't likely to take off as popular destinations. This is even more the case for 23xx: Why on Earth (or Tirane) would you head to an enclosed colony floating above sulfuric acid rainstorms when you can go to far more pleasant Chengdu or Joi, even Aurore or Sans Souci?

Aerostat habitats on Venus-type worlds still can play a role in 23xx. Different governments might be interested in maintaining science stations on worlds like Venus and Limbes, in support of scientific study on those worlds. (They might already be doing so: If Limbes is a post-garden greenhouse, how did the various researchers retrieve fossils of hundreds of species on that world?) More outré uses for this technology could involve secret facilities of one kind or another, Virgle-like redoubts for survivalists, or national or corporate research facilities.

Thoughts?

 

[ben51]

Yeah, I read the THS thread.

I have an old PopSci magazine which contains an article discussing the possiblity of life existing in Venus's atmosphere. If this were true it could possibly have research/industrial applications that would warrent settlement of the planet. Also, taking a page from Allen Steele's Near Space universe, perhapes Venus undegoes a series of massive geological upheavals that exposes all kinds of interesting mineral and such, including Tantalum.

Finally, given the near dystopic Big Brother society invisioned by Colin on Earth, maybe Venus has become the haven for free-thinkers, libertarians and other independence minded people (including the not-so-law-abiding elements). This could be similar to the black-sheep status Venus has in Brin's Uplift novels or a cyberpunk hell-hole right out of a Gibson novel. If settlement began prior to FTL than it is possible that Venus attained self-sustaining status before malcontents had access to other extra-solar planets. This would give Venus the leg up in becoming the destination of choice for these type of people and the proximity to Earth's link-net doesn't hurt. Especially if you are an aspiring survivalist/conspiracy theorist/anarchist in the early stage of writing you grand manifesto.

Benjamin

 

[oletheros]

To take it one step further, it is theoretically possible to construct the same kinds of aerostats in the upper atmosphere of a gas giant like Jupiter. If the platform was far enough out, it would be at 1g. Of course, you would still need to provide oxygen, water and heat, but those are standard for most installations anyway. And the side benefit of hanging out in a hydrogen atmosphere is abundant natural resources.

 

[atpollard]

A possible reason for a Venus colony:

"Sulfuric acid has many applications, and is one of the top products of the chemical industry. World production in 2001 was 165 million tonnes, with an approximate value of US$8 billion. Principal uses include ore processing, fertilizer manufacturing, oil refining, wastewater processing, and chemical synthesis."

FROM HERE

Just add tankers from Venus to the ore processors in the Asteroid Belt.

 

[Anders]

I think sulphuric acid manufacturing makes a great deal of economic sense at least in the solar system. Unless there are easily accessible sulphur dioxide deposits on Io, I think a cloud city on Venus extracting tibanna... ahem sulphuric acid works well.

If it is located just above the cloudtops the temperature outside would be a frigid -100, while if it is in the clouds it could be close to normal earth temperature. The higher level would likely be less stressful in terms of corrosion, wind speed and the high reflectivity of the clouds would make it an extremely bright environment where solar collectors could be placed everywhere (Solar airplanes make sense here).

The Venus base might have been built at some point for scientific purposes, been extended with sulphuric acid industry and then gone into periods of decline and prosperity. I don't quite see it as a good refuge from the nanny states of Earth; the Belt is better for that. Expanding it requires importing off-planet resources, which makes it expensive (maybe one could polymerize carbon dioxide into some sort of structural material).

As I see it is instead like a small Canadian mining town dependent on the demand for their ore. It might have done well until extrasolar imports and the development of extrasolar chemical industry on King and Kimanjano made it uncompetitive, gone into a long decline, then suddenly revived as Kimanjano got cut off. Now it is passing through wild boomtown years as Xenon corporation, Harbin Petrochem and Vendee Spatiale struggle to expand it or sabotage each other's efforts.

 

[Plankowner]

To take it one step further, it is theoretically possible to construct the same kinds of aerostats in the upper atmosphere of a gas giant like Jupiter. If the platform was far enough out, it would be at 1g. Of course, you would still need to provide oxygen, water and heat, but those are standard for most installations anyway. And the side benefit of hanging out in a hydrogen atmosphere is abundant natural resources.

Actually, Saturn would be a better candidate.

The 1g gravity line is at 1 Bar pressure in the atmosphere (the only known GG with that combination).

There is a book called "Saturn Rukh" that describes a mission to Saturn and discusses this topic.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Actually, Saturn would be a better candidate.

The 1g gravity line is at 1 Bar pressure in the atmosphere (the only known GG with that combination).

There is a book called "Saturn Rukh" that describes a mission to Saturn and discusses this topic.

Robert Forward, right? He had great science.

At any rate, a Saturn station sounds like something that Xenon might be interested in.

 

[Anders]

A Saturn station exporting helium isotopes might be a good investment for Xenon.

Another gas giant where a cloud station makes sense is Borlaug in the King system. This would be a good way to study the apparently unique biosphere, and being a major system would mean cheap transports and supplies.

In general I think cloud stations make good observation posts and perhaps gas mining, but militarily they are very vulnerable. It is hard to stealth them, clouds are not enough to hide from good sensors and the balloon systems will be vulnerable. Maybe they work as hiding places where nobody looks, like in a gas giant atmosphere.

 

[Colin]

Hello!


Aerostat habitats on Venus-type worlds still can play a role in 23xx. Different governments might be interested in maintaining science stations on worlds like Venus and Limbes, in support of scientific study on those worlds. (They might already be doing so: If Limbes is a post-garden greenhouse, how did the various researchers retrieve fossils of hundreds of species on that world?) More outré uses for this technology could involve secret facilities of one kind or another, Virgle-like redoubts for survivalists, or national or corporate research facilities.

Thoughts?

Heh. Several years ago, I was a contributor to "The Venus Planet Sourcebook" for Jovian Chronicles. I wrote up the sections on the cities, including something called "Buoyant Estates" Giant balloons with small cities hanging from them. So yeah, I might have an idea about it. One even had a ball diamond.

In 2320, these floating platforms are mostly about research, with some industry to help meet expenses. Scotsdale ChemEx maintains the largest base, and is in the process of testing a rotating tether to lift chemical production off the platform on a regular basis. This tether is a technology demonstrator, created by Sunward Dynamics, an Outward corporation. They hope to market the tether to many colony worlds as a far cheaper alternative to a beanstalk.

 

[Anders]

Testing tethers at Venus is a smart start. One of the real problems I would expect at many places is that their rotation through a planetary magnetic field produces unwanted currents. Venus is free from that problem (and if the tether fails it will not drop on somebody, plus that the testing can be done conveniently close to the Earthside R&D labs). On the other hand, by making use of this property one can also do simple altitude adjustments by generating charge from solar cells and placing it at the right ends.

Hmm... tethers. This might be a pretty good way for spaceships to slow down or change velocity vector while passing gas giants. Just extend long superconducting tethers or loops, run some of the powerplant output through them and let electromagnetism do the work. Or, in an emergency an old ship hand may remember those coils of superconductor lying around and come up with a wild plan to get power to the wrecked systems to save the ship as it approaches its fiery end at a perigee inside the atmosphere.

 

[Anders]

Another reason to mine the Venus atmosphere: deuterium. On earth the deuterium/hydrogen ratio is 0.00016, on Venus it is 100 times larger, 0.016. This is because as the sun photodissociated the original water vapor in the atmosphere the lighter hydrogen escaped more easily, leaving the deuterium behind. Gathering sulphuric acid vapor is also a way of getting deuterium by separating the heavy acid from the light acid.