T4 gets a bad rap

[TheDS]

While I have most of the T4 books, I never really got into it that much, mostly because I didn't have a group for it. My group broke up about the time TNE was released, so MT was the only Traveller I actually played (and even that was mostly throwback from the group's CT days before I joined it).

My all time favorite book is FFS1. Very well presented, and let you make just about anything. The basic task-system of TNE was that each level of difficulty was twice as hard as the preceding one. I thought it was a good mechanic, and works very well with combat; it's totally obvious that shooting at something that's twice as far away as something else is going to be twice as hard to hit, so it's one difficulty level higher. Same for something traveling twice as fast as something else. Made it real easy to imagine how all my guns and ships and tanks and jets might work in the real world. It felt REAL, like nothing else had before or since.

FFS2 needed DESPERATELY to look more like its predecessor. All those tables in the back made it impossible to tell what some of them were for, and took a long time to find them. I much prefered having the charts next to the text that explained what they meant. No extra page-flipping. And why couldn't they put in some blank space now and then, and keep things looking somewhat organized? Or a diagram or two? Or maybe explain some of the tech?

I find it very hard to read through FFS2, and it's possible only because I was so familiar with FFS1, but it's no joy, and I set 2 aside after a few minutes of banging my head and squinting, and pull out FFS1 and find what I want in about 10 seconds.

I didn't pay much attention to the T4 task system, or make any characters. (Never made characters in TNE either, but I did study tasks, since I wanted the group to use the game, a few weeks before we broke up.) I read through the background stuff, though, and you know what?

T4 millieu is the same as TNE millieu without the virus stuff. Think about it. Both eras have you building a fallen empire on the ashes of an old one. There's lawlessness and chaos everywhere. It was the same setting, with a few names and dates changed. (And no virus.)

Having played some GURPS (not G:T) with my new group, I really like the character creation concept: here's a number of points, make anything you want, and FRAG the dice. They give you a lot of info on how some one would behave with certain abilities and disadvantages too. Makes it a little easier to act out something, and to have something to act out. I also like that the tasks are always 3 dice, rolled under your Skill+DMs.

Sure, you can add in all kinds of detail, and it can get REALLY bogged down if you add enough of it, but what doesn't?

I came across a game that dispenses with a lot of the excessive detail, and allows you to build a whole character in about 2 minutes (once you're familiar with the system). Only need part of a sheet of paper for it, and tasks are real simple too. No need to roll for every stupid little thing. I LIKE reducing the amount of crap in a game. It's about GAMING, not CRAP. With a little work, it could be the next GURPS.

Linkage: http://www.auroragames.com/

If I ever DO get a group that wants to play Traveller, I've got no problem with giving T4 a try; I'd like to put all that money I spent to some use!

 

[TheDS]

While I have most of the T4 books, I never really got into it that much, mostly because I didn't have a group for it. My group broke up about the time TNE was released, so MT was the only Traveller I actually played (and even that was mostly throwback from the group's CT days before I joined it).

My all time favorite book is FFS1. Very well presented, and let you make just about anything. The basic task-system of TNE was that each level of difficulty was twice as hard as the preceding one. I thought it was a good mechanic, and works very well with combat; it's totally obvious that shooting at something that's twice as far away as something else is going to be twice as hard to hit, so it's one difficulty level higher. Same for something traveling twice as fast as something else. Made it real easy to imagine how all my guns and ships and tanks and jets might work in the real world. It felt REAL, like nothing else had before or since.

FFS2 needed DESPERATELY to look more like its predecessor. All those tables in the back made it impossible to tell what some of them were for, and took a long time to find them. I much prefered having the charts next to the text that explained what they meant. No extra page-flipping. And why couldn't they put in some blank space now and then, and keep things looking somewhat organized? Or a diagram or two? Or maybe explain some of the tech?

I find it very hard to read through FFS2, and it's possible only because I was so familiar with FFS1, but it's no joy, and I set 2 aside after a few minutes of banging my head and squinting, and pull out FFS1 and find what I want in about 10 seconds.

I didn't pay much attention to the T4 task system, or make any characters. (Never made characters in TNE either, but I did study tasks, since I wanted the group to use the game, a few weeks before we broke up.) I read through the background stuff, though, and you know what?

T4 millieu is the same as TNE millieu without the virus stuff. Think about it. Both eras have you building a fallen empire on the ashes of an old one. There's lawlessness and chaos everywhere. It was the same setting, with a few names and dates changed. (And no virus.)

Having played some GURPS (not G:T) with my new group, I really like the character creation concept: here's a number of points, make anything you want, and FRAG the dice. They give you a lot of info on how some one would behave with certain abilities and disadvantages too. Makes it a little easier to act out something, and to have something to act out. I also like that the tasks are always 3 dice, rolled under your Skill+DMs.

Sure, you can add in all kinds of detail, and it can get REALLY bogged down if you add enough of it, but what doesn't?

I came across a game that dispenses with a lot of the excessive detail, and allows you to build a whole character in about 2 minutes (once you're familiar with the system). Only need part of a sheet of paper for it, and tasks are real simple too. No need to roll for every stupid little thing. I LIKE reducing the amount of crap in a game. It's about GAMING, not CRAP. With a little work, it could be the next GURPS.

Linkage: http://www.auroragames.com/

If I ever DO get a group that wants to play Traveller, I've got no problem with giving T4 a try; I'd like to put all that money I spent to some use!

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by TheDS:
Having played some GURPS (not G:T) with my new group, I really like the character creation concept: here's a number of points, make anything you want, and FRAG the dice.

I guess this is a profound difference between some players and others. I'm not very much in favour of entirely diceless creation systems. Some people love 'tinkering' their character into their ideal 'vision'. Me, I find that to be both unrealistic and annoying to boot. I find those folk get so embroiled in the neat things they can craft for their character, they start treating him like he was part of their real-world family, which is a bit much.

I personally prefer to have dice involved. After all, my life hasn't entirely come out as I've planned it... I've made some broad decisions and exerted some effort but lots has happened I wouldn't have planned, and the MT generation system captured this to my mind. I prefer the character creation school of 'the dice give me birth, they give me form.... then I make some decisions about what I do with it'. I always found it more interesting to try to imagine how a character born with stats XYZABC would react to a situation (often because this caused me to try to think about situations I wouldn't have independently evolved...). I found a lot of 'design from the ground up' types tended to play the same bland character from game to game whereas the roll-em-up variety tended to produce some tough decisions and some interesting results. Yes, some people just couldn't wrap their minds around these situations - not every player is a born Role Player. They vary in ability and desire.

Nothing wrong with that, but GT to me is taking the interesting part out of character creation.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by TheDS:
Having played some GURPS (not G:T) with my new group, I really like the character creation concept: here's a number of points, make anything you want, and FRAG the dice.

I guess this is a profound difference between some players and others. I'm not very much in favour of entirely diceless creation systems. Some people love 'tinkering' their character into their ideal 'vision'. Me, I find that to be both unrealistic and annoying to boot. I find those folk get so embroiled in the neat things they can craft for their character, they start treating him like he was part of their real-world family, which is a bit much.

I personally prefer to have dice involved. After all, my life hasn't entirely come out as I've planned it... I've made some broad decisions and exerted some effort but lots has happened I wouldn't have planned, and the MT generation system captured this to my mind. I prefer the character creation school of 'the dice give me birth, they give me form.... then I make some decisions about what I do with it'. I always found it more interesting to try to imagine how a character born with stats XYZABC would react to a situation (often because this caused me to try to think about situations I wouldn't have independently evolved...). I found a lot of 'design from the ground up' types tended to play the same bland character from game to game whereas the roll-em-up variety tended to produce some tough decisions and some interesting results. Yes, some people just couldn't wrap their minds around these situations - not every player is a born Role Player. They vary in ability and desire.

Nothing wrong with that, but GT to me is taking the interesting part out of character creation.

 

[TheDS]

I have seen - WAAAAY too often - people unhappy with those dice rolls. It can take forever to get all their stats above average, just so they will want to play that character. Why play a wuss who gets killed by a papercut when you can have some one who can carry a decent gun and armor and not be slowed by it? And not die after a single combat round...

To make matters worse, I have a player who has difficulty rolling POORLY. I personally usually have difficulty rolling WELL. So let's say he and I roll 2 dice to get 6 stats. My average stats are highly likely to center around 5, whereas his are likely to center around 11. No kidding, he rolls that good, on a regular basis. He made a D&D character. He picked a few numbers out of the air. The GM said "Roll". So he rolls. He gets five 18's and a 17, and THE DICE AREN'T LOADED!!!! The GM says "Ok, just pick your stats" and he chooses some lower numbers. We finally decided enough with this crap and gave everyone 13,14,15,16,17,18 and let them put them where they want. That way everyone's got decent stats.

It may be Santa Clausing, but if I'm wanting to play a warrior, I'm NOT going to accept crappy stats (well, a couple in the unrelated skills). No one else I know is either. Call it powergaming all you want, but that's the way it is.

GURPS, otoh, lets you make your character as you want him to be. Playrs do tend to beef their stats a bit, but not so that they're all 18's; that costs too much! We even see stats LESS THAN 10, and that can only be a good thing. We choose disadvantages, opening up flaws that we're willing to role-play, in order to get more points to spend on advantages that may make us stronger in the area we want to focus on.

Each character is roughly equal in power, if built on the same number of points, and as he gains experience, it's easy to put those points into something worthwhile. If you have a gambling problem, you can't get rid of it until you do something that not only gets you the meta-game points to buy it off, but also an in-game reason for it.

And if you REALLY want, you can roll up your GURPS characters. There's a system for it, and I think it's in the main rule book. If not there, it's in Compendium 1.

I get a greater satisfaction out of playing a character I WANT to play, rather than one that was FORCED on me by my crappy luck. I also feel better knowing that the dice-magician isn't going to necessarily have it easy, because his character is as powerful as mine; maybe mine is more powerful if I chose my strengths and weaknesses carefully and he chose his haphazardly.

The biggest problem is that it takes a while to decide what you want. Traveller has the advantage of pushing you into something; few decisions are necessary, and it goes quicker. But if I'd wanted to have a crippled leg, I would have generated a character with one. It's beyond dumb to have to start over from scratch when your character dies or gets severely injured BEFORE YOU EVEN PLAY.

I'm not begrudging you your preference, but I do want you to be aware that you might be missing out on something. (I've generated several MT characters, and didn't hate it too much. I had no problem fudging a die roll that was completely lame, tho. Dying is stupid. But upon seeing GURPS, I knew immediately I'd been gyped all my gaming life.) So if you haven't given it a try, do so.

Getting "personally attached" to a character isn't as bad as all that; it does tend to keep you from sending him into pointless barroom brawls, or acting too much out of character; he IS an extension of you. He IS a tool you made, and you should not want to see him destroyed out of hand. Any good story needs characters you can identify with and root for.

 

[TheDS]

I have seen - WAAAAY too often - people unhappy with those dice rolls. It can take forever to get all their stats above average, just so they will want to play that character. Why play a wuss who gets killed by a papercut when you can have some one who can carry a decent gun and armor and not be slowed by it? And not die after a single combat round...

To make matters worse, I have a player who has difficulty rolling POORLY. I personally usually have difficulty rolling WELL. So let's say he and I roll 2 dice to get 6 stats. My average stats are highly likely to center around 5, whereas his are likely to center around 11. No kidding, he rolls that good, on a regular basis. He made a D&D character. He picked a few numbers out of the air. The GM said "Roll". So he rolls. He gets five 18's and a 17, and THE DICE AREN'T LOADED!!!! The GM says "Ok, just pick your stats" and he chooses some lower numbers. We finally decided enough with this crap and gave everyone 13,14,15,16,17,18 and let them put them where they want. That way everyone's got decent stats.

It may be Santa Clausing, but if I'm wanting to play a warrior, I'm NOT going to accept crappy stats (well, a couple in the unrelated skills). No one else I know is either. Call it powergaming all you want, but that's the way it is.

GURPS, otoh, lets you make your character as you want him to be. Playrs do tend to beef their stats a bit, but not so that they're all 18's; that costs too much! We even see stats LESS THAN 10, and that can only be a good thing. We choose disadvantages, opening up flaws that we're willing to role-play, in order to get more points to spend on advantages that may make us stronger in the area we want to focus on.

Each character is roughly equal in power, if built on the same number of points, and as he gains experience, it's easy to put those points into something worthwhile. If you have a gambling problem, you can't get rid of it until you do something that not only gets you the meta-game points to buy it off, but also an in-game reason for it.

And if you REALLY want, you can roll up your GURPS characters. There's a system for it, and I think it's in the main rule book. If not there, it's in Compendium 1.

I get a greater satisfaction out of playing a character I WANT to play, rather than one that was FORCED on me by my crappy luck. I also feel better knowing that the dice-magician isn't going to necessarily have it easy, because his character is as powerful as mine; maybe mine is more powerful if I chose my strengths and weaknesses carefully and he chose his haphazardly.

The biggest problem is that it takes a while to decide what you want. Traveller has the advantage of pushing you into something; few decisions are necessary, and it goes quicker. But if I'd wanted to have a crippled leg, I would have generated a character with one. It's beyond dumb to have to start over from scratch when your character dies or gets severely injured BEFORE YOU EVEN PLAY.

I'm not begrudging you your preference, but I do want you to be aware that you might be missing out on something. (I've generated several MT characters, and didn't hate it too much. I had no problem fudging a die roll that was completely lame, tho. Dying is stupid. But upon seeing GURPS, I knew immediately I'd been gyped all my gaming life.) So if you haven't given it a try, do so.

Getting "personally attached" to a character isn't as bad as all that; it does tend to keep you from sending him into pointless barroom brawls, or acting too much out of character; he IS an extension of you. He IS a tool you made, and you should not want to see him destroyed out of hand. Any good story needs characters you can identify with and root for.

 

[robject]

A. I've always liked Traveller's chargen rules, for the simple reason that I don't try to over-analyze his or her creation. I make decisions for the character and let the dice tell me how my risks fell out... in other words, it's a mini-game within the game.

B. On the other hand, when I'm building NPCs I tend to pick stats and a few "primary" skills without regard for any particular generation system.

C. But on the gripping hand, as a referee I must dictate the types and experience range of characters my players use. They'll roll a character up, but there has to be an editing phase where we bring everyone (1) up to par, and (2) a good interimx of skills to bring to bear in the campaign.

(A) is Classic Traveller. (B) is any RPG at all. (C) is more involved, since it's campaign-dependent rather than RPG-dependent. That's where point-based systems are useful. Also, the T5 draft has made this easier for the Classic-type games with "Quick Character Generation" for its listed careers. And finally, a point-based chargen system is possible with both T4 and T5, since skill levels roughly equals character age (or age - 18 if you prefer).

 

[robject]

A. I've always liked Traveller's chargen rules, for the simple reason that I don't try to over-analyze his or her creation. I make decisions for the character and let the dice tell me how my risks fell out... in other words, it's a mini-game within the game.

B. On the other hand, when I'm building NPCs I tend to pick stats and a few "primary" skills without regard for any particular generation system.

C. But on the gripping hand, as a referee I must dictate the types and experience range of characters my players use. They'll roll a character up, but there has to be an editing phase where we bring everyone (1) up to par, and (2) a good interimx of skills to bring to bear in the campaign.

(A) is Classic Traveller. (B) is any RPG at all. (C) is more involved, since it's campaign-dependent rather than RPG-dependent. That's where point-based systems are useful. Also, the T5 draft has made this easier for the Classic-type games with "Quick Character Generation" for its listed careers. And finally, a point-based chargen system is possible with both T4 and T5, since skill levels roughly equals character age (or age - 18 if you prefer).

 

[mtgeiger]

I enjoy working with and playing Traveller 4th Edition. There were some discrepancies within the system since it is a rewritten version of The Traveller Book, published in 1982. It just was not properly tested by players and thoroughly thought through. The concept was exellent since it look place in the birth of the 3rd Imperium. Traveller 5th Edition, when it is published, shall be an enhanced edition of Traveller 4th Edition with a new Milieu, Milieu 200. T4 was hurried to be published and was not a serious project for Marc Miller.

 

[mtgeiger]

I enjoy working with and playing Traveller 4th Edition. There were some discrepancies within the system since it is a rewritten version of The Traveller Book, published in 1982. It just was not properly tested by players and thoroughly thought through. The concept was exellent since it look place in the birth of the 3rd Imperium. Traveller 5th Edition, when it is published, shall be an enhanced edition of Traveller 4th Edition with a new Milieu, Milieu 200. T4 was hurried to be published and was not a serious project for Marc Miller.

 

[hot dog vendor]

T4 is a good system it has faults but it is workable my group loves it

 

[hot dog vendor]

T4 is a good system it has faults but it is workable my group loves it

 

[hirch duckfinder]

one of the big problems for me with T4 was that the first incuded adventure was basically a beauracracy-em-up . ok for die hards but never gonna exite new converts .

 

[hirch duckfinder]

one of the big problems for me with T4 was that the first incuded adventure was basically a beauracracy-em-up . ok for die hards but never gonna exite new converts .

 

[anders lager]

LOONG reply!

Hi everyone!

I haven't played Traveller (in any incarnation) for a loong time (15 years+), but one day I stumbled over Far Future's homepage, was overwhelmed with nostalgia and bought the MT and CT CD:s. Now, PDF's doesn't lend themselves well for real role-playing (can't see myself passing my laptop around the table), so I started collecting the real stuff again (having sold or swapped most of my Trav stuff eons ago). As it were I happened to stumble upon a guy selling his entire T4 collection for peanuts. I bought it and I really like the format of the books, the rules (allright, not all of it). I have also gotten hold of CT (the traveller book), the MT box and the TNE book on eBay. Studying and comparing these I find the T4 really is a good product, although you have to have some of the old materials to fully understand the Trav universe. The only disappointment of sorts was the Milieu: 0 setting, which I find way too "vanilla" for my taste (I always liked the rebellion/hard times/new era-milieu). Currently I'm working on a campaign using the TNE: 1048 setting, using T4 rules, adding things from CT/MT/TNE as I see fit. I know a lot of people have an issue with T4 art - to be honest I always thought that GDW put awful art in their products (the only exception being Twilight: 2000 1st ed).
I think that one of Traveller's big problems is that it's only old time gamers like myself that take an interest in the game. And old-timers already have all the old supplements and stuff - that way T4 doesn't add a lot of novelty to them. I see a clear paralell in another of my fav games: RuneQuest. Same thing happened there when new editions came out - the new publisher recycled and re-packaged old stuff, nothing new came out, so the old fan-base was disappointed and new players didn't catch on cause the game was too complicated, too much material on the market and so on. I think that the GURPS and T20 versions would be nice attractors of new players, although for me personally they don't work. T20 - because I left level-based RPG:s a la D&D a loong time ago and GURPS because it's...well bland. I used to play GURPS, converted a lot of games to GURPS, but suddenly all games felt the same. There is a certain feel to each RPG rules system - that's part of the charm. So...use whatever rules set you like, twist the rules you feel doesn't fit your ideas and have fun! After all, that's what it's all about!

 

[anders lager]

LOONG reply!

Hi everyone!

I haven't played Traveller (in any incarnation) for a loong time (15 years+), but one day I stumbled over Far Future's homepage, was overwhelmed with nostalgia and bought the MT and CT CD:s. Now, PDF's doesn't lend themselves well for real role-playing (can't see myself passing my laptop around the table), so I started collecting the real stuff again (having sold or swapped most of my Trav stuff eons ago). As it were I happened to stumble upon a guy selling his entire T4 collection for peanuts. I bought it and I really like the format of the books, the rules (allright, not all of it). I have also gotten hold of CT (the traveller book), the MT box and the TNE book on eBay. Studying and comparing these I find the T4 really is a good product, although you have to have some of the old materials to fully understand the Trav universe. The only disappointment of sorts was the Milieu: 0 setting, which I find way too "vanilla" for my taste (I always liked the rebellion/hard times/new era-milieu). Currently I'm working on a campaign using the TNE: 1048 setting, using T4 rules, adding things from CT/MT/TNE as I see fit. I know a lot of people have an issue with T4 art - to be honest I always thought that GDW put awful art in their products (the only exception being Twilight: 2000 1st ed).
I think that one of Traveller's big problems is that it's only old time gamers like myself that take an interest in the game. And old-timers already have all the old supplements and stuff - that way T4 doesn't add a lot of novelty to them. I see a clear paralell in another of my fav games: RuneQuest. Same thing happened there when new editions came out - the new publisher recycled and re-packaged old stuff, nothing new came out, so the old fan-base was disappointed and new players didn't catch on cause the game was too complicated, too much material on the market and so on. I think that the GURPS and T20 versions would be nice attractors of new players, although for me personally they don't work. T20 - because I left level-based RPG:s a la D&D a loong time ago and GURPS because it's...well bland. I used to play GURPS, converted a lot of games to GURPS, but suddenly all games felt the same. There is a certain feel to each RPG rules system - that's part of the charm. So...use whatever rules set you like, twist the rules you feel doesn't fit your ideas and have fun! After all, that's what it's all about!

 

[kafka47]

Doctor, Who? Might I ask. Sorry could not resist the pun. Indeed gaming is all about adding new things and subtracting others.

What I think that most people find ordorious about T4 was its complete disregard for any semblence of Traveller that when on before its arrival (until M:0 when the fans got involved). Many things could be incorporated but some thing were just plain alien like sentient robots at TL12 or minor human races that resembled Neanderthals and lived in hollowed out asteroids.

T4 seemed like Marc Anthony funeral speech had come alive under the banner of T4 yet bury Traveller it did for a generation (in gaming terms the 8-12yrs who saw come out). Imperium Games also had the worse customer service record, as it was run people who did not understand the power of the Internet. So, many people blame T4 for the death of Traveller. I don't believe that is true, rather it is the fans who refused to keep the flame alive by ignoring what was being done officially and keep on playing.

As many people in the Traveller fandom (including myself for long periods of time, go without playing Traveller) and focus upon collecting or rules nitpicking when the essence of the game is to have fun, as you said that is what it is all about.

 

[kafka47]

Doctor, Who? Might I ask. Sorry could not resist the pun. Indeed gaming is all about adding new things and subtracting others.

What I think that most people find ordorious about T4 was its complete disregard for any semblence of Traveller that when on before its arrival (until M:0 when the fans got involved). Many things could be incorporated but some thing were just plain alien like sentient robots at TL12 or minor human races that resembled Neanderthals and lived in hollowed out asteroids.

T4 seemed like Marc Anthony funeral speech had come alive under the banner of T4 yet bury Traveller it did for a generation (in gaming terms the 8-12yrs who saw come out). Imperium Games also had the worse customer service record, as it was run people who did not understand the power of the Internet. So, many people blame T4 for the death of Traveller. I don't believe that is true, rather it is the fans who refused to keep the flame alive by ignoring what was being done officially and keep on playing.

As many people in the Traveller fandom (including myself for long periods of time, go without playing Traveller) and focus upon collecting or rules nitpicking when the essence of the game is to have fun, as you said that is what it is all about.

 

[Malenfant]

Imperium Games also had the worse customer service record, as it was run people who did not understand the power of the Internet.

What exactly was so bad about it? I've heard bad things about them but no actual details.

 

[Malenfant]

Imperium Games also had the worse customer service record, as it was run people who did not understand the power of the Internet.

What exactly was so bad about it? I've heard bad things about them but no actual details.