Populations that include transients

[rancke]

Except that we have other examples, as well as game rules, that establishes contradictory precedences. ...".

I am not as well-versed in canon as you, and my stock of Traveller materials has some unfortunate gaps. Might I request some of those examples?

Mithril, Spinward Marches 1628, was originally evidence for the view that transients are not counted in the population. In SM it had a UWP of E568000-0 and in Mission on Mithril it said:

"Mithril is listed in the directories as having no population, government, or law level; this is not entirely true. [...] a rudimentary starport [...] is maintained, along with a port warden responsible for establishing sovreignty. The normal population for the world is thus closer to two or three;" [p. 1]​

But when The Spinward Marches Campaign came out and the population multiplier was added to the UWPs, Mithril had a modifier of 3. In other words, the port warden and his staff were counted.

(Mind you, the last sentence could be interpreted to mean that the population figure ought to have included the two or three inhabitants. I won't insist on that interpretation, though.)

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"MagnetoDynamics is responsible for the population of Fulacin; local inhabitants are all employees of the corporation, dependents, or local contractors." [Twilight's Peak, p. 15]

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"The entire Depot system is devoted to an Imperial naval depot, and its population consists entirely of naval personnel." [The Solomani Rim, p. 20]​

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457-973 (Spinward Marches 3019) has an UWP of X372215-4/5. According to SMC,

"457-973 is interdicted by the [IISS] to protect a local developing race from exploitation; a small human population studies the race from a remote underground installation."​

Regency Sourcebook tells us that in 1201 the locals are being contacted because they had reached TL5 and that the UWP is now X372776-5/5, which means that in 1111 only the transient population of 500 Imperial scientists is being counted (though the tech level of 4 must be that of the locals and not of the visitors from the stars. ).

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Generally, most low populations will be composed entirely of transients because low populations are not viable in the long run, so most low-population worlds will be outposts: mining outposts, trade stations, research stations. Exceptions would be if the population is the vanguard of a new colony or the last remains of a dying population.

Look through Behind the Claw and you will find some low-population worlds that have permanent settlers, but a lot of them have inhabitants that are transients. The first few pages provide these examples:

"0807 Plaven [...] Population: 9,486. Government: None. [...] The only human population is a small group of scientists from the University of Cronor." [BtC:41]

"0810 Frond [...] Population: 1,000. Government: None. [...] A small group of belters has set up a base in orbit, however, from which they risk everything to mine the metals." BtC:41-42]

"0111 Atson [...] Population: 900,000. Government: Bureaucracy (starport authority). [...] The entire population works in the starport..." [BtC:42]

"0115 Xhosa [...] Population: 20. Government: Athenian-style democracy. [...] Populated by a research team from the Querion xenobiology department..." [BtC:42]

"0412 Sansibar [...] Population: 7,000 (300 Droyne). Government: The Zhodani company Chtaklpets. [...] The world of Sansibar was a normal company colony..."[BtC:43]​

There are far too many other examples to quote them all. Rim of Fire likewise has a number of populations explained as outpost personnel.

(Please note that I do not endorse all the writeups in BtC or even all the ones I referred to above; I merely quote them as evidence of explanations for populations that include transients (I particularily wash my hands of the world with 900,000 starport employees.)).


Hans

 

[Vladika]

"The entire Depot system is devoted to an Imperial naval depot, and its population consists entirely of naval personnel." [The Solomani Rim, p. 20]​

This would make sense from a security point of view. I would certainly expect dependents though. Without "accompanying tour of duty" the constant transferring in and out for short term personnel would be expensive, inefficient and a security risk of it's own.

Generally, most low populations will be composed entirely of transients because low populations are not viable in the long run, so most low-population worlds will be outposts: mining outposts, trade stations, research stations. Exceptions would be if the population is the vanguard of a new colony or the last remains of a dying population.

The "exceptions" is especially insightful.

"0111 Atson [...] Population: 900,000. Government: Bureaucracy (starport authority). [...] The entire population works in the starport..." [BtC:42]

(Please note that I do not endorse all the writeups in BtC or even all the ones I referred to above; I merely quote then as evidence of explanations for populations that include transients (I particularily wash my hands of the world with 900,000 starport employees.)).

Hans

I have to agree totally with this. What starport could possibly need almost a million employees? For a world with NO other population... So, it's a "no trade world" (except for supply TO the starport with no cargo out...):nonono:

This is a perfect example of the fallacy of explaining a poor roll-up with an even poorer explanation.

I'd love to hear the rational behind this one! :file_21:

(Maybe more thinking and less drinking):devil:

 

[atpollard]

I have to agree totally with this. What starport could possibly need almost a million employees? For a world with NO other population... So, it's a "no trade world" (except for supply TO the starport with no cargo out...):nonono:

This is a perfect example of the fallacy of explaining a poor roll-up with an even poorer explanation.

I'd love to hear the rational behind this one! :file_21:

Hey, it takes a lot of riveters to build a steampunk starship by hand ... and don't even get me started on the number of people needed to inspect each rivet.

 

[McPerth]

I'm afraid that, as usual, I disagree with your conclusions (while not about the data). It's true that in some worlds, as depots, the transients are counted (I guess when they are long time transients), but even then I guess there's some non transient population, even if only as support (as Vladika says)

Mithril, Spinward Marches 1628, was originally evidence for the view that transients are not counted in the population. In SM it had a UWP of E568000-0 and in Mission on Mithril it said:

"Mithril is listed in the directories as having no population, government, or law level; this is not entirely true. [...] a rudimentary starport [...] is maintained, along with a port warden responsible for establishing sovreignty. The normal population for the world is thus closer to two or three;" [p. 1]

But when The Spinward Marches Campaign came out and the population multiplier was added to the UWPs, Mithril had a modifier of 3. In other words, the port warden and his staff were counted.

(Mind you, the last sentence could be interpreted to mean that the population figure ought to have included the two or three inhabitants. I won't insist on that interpretation, though.)

Curiously enough, I interpreted the underlined part (underlining is mine) in another sense, meaning that the normal population digit is closer to 2-3, as I don't see a 3 person staff enough even for an E rated starport. This way, the transient people in the world would be among 10 and 999, more logical IMHO, and the transient population would not be counted towards the 0 pop digit.

I agree your interpretation may also be true, though...

"MagnetoDynamics is responsible for the population of Fulacin; local inhabitants are all employees of the corporation, dependents, or local contractors." [Twilight's Peak, p. 15]

The existence of local contractors mean, to my understanding, local (non transient) population. How many local contractors may there be in less tan 1000 inhabitants is anyone's guess...

OTOH, I don't believe an A rated starport can be maintained with less tan 1000 people, so I guess the transients are more tan this population digit of 2 at most moments.

Of course, there are other examples of worlds with an A rated starport, IN base and pop 2- that I understand as not counting the naval personnel (and so the transient population) in the pop digit, unless you think an IN base can be maintained with such small a staff (personally, I have serious doubts about it).

"0111 Atson [...] Population: 900,000. Government: Bureaucracy (starport authority). [...] The entire population works in the starport..." [BtC:42]

The fact that the entire population work in the starport /while leaving me as stonished and incredulous as to you, if I understand well your comments) doesn't mean they are ransients, as they may well be people living enterily in the startown, being no other inhabited place in the planet.

Remember that the worlds work in the starport does not mean they are directly involved in star traffic. The owners of the restaurants or hotels or the teachers for children in the startown may be seen as working in the starport, as those supporters on a military base are now told as working in the base, while not involved in military.

In most other cases you quote (most of them I don't know enough as to discuss them), the population in them, while not native and probably won't live their full lives in the planet, are on such long tours of duty as for the world transient not IMHO be fully aplicable to them (while neither is the world native population, of course, being some in between). where is the border is quite hard to define, though.

 

[Vladika]

Hey, it takes a lot of riveters to build a steampunk starship by hand ...

I bow to your thoughts on this.

and don't even get me started on the number of people needed to inspect each rivet.

Bureaucracy at it's finest?

 

[BytePro]

My dad worked on spacecraft...

For certain, er, sub-orbital vehicles, every single screw was installed with 2 people counting turns while a third watched and verified - and a fourth post reviewed. [No idea how many people it took to screw in light bulbs!]

Given the size of Traveller starships and a starport supporting all the infrastructure (computer parts to hull), such could quite believably amount to a whole lotta folks for high output shipyards...

 

[rancke]

I'm afraid that, as usual, I disagree with your conclusions (while not about the data). It's true that in some worlds, as depots, the transients are counted (I guess when they are long time transients), but even then I guess there's some non transient population, even if only as support (as Vladika says)

Not the point at all. The point was that some transients quite evidently does count towards the population score. And in a number of cases all the inhabitants are quite clearly transients.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

...some transients quite evidently does count towards the population score.

I think Hans is correct here.

The following it NOT intended as a political statement in any way, simply an example of live as I live it in the USA.

In our various States transients are counted as residents of the state they currently live in, though their intent is to not remain permanently. The military is a prime example. They are stationed here and there and move way to often but are citizens of the state they reside in for voting, though they are exempt from certain taxes. Students are another category. They are considered residents for voting, though not necessarily for tuition...It's somewhat arbitrary, and varies State by State.

Every State has differing requirements which adds to confusion. Both as to length of time to establish residency and differing times beyond that to access services.

And in a number of cases all the inhabitants are quite clearly transients.
Hans

Exactly. Naval (or any military personnel), scouts, scientists, prospectors, treasure hunters, etc. (this is nowhere near all inclusive) Some may very well be long term, or even die there, but their intent was never to establish a permanent domicile.

 

[Higgipedia]

Also, you could look at military or college towns as examples of transient populations. State College, PA is a town of 40k supporting a University of 50k.

Would a town like Kileen, TX (130k) have gotten that large if it weren't for the 50k+ that Fort Hood has?

 

[BlackBat242]

The fact that the entire population work in the starport /while leaving me as stonished and incredulous as to you, if I understand well your comments) doesn't mean they are ransients, as they may well be people living enterily in the startown, being no other inhabited place in the planet.

Remember that the worlds work in the starport does not mean they are directly involved in star traffic. The owners of the restaurants or hotels or the teachers for children in the startown may be seen as working in the starport, as those supporters on a military base are now told as working in the base, while not involved in military.

I see a Traveller version of the Krupp companies of the late 1800s and early 1900s.

Krupp was far more than the steel works... the steel was refined from ore mined by Krupp employees in Krupp-owned mines in furnaces fueled by coal mined by Krupp employees in Krupp-owned mines.

The Krupp employees in both the mines and the steel works lived in Krupp-owned communities.

In these "company towns" they resided in Krupp-owned houses (assigned by family size) that had been built by carpenters employed by Krupp.

Their wives shopped in Krupp-owned stores staffed by Krupp-employed butchers, green-grocers, and clerks, using purchase accounts in the Krupp-owned bank that the workers' pay was deposited in.
Their children went to Krupp-built & owned schools staffed by Krupp-employed teachers.
They and their families (including dependent parents and so on) received medical care at Krupp-owned clinics and hospitals staffed by Krupp-employed doctors and nurses.
When they retired they were moved into the Krupp-owned retirement villas, staffed by Krupp-employed personnel.


All of these people received their pay directly from Krupp, and were full employees of Krupp.



I can easily see a mega-corp owning the entire starport and supporting community, and directly employing everyone in them.

 

[rancke]

Krupp was far more than the steel works... the steel was refined from ore mined by Krupp employees in Krupp-owned mines in furnaces fueled by coal mined by Krupp employees in Krupp-owned mines.

Were those mines and furnaces located in the harbor district?

The Krupp employees in both the mines and the steel works lived in Krupp-owned communities.

Located in the harbor district?

In these "company towns" they resided in Krupp-owned houses (assigned by family size) that had been built by carpenters employed by Krupp.

And built in the harbor district?

Their wives shopped in Krupp-owned stores staffed by Krupp-employed butchers, green-grocers, and clerks, using purchase accounts in the Krupp-owned bank that the workers' pay was deposited in.
Their children went to Krupp-built & owned schools staffed by Krupp-employed teachers.

All located in the harbor district?

They and their families (including dependent parents and so on) received medical care at Krupp-owned clinics and hospitals staffed by Krupp-employed doctors and nurses.

All working in the harbor district?

When they retired they were moved into the Krupp-owned retirement villas, staffed by Krupp-employed personnel.

Located in the harbor district?

All of these people received their pay directly from Krupp, and were full employees of Krupp.

The whole setup run by a harbormaster appointed by the Kaiser?

I can easily see a mega-corp owning the entire starport and supporting community, and directly employing everyone in them.

I must confess that I have some problems seeing it.


Hans

 

[BytePro]

Seem to be harboring a fixation problem there, Ranke... :rofl:

Geographical location-wise, an airport is a much better analogy than a harbor - surely you don't have an imagination difficulty seeing a company owned airport included in a mining town located adjacent to natural resources?

In the real world, historically, harbor communities and company controlled resources with transient populations for island mining (ala guano and phosphate) and fishing come to mind, btw.

IMTU, megacorps can own whole star systems.

 

[rancke]

Geographical location-wise, an airport is a much better analogy than a harbor - surely you don't have an imagination difficulty seeing a company owned airport included in a mining town located adjacent to natural resources?

Political location-wise an Imperial starport is inside a geographically limited area surrounded by an extrality line. I have extreme difficulty seeing a company-owned Imperial starport; likewise a company world run by an Imperial bureaucrat. Nor would a company restrict their resource extraction activities to the limit of the extrality line.

IMTU, megacorps can own whole star systems.

That they can IMTU too. But they can't own the Imperial starport and if they do own a world they don't allow an outsider to run it.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

I see a Traveller version of the Krupp companies of the late 1800s and early 1900s.

Krupp was far more than the steel works... the steel was refined from ore mined by Krupp employees in Krupp-owned mines in furnaces fueled by coal mined by Krupp employees in Krupp-owned mines.

(...)

(rest of the quoted post deleted not to lengthen this post)

And were those people seen as transients?

 

[BytePro]

Political location-wise an Imperial starport is inside a geographically limited area surrounded by an extrality line. I have extreme difficulty seeing a company-owned Imperial starport; likewise a company world run by an Imperial bureaucrat. Nor would a company restrict their resource extraction activities to the limit of the extrality line.

The starport has extrality, i.e. its considered part of the Imperium with respect to laws by agreement. Why does this preclude the entire starport, sans land being owned and operated by a megacorp by agreement with the Government (or under contract)?

There is historical precedence for that sort of thing in the RW.

Extrality line is not the same for every world - again, its a treaty thing. The Imperium negotiating a treaty with the starport and Imperium extrality region optimally located to exploit resources seems rationale. So the extrality area covers the resources to be extracted - or the resources are mostly brought in (asteroids, company ships). <shrug>

 

[rancke]

The starport has extrality, i.e. its considered part of the Imperium with respect to laws by agreement. Why does this preclude the entire starport, sans land being owned and operated by a megacorp by agreement with the Government (or under contract)?

Because the Imperial government is not the same thing as Imperial corporations. The goverment runs starports; corporations conduct business.

There is historical precedence for that sort of thing in the RW.

I doubt it.

Extrality line is not the same for every world - again, its a treaty thing. The Imperium negotiating a treaty with the starport and Imperium extrality region optimally located to exploit resources seems rationale. So the extrality area covers the resources to be extracted - or the resources are mostly brought in (asteroids, company ships). <shrug>

Never mind. I just indicated that I didn't care to endorse the notion of a world whose sole population was 900,000 people who all worked in the starport. If you don't have any problems with it, go right ahead with my blessing[*]? I'm certainly not going to report you to the Plausibility Police.

[*] Note that this should not be taken to mean that I think you need my blessing.​

Hans

 

[silversides207]

If three large cruise ships are in port in the Cayman Islands, the population of the islands can increase by between 10% to 20% for that period of time. As cruise ships are there just about every day, how are the cruise passengers counted?

 

[Vladika]

If three large cruise ships are in port in the Cayman Islands, the population of the islands can increase by between 10% to 20% for that period of time. As cruise ships are there just about every day, how are the cruise passengers counted?

Transients...

 

[atpollard]

Never mind. I just indicated that I didn't care to endorse the notion of a world whose sole population was 900,000 people who all worked in the starport.
Hans

Considering some of the worlds, I would expect the entire population to be found loitering in the starport trying to get off that hellhole and 1 parsec over to the world where you can breathe the air.

 

[silversides207]

Transients...

There are typically two or three cruise ships in port every day of the week. What do you call a constant level of transients?