Populations that include transients

[Fritz_Brown]

it would be like the US treating the fishing fleet on the Dogger Bank as a sovereign population.

The US treats the peoples of Tuvalu and Nauru as sovereign populations, so why not? There could be all sorts of historical, political or economic reasons why. Undoubtedly some nefarious plot is behind it all, which the players can become embroiled in.

There's a big difference between a fishing fleet (not treated as sovereign) and the people of a nation. That was Hans' distinction. Unless there was some sort of governance in evidence, why would the Imperium even count a few dozen miners out in the belt?

They set up a government or a starport... maybe. They get to be enough people that they have an impact... more likely.

*facepalm* I can't believe I've gotten involved back in this thread...... :nonono:

 

[simonh]

There's a big difference between a fishing fleet (not treated as sovereign) and the people of a nation. That was Hans' distinction. Unless there was some sort of governance in evidence, why would the Imperium even count a few dozen miners out in the belt?

Good question. Why do they? The fact is though that they do. It only remains to explain why, not whinge about how an answer hasn't been handed to us on a plate.

E.g. Suppose it wasn't always a small population of belters. Maybe once it was a thriving large community of very wealthy belters mining lucrative deposits. The Imperium entered into a treaty granting it extensive trade concessions in return for providing spaceport facilities. The strikes have dried up, most of the miners have left, but the treaty is still in operation and is part of a complex treaty obligations involving several other nearby worlds, so they can't just void it without knock-on consequences.

If only the Imperium could persuade the last few miners to leave, the treaty could be nullified. Enter the players, either to carry out a plot to drive off the miners, or to help the miners foil it.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Whipsnade]

There's a big difference between a fishing fleet (not treated as sovereign) and the people of a nation.

Oddly enough, history is replete with examples of seaborne and other migratory peoples being treated as "nations". I'll point you to the Hakka. There is also the example of European fishing and sealing fleets either electing or otherwise having "admirals" appointed who then apportioned fishing/hunting grounds, the division of labor, dealt with local peoples, and held judicial power including that of life and death.

*facepalm* I can't believe I've gotten involved back in this thread...... :nonono:

Same here. There are those who simply cannot look beyond their 21st Century liberal western democracy cultural blinders to employ the full spectrum of human political and cultural history to explain the OTU.

 

[rancke]

Same here. There are those who simply cannot look beyond their 21st Century liberal western democracy cultural blinders to employ the full spectrum of human political and cultural history to explain the OTU.

Actually, I'm assuming that the Imperium will NOT work like the enlightened liberal western democracies of 21st Century Earth and respect and defend the property rights of tiny governmentless planetary populations.


Hans

 

[simonh]

Actually, I'm assuming that the Imperium will NOT work like the enlightened liberal western democracies of 21st Century Earth and respect and defend the property rights of tiny governmentless planetary populations.

Unless they have, or had a reason to do so, even if temporarily. Inherently unstable situations are the bread and butter of adventure gaming.

Seriously, there are no interesting and adventuresome circumstancesyou can think of, under any conditions, where a situation like this could ever arise no matter how temporarily? Really?

The UWPs are a snapshot in time, not a prescription of how things have always been and always will be. Some times snapshots capture dynamic, unstable processes in mid-action.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Carlobrand]

...Seriously, there are no interesting and adventuresome circumstancesyou can think of, under any conditions, where a situation like this could ever arise no matter how temporarily? Really?

The UWPs are a snapshot in time, not a prescription of how things have always been and always will be. Some times snapshots capture dynamic, unstable processes in mid-action. ...

In the debate about whether or not to count transients, one issue deserves consideration: who is using the UWP, and for what purpose? Within the milieu, the UWP is issued to serve a purpose. Ergo, whatever rationale we develop for some oddity like Pixie should evolve from the idea that some official process is collecting and distributing this information in order to serve the needs of some body of information-users who need this information.

The UWP is used in part to determine trade. As Rancke points out, "the starport population would still contribute to the system's trade and traffic." Issuing an official UWP that says, "Ain't no one here but this little village," while there's a starport population to serve and make money from, is not serving the interests of those who'll be using that UWP information.

Any small population, irrespective of the port type, is of necessity a dynamic, unstable process in mid-action - a slight change in economic conditions could destroy the place or lead to a major population spike. The real puzzle - if we decide to accept the UWP as accurate and not invoke the "Oh, it's out of date / Oh, they made a mistake" card - is to come up with a workable rationale behind the Imperium telling users of the UWP information that in this case, there's almost no one here to trade with but there's this major port capable of building and repairing starships (a starport which, by rules, is limited in its construction capacity to the technology level of the world supporting it).

Here, we have the odd image of a high-tech starport and naval base on a world with too few people to produce the resources it needs to construct ships, much less to staff the port itself or provide the port with any reason for existing. Coming up with a rationale for putting an A-port there and giving it sufficient reason to exist while making the UWP an accurate reflection of the system's trade potential for UWP-users is challenging, to say the least

 

[simonh]

Here, we have the odd image of a high-tech starport and naval base on a world with too few people to produce the resources it needs to construct ships, much less to staff the port itself or provide the port with any reason for existing. Coming up with a rationale for putting an A-port there and giving it sufficient reason to exist while making the UWP an accurate reflection of the system's trade potential for UWP-users is challenging, to say the least

In theory yes, but you have to up the UWP population digit to 4 before you change any of it's trade codes so that's not really a problem. In any case, if you want to exclude the port staff from the trade economy, we could just assume they're served by an exclusive supply contract.

As for why the Imperium would build such a facility, if only we had good examples of governments building expensive white elephants in the real world.

For a real life example of exactly this sort of population records issue, consider the Wikipedia page on the Falklands. It completely discounts the 2,000+ permanent military personnel stationed there, roughly the same as the population of Port Stanley, (and occasionally much more during exercises) from the pop count.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Carlobrand]

In theory yes, but you have to up the UWP population digit to 4 before you change any of it's trade codes so that's not really a problem. In any case, if you want to exclude the port staff from the trade economy, we could just assume they're served by an exclusive supply contract.
...

For a real life example of exactly this sort of population records issue, consider the Wikipedia page on the Falklands. It completely discounts the 2,000+ permanent military personnel stationed there, roughly the same as the population of Port Stanley, (and occasionally much more during exercises) from the pop count.

I'm not aware that major businesses are relying on Wikipedia as an official source of demographic information from which to make business decisions. You do make a very good point about the exclusive supply contract, though I don't know that it means a free trader wouldn't like to know how many bodies are manning the starport since even an exclusive contract leaves room for the occasional unexpected that might need to be imported or exported on the quick - which is the niche that free traders tend to occupy. Also doesn't resolve the question of what the port is doing there and why it's restricted to the local tech level since it's having to import its parts and supplies via that exclusive contract.

 

[HG_B]

Same here. There are those who simply cannot look beyond their 21st Century liberal western democracy cultural blinders to employ the full spectrum of human political and cultural history to explain the OTU.

Umm, the 3I is a feudalistic entity that uses force to get its way. Maybe you mean people who can't look back before the 20th century...

 

[Carlobrand]

Umm, the 3I is a feudalistic entity that uses force to get its way. Maybe you mean people who can't look back before the 20th century...

Always struck me as being very like Pournelle's far future universe.

 

[HG_B]

Always struck me as being very like Pournelle's far future universe.

A little. I asked Jerry about that one time. He said it was easier to write that way.

 

[simonh]

Also doesn't resolve the question of what the port is doing there and why it's restricted to the local tech level since it's having to import its parts and supplies via that exclusive contract.

Certainly, but again coming up with the justification is our job.

These questions are on my mind because eventually I want to write my own world generation system for a setting I'm developing. I need to solve some of the same problems as the Traveller system, but my needs are different enough that I really need a new system.

I looked at Stars Without Number to see if I could crib ideas from there, but was amused to find that it doesn't have any modifiers on world statistic rolls at all, they're all completely independent rolls. An excellent solution IMHO that has much to recommend it, but sadly doesn't suit my needs either.

Simon Hibbs

 

[HG_B]

I'm not aware that major businesses are relying on Wikipedia as an official source of demographic information from which to make business decisions.

Good point. I always went to gov census data in the relevant country. Wiki? Not on your life.

 

[simonh]

Good point. I always went to gov census data in the relevant country. Wiki? Not on your life.

In which case, you'd expect the CIA World Fact Book to be right on the case.

Falkland Islands (Look under 'People and society')

Oops.

For extra fun and surprises, check out the contents of the 'Military' entry.

The Economy section does vaguely mention there's a military presence, but gives no figures so in this regard Wikipedia is actually more informative and up to date. The CIA also mentions there were about 69,000 visitors in 2009 yet there's no indication whatever of the actual typical transient population.

Simon Hibbs

 

[HG_B]

In which case, you'd expect the CIA World Fact Book to be right on the case.

Nope. Reread what I wrote. The CIA isn't part of the Falkland Islands gov. CIA is part of the U.S. gov...

 

[savage]

Wiki

I know that in Florida, Gov't workers we're doing Wikipedia update. Specifically, anything that had to do with the government.

 

[simonh]

Nope. Reread what I wrote. The CIA isn't part of the Falkland Islands gov. CIA is part of the U.S. gov...

I don't think the government of Pixie is responsible for cataloging its UWP, which would be the equivalent case, and if it was why would it include an orbital imperial facility in its population census stats?

Anyway whether you trust any governments figures is an arbitrary judgement. Would you trust the census stats coming from the government of North Korea? IMHO even though I'm a Brit I don't see any reason to distrust the CIA world fact book, it seems to me to be as reliable as any sorce if its kind.

Simon Hibbs

 

[HG_B]

I don't think the government of Pixie is responsible for cataloging its UWP,

I never said that it would be.