Populations that include transients

[Sir Brad]

There are typically two or three cruise ships in port every day of the week. What do you call a constant level of transients?

A Tourist Industry.

In Northern Western Australia there are clusters of towns each as big as 10's of Thousands, but no one lives there officially. the Mining Companies own the lot from the Mine, Port or Rail Nexus down to the Cafe, Mackers, Salmonella Wagons & "Java on the Run" vans franchise and they fly everyone in and out normally from about once a week up to about once every six weeks, but some folks relocate to the towns for up to three years (the max most companies will allow). according to the ABS they have 100% Transient population.

 

[Vladika]

There are typically two or three cruise ships in port every day of the week. What do you call a constant level of transients?

I don't think it matters if 1000 people are there for a day and leaving (transients) or if 100 times that number arrive for a day and leave. They are all still transients.

Take JFK, LAX, or O'Hare airports. Does it matter how many people come and go in a day? They are still transients.

If 10 million people march from the east to the west coast, passing through St Louis, as far as St' Louis is concerned, they are transients.

 

[McPerth]

I don't think it matters if 1000 people are there for a day and leaving (transients) or if 100 times that number arrive for a day and leave. They are all still transients.

Take JFK, LAX, or O'Hare airports. Does it matter how many people come and go in a day? They are still transients.

If 10 million people march from the east to the west coast, passing through St Louis, as far as St' Louis is concerned, they are transients.

Agreed, but that's just what we are discussing in this thread, if those transients are counted against the population or they aren't.

I must agree with Hans that for some things, transients must be counted. We have in the coast some cities whose population grow tenfold by summer, due to turistic industry (think on Costa Brava, Costa del Sol, etc...). Of course, you don't need to count them on the population census, but you must count on them when assigning services.

If the hospital for this zone has capacity just for the permanent population, it will collapse in summer, so it has to have the capacity for all the people that you think will be there, be they transients or permanent population. Same happens with pólice, shops, etc... That's not true for schools, as those transient children are on holydays., just to give you an example.

I guess one of the things we should agree is what is considered transient, as I guess most of us will agree it's not the same if we talk about people spending a holydays week there than people there for a 4 year tour of duty.

And even in the former case, if there is a similar number of people on holydays all year arround, this population must be counted for some services, as specified above. So, another point we must agree, IMHO, is what does the pop digit represent and what is used for in Imperium when IISS assign it. If it represents censed people, to give an idea of population for census matters, or if it means average people there to provide services (and in game terms to give an idea of it).

To give some examples: when used to recruit mercenaries, as in CT:LBB4 or to determine the TL (so assuming Universities and industry in the world) or to determine if the world is non industrial (due to lack of population base), it seems to be thinking more about the permanent population, when used to determine the number of passeners or the comercial importance of the system, I guess such "permanent transient" populaions should count.

 

[silversides207]

By that reasoning then, all military bases, regardless of size, have a population of ZERO, as all are transients, and therefore, have no effect whatsoever on a world's population figure.

So, Mithril will have a population of ZERO, as all of the Sword Worlders there are transient.

 

[McPerth]

By that reasoning then, all military bases, regardless of size, have a population of ZERO, as all are transients, and therefore, have no effect whatsoever on a world's population figure.

So, Mithril will have a population of ZERO, as all of the Sword Worlders there are transient.

That's why I say we should agree about what does transient mean for us.

PS: seeing the hours of both our posts, I guess you havn't read mine befrore posting yours, but I guess they reinforce each other.

 

[BytePro]

Because the Imperial government is not the same thing as Imperial corporations.

Which is obvious and why nobody else made that statement.

The goverment runs starports; corporations conduct business.

It is not at all unusual for governments to pass off authority to run government operations to business. Been happening since ancient times (study ancient Rome, and China for example) and still very much happening today.

A RW perspective of diversity of government and private enterprise and of the lack of any hard and fast definition of the term 'population' quite supports the plausibility of Traveller's abstract system. What one chooses to like or dislike is a different story entirely.

 

[HG_B]

That's why I say we should agree about what does transient mean for us.

OED: passing away quickly or soon, brief, momentary, fleeting

So, people on vacay. People passing through the star system. Brought in for a specific, short contract (whether civilian or mil personnel).

 

[McPerth]

That's why I say we should agree about what does transient mean for us.

OED: passing away quickly or soon, brief, momentary, fleeting

So, people on vacay. People passing through the star system. Brought in for a specific, short contract (whether civilian or mil personnel).

So, most of people Hans talk about as transients, being in more or less long contract there, would not be so, making all of us right in more or less degree .

That's why is so important to define the terms we use, at least IMHO.

 

[Higgipedia]

OED: passing away quickly or soon, brief, momentary, fleeting

So, people on vacay. People passing through the star system. Brought in for a specific, short contract (whether civilian or mil personnel).

Definition IS important. Instead of debating who is transient and if they're counted, lets look at the definition of population in the UWP. I won't have access to my books until tomorrow, so I'll leave that to someone else.

Lets focus on the population side of the equation, not the transient.

And further thinking about operationalizing population, for what purposes are we counting people?

What I've found I need population for is my games is how many people are present at the given location at any one time, not the tax or citizenry rolls. Your mileage may vary depending on what you are usin population for.

 

[McPerth]

What I've found I need population for is my games is how many people are present at the given location at any one time, not the tax or citizenry rolls. Your mileage may vary depending on what you are usin population for.

While I agree with you about RPG, remeber that also strategic games (like TCS, AFAIK Pocket Empires, etc...) use the pop digit (and multiplier) in the sense you say you don't need...

 

[Fritz_Brown]

I must agree with Hans that for some things, transients must be counted. We have in the coast some cities whose population grow tenfold by summer, due to turistic industry (think on Costa Brava, Costa del Sol, etc...). Of course, you don't need to count them on the population census, but you must count on them when assigning services.

Excellent distinction.

Brought in for a specific, short contract (whether civilian or mil personnel).

Define "short".

 

[HG_B]

Excellent distinction.


Define "short".

Reread definition of transient for answer.

 

[HG_B]

So, most of people Hans talk about as transients, being in more or less long contract there, would not be so, making all of us right in more or less degree .

That's why is so important to define the terms we use, at least IMHO.

Correct. Example, my father was a "transient" at Edwards AFB as he'd work there a couple weeks out of the year. He took a contract at Martin Marietta for a year and lived there. He was not a transient. He no longer "lived out of a suitcase."

 

[BytePro]

Definition IS important. Instead of debating who is transient and if they're counted, lets look at the definition of population in the UWP. I won't have access to my books until tomorrow, so I'll leave that to someone else.

CT LBB3 (Classic Reprint) pg 7:
Population (2D-2): The digit indicating population is an exponent of 10. This may be viewed as the number of zeros following a one. Thus, a population digit of 6 indicates a population of approximately 1,000,000.​

There is also the 'Population Density' examples on pg 9 referring to persons per square mile equivalents to population level - but neither of these definitions explicitly qualifies exactly what is being counted. [Later works may have provided more explicit details. <shrug>]

In the RW there is no universal definition of who is counted in a 'population' - CT mimics that quite well. I also find it sadly amusing that folks will use such stats as if scientific gospel - how many population figures quote their error estimates? What are the significant digits implied by such stats?

For your amusement: http://www.census.gov/popclock/

Look at those counts - see how nice and neat they are... from an official U.S. government source. Read the 'fine print' at the bottom. These are all just estimates. Not even educated guesses, just extrapolations based on historical numbers. Anyone with a decent grasp of math and science should consider them the equivalent of bull excrement at the precision that is implied by the numbers presented. (Note also, the disclaimers about military personnel.)

Heck, when I visited the site the U.S. population 'clock' was at 315,655,264.5.

BTW: LBB6 continuation system provides that other worlds will have a max population digit 1 less than the main world. However, a satellite does not have this restriction.

 

[BytePro]

As to megacorps running Imperial starports - http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/consumerawareness/a/uspsabout.htm

 

[HG_B]

For your amusement: http://www.census.gov/popclock/

Look at those counts - see how nice and neat they are... from an official U.S. government source. Read the 'fine print' at the bottom. These are all just estimates.

So? Why are you ignoring the ACTUAL census counts (every 10 years) that ARE accurate. Nice conflating though. LMAO

 

[BytePro]

So? Why are you ignoring the ACTUAL census counts (every 10 years) that ARE accurate. Nice conflating though. LMAO

Obviously you didn't go to the site...

As to census counts being 'accurate' - right - LMAO! :rofl:

 

[aramis]

So? Why are you ignoring the ACTUAL census counts (every 10 years) that ARE accurate. Nice conflating though. LMAO

No, they aren't accurate. The census bureau thinks they may be off by as much as 50% in some areas.

I know for a fact (I've had them look) that I wasn't counted in the 1990. Many parents expect the dorms to do census for students, and the dorms put the onus on the parents.... and so lots of us didn't get counted.

Plus, the US Census often fails to count the homeless.

 

[HG_B]

No, they aren't accurate. The census bureau thinks they may be off by as much as 50% in some areas.

In macro, it is very accurate. "50% in some areas." is pretty meaningless unless actual figures are given. You can have 50% of a 10 person house miscounted. That's only 5 people total....

 

[BytePro]

In macro, it is very accurate.

Ah! Now they are 'macro' accurate ... :rofl:

Thanks - you do so often provide amusing posts!

"50% in some areas." is pretty meaningless unless actual figures are given. You can have 50% of a 10 person house miscounted. That's only 5 people total....

... for a single household when counting millions of households.

'Conflating' I believe is the term you misused... good going providing a proper example!