Populations that include transients
- Thread starter rancke
- Start date
It has happened in the past. In classic Greece or Rome, only citizens and free men were counted on census, while slaves, being an important share of the population, were not, as they were considered little more tan cattle.
According to what you posted, there seems to have been a historical tradition of ignoring UWPs. Ultimately its at Marc's whim or awareness, or a license holder and their wants and agreements.
Regards Rio in the Spinward Marches, Behind the Claw is a GURPS Traveller publication. Its been my understanding that GURPS Traveller setting is an ATU and not considered OTU by Marc/FFE. (Nothing against GURPS myself!) There was some ruckus with MgT and its version of the Spinward Marches. Still, I recall quite a few UWPs changed and being annoyed by this when attempting to use TravellerMap.com.
The simplest policy - stick to the UWP - certainly provides a challenge. But is not at all unreasonable in a shared universe. Personally I would rather that authors be held to a certain amount of consistency regards published material. Authors in a shared setting must be creative in interpreting the UWP and applying a writeup that doesn't conflict with other works.
IMTU, sometimes my solution is that the UWP is, in fact, incorrect. However, I always have an explanation why its incorrect and by and large I find the random UWPs provide inspiration for making up interesting write ups. Not to say I think the design system is all that great - I would have started with systems, not mainworlds, for starters... and one of my first design rule changes was to use 3D6 for population.
Overall I find the Trade Rules rubbish as well.
The Scouts, however, would (IMO) count the slaves, since they are not subject to the prejudices of the Romans. Unless, of course, the Romans had some way to persuade/force the Scouts to conform to Roman ideas.
A lot of the time the problem with "we don't count the lefthanded ones" explanations is that the Scouts have no reasons not to count the lefthanded ones. Especially since they manifestly do count them in other cases.
Hans
IIRC, Indians were generally not counted in the U.S. Census for the first hundred years (though slaves were).
If I was going strictly by TCS - population would merely be a count of inhabitants contributing to annual taxes.
Some people do cling to that misunderstanding. The deliberate changes that we introduced (with permission from the editor) in The Sword Worlds have been kept in the T5 listing. Rio's T5 UWP is presumably a result of the change being considered a mistake. It's not as if my writeup is anything more than fanon.
I disagree. It's unreasonable to insist on sticking to UWPs that are an impossible challenge to meet.
I couldn't agree more. The standard of consistency I submit would work best is "If it works, leave it be; if it doesn't work, change it and stick to the new version from now on".
It's not as if I'm advocating ignoring UWPs just because the writer has an idea that he likes better. I think that "it doesn't work" is an excellent and required reason for retroactive changes.
Oh, I agree. I just think that once you've been inspired by a random UWP to come up with an explanation, you should revise the UWP to reflect that explanation.
Hans
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In my country at least, your pension gets taxed...
Right you are. The text said 'contributing to annual taxes' not 'contributing to the economy'. My mistake.
Hans
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
For the purpose of the Census, slaves counted as 3/5s of a person.
Not clinging to anything here myself - just stating what I've been lead to believe. Hence I didn't state it as gospel, because I've no idea whether this is true and still don't without a quoting from an official published source.
As to your writeup - don't recall seeing it* and see no reason why personal fandom should have any compulsion to follow traditions, etc., except self imposed. If its being published by an official licensee or for profit, that's a different issue entirely.
Sorry, 'impossible challenge to meet' is just an opinion, and when it comes to fiction a hard one to justify. (Silly with regards to the random design of systems in the OTU and the trade rules, I will certainly grant you!)
Its the writers job to make it 'work' - you have to make up something. That is the whole point of fiction. How plausible is dependent on your own imagination and knowledge - and that of the reader.
Nothing says UWPs don't change over time, but the IIS surveys represent a static snapshot. Whether its allowed in official publications is up to Marc and his Licensees and I can't see that as reasonable regards the known space maps, except as errata.
[* is it online somewhere?]
Actually, I think that was only for purposes of representation and tax apportionment...
They were counted as whole persons regards population. The census identified slaves as non-free persons (or some such) in order to support the 3/5ths compromise (or whatever it was called). Indians weren't officially reported, even as non-free, till around the 1900's...
I explicitly worded it that way simply extrapolating from the mechanics provided in Trillion Credit Squadron (assuming I recall them correctly) which had some formula relating population digit to taxes collected to support fleets.
I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to the reason why that understanding persists despite several statements to the contrary.
There's a link to it in my post.
If people have been trying to justify a set of UWPs for decades and still not succeeding, it's a fact, not just an opinion.
And it was an alchemist's job to make gold[*].
[*] Or the Elixir of Life.
If I can't do it and somebody else can, I'm at fault (But, hey, what do I care? I've got the writeup the clever guy who outdid me came up with, so I'm all right). If no one else can do it either, odds are the task really is impossible. Perhaps it is not absolutely impossible, but the problem of getting one of the few literary geniusses who are up to the challenge to undertake it makes it impossible for all practical purposes. And at the end of the day we still don't get a writeup that works.
Hans
And I was pointing out that a per capita income is an average. Not all members of a population are taxed.
Hans
I DO understand your point BTW. It's a tough situation with the UWP's. Been wrangling with it since late 70's. Finally gave up and stopped using the 3I
I have too much time invested in the 3I for that to be an option. Though if Marc Miller ceases to support it, I may change my mind and drop Traveller altogether. More likely that I'll just keep on working with the 3I on my ownsome, though.
Hans
No problem - it would be helpful if you could provide references to official written statements to the contrary.
What are the set of UWPs that have flummoxed so many writers over the decades?
So, there's writeups that in your opinion don't work, or there are no writeups?
You mean apart from the fact that several changes and additions from GT material have been carried forward to MgT and T5? Part of MgT's Sword Worlds was cut and pasted from GT's Sword Worlds (Too much so, indeed -- the author forgot to backdate the information from 1120 to 1105).
Don and Rob have stated that they considered GT material valid (subject to inherent merit, of course, just as any other canon material).
We've been discussing a couple of them quite recently. Paya and Pixie.
Both. There are writeups that don't work. In the sense that they contain contradictions and implausibilities. Which makes it opinion in the same way that claiming that a chain of logic is wrong is opinion. And there are UWPs without writeups that I very much doubt anyone could do anything with.
Then, of course, there are the UWPs where it is possible to come up with a few explanations, but not nearly enough to cover them all. Worlds that are too small to retain their atmosphere if they're reasonably close to Earthlike composition is a prime example there. Sure, it's possible to use the superdense core with the thin mantle of Earthlike material (I've done it myself in a couple of cases). But using it often enough to cover all the too-small worlds in Charted Space is highly implausible.
Another general category are low-population worlds with sovereign governments. Sure, you can come up with a few political reasons why the Imperium would consider such legal fictions, but most writeups of low-population worlds are actually captive governments because low populations are generally not self-sustaining nor capable of defending themselves against acquisitive landgrabbers. In many cases there's no real reason why the Imperium should bother to regard a low population as sovereign. And that goes double for worlds outside interstellar states.
But you know what? If you want, feel free to imagine that all my posts include a liberal sprinkling of IMOs. It really doesn't matter to me if you feel justified in dismissing my opinions just because they are mere opinions. You're certainly not going to convince me that my opinions are wrong unless you come up with something better than that. I'll just dismiss your opinion for the same reason. But do feel free to get back to me if you come up with any substantial arguments to refute my opinions.
Hans
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Since those are not 'statements' as you claimed and don't answer my question regards references to official statements, yes, of course, apart from that.
Rob and Don are very helpful and active, but saying they consider GURPS valid is not the same as saying the GURPS setting is not an ATU. I consider GURPS valid too (and quality physical productions with good editing), but that doesn't mean its not an alternate version of the OTU. Borrowing some parts isn't the same as saying all changes are accepted as official in Marc's 3I.
A 'set' of two systems out of tens of thousands?
Sorry, I have a hard time believing no one can come up with fictional rationales for a handful of systems.
There are a lot of worlds covered by Charted Space.
I quite agree that the odds used in system gen do not accommodate a full setting well, but the full setting map of charted space is established and long ago published. Writers have to work with that, not what they'd like.
Looked at based solely on what we actually know (or have good reason to suspect) about our own solar system and observed exoplanets - most of the UWPs are 'implausable'. Looked at from a standpoint of science-fiction, and an eye towards gaming in the setting, is a quite different story.
Wasn't dismissing your opinions - was identifying them as such, since you did not and were using your opinions as if facts.
Its my opinion that you don't actually think the 3I is plausible. Stating that no plausible fiction can account for the occurrences of UWP combinations in a setting you otherwise suspend disbelief for regarding interstellar royalty, jump, psionics, animal derived aliens, gravitics, pocket universes, system controlling ancients and such just comes across as a pet peeve (pun intended).
I get that, but its really unproductive. Not interested in convincing you of anything - simply discussing a topic brought up on a public forum. Addressing the actual systems in question, or sharing your own fixes, would seem a better use of time. <shrug>
