Multiple Nobles on a world

[TWTP]

looking over the World Generation Tables and having worked with them in the beta I noticed a change regarding Nobles.

on Page 430 under section F

Nobility = cCe = Baronet, a Baron, and a Viscount 
     Based on Rich, Pre-Ag, Pre-High.

This seems to indicate that there are multiple Nobles for this world. However there is only room for one Noble on the UWP entry. This is not really a problem as The highest Ranking Noble will, I assume go in to the Entry. But there needs to be some text that states this out side of the example. (and that is the errata part of it) and mind you the example is the only clue that I have that this is how it should work.

Is there a possibility of multiple sub Nobles for a world?
IE: if Regina is cCe could there be multiple Barons and Baronets?

This needs some more text to clear it up.

OK that's my entry in the errata.
Obviously there can be multiple nobles on a world. (who own Noble lands) the question is how many can a world support. and is there a method for determining it? One method might be based on the importance value of a world.

IE:

  #Gentlemen = 1 + 20 * Importance    (no TC required)
  #Knights   = 1 + 10 * Importance    (TC = any)
  #Baronets  = 1 + 8 * Importance     (If TC = Pa or Pr)
  #Barons    = 1 + 6 * Importance     (TC = Ag or Ri)
  #Marquis   = 1 + 4 * Importance     (TC = Pi)
  #Viscount  = 1 + 3 * Importance     (TC = Ph)
  #Count     = 1 + 2 * Importance     (TC = Hi)
  #Duke(f)   = 1 + Importance -1      (TC =  In)
  #Duke(F)   = 1                      (TC = In)

  
  Note:  For Importance <0 use 0, 
If word hexes exceeded by the total amount of noble lands
 then remove the lowest ranking nobles until the world has 
sufficient land to support the nobles, or there is only one 
noble left.(The highest ranking noble)

Thoughts?

 

[GypsyComet]

A world may be home to many nobles, but it is represented in the Moot by one of each of the types indicated by its Trade codes and Importance. Usually these are different people, but you do get stacking on occasion.

 

[Drakon]

At "36,900 terrain hexes on a Size 7 world (pp445, 450, 464, 471)" there would have to be a huge number of noble to run out of land. That is about 144 arch dukes.

It seems to me that subsector and sector capitals would be more likely to have multiple nobles than ordinary planets. And having two noble fighting each other over bits of one planet means they are not defending the empire from the Vargr or pirates. So it is unlikely the Imperial Beaurcracy would assign two nobles to the same world without good reason. (Competing colonization proposals, or resource extraction ideas. Threat levels may require more resources than one noble can bring to bear.)

 

[Bloo]

Other threads which might be helpful:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=428920&postcount=11
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=428959&postcount=12
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=29584

 

[TWTP]

At "36,900 terrain hexes on a Size 7 world (pp445, 450, 464, 471)" there would have to be a huge number of noble to run out of land. That is about 144 arch dukes.

True if the hex granted is a terrain hex but it seems that they mean World Hex, at least that's how I read what is intended on Page 96.
So for a size 7 world that's only 540 hexes. so it could support only 8 Dukes and no subordinate nobles.

Now assuming you are correct and that it is just a terrain Hex rather than a world hex, then yes on a size 7 or size 15 world this is not likely to be a problem.

However, on a size 1 world this becomes VERY important. and if it is a World Hex they are granted then with only 20 hexes to be granted...

 

[TWTP]

At "36,900 terrain hexes on a Size 7 world (pp445, 450, 464, 471)" there would have to be a huge number of noble to run out of land. That is about 144 arch dukes.

Dang it if you had listed Page 50 as well this would have cleared up the World Hex versus the Terrain Hex issue. although Page 50 makes reference to a local hex as well.

If I hadn't been scrolling through the PDF of this book looking for something else, I would never had known that Page 50 had the content that it does.
makes we wonder what else is lurking in the tome.

Still a size 1 world has issues with too Many Nobles on it.

 

[Higgipedia]

If I hadn't been scrolling through the PDF of this book looking for something else, I would never had known that Page 50 had the content that it does.
makes we wonder what else is lurking in the tome.

Someone had made a comment that the T5 book is like the 1e Dungeon Master's Guide in the general notebook-like editing lends itself to learning new things every time you read it. I am inclined to agree.

Still a size 1 world has issues with too Many Nobles on it.

Well, a Size 1 world with a lot of nobles on it would have to have a high population. Given the lack of surface area on it, I would bet that the citizens have gone upward or downward in their limited footprint to accomodate all of those people. Think layers, like a WH40K Hive World or Coruscant from Star Wars. If there are 15 "layers" above ground and five below, the 12 world hexes translate into 900 terrain hexes. Adding 20 "layers of hexes" gives us 18,000 terrain hexes to work with. I'm looking at terrain hexes, since that's what you get economic control over, as opposed to the local hexes that you own outright.

Thoughts?

 

[arentol]

Personally I find the idea of nobility ranks being based on TC a bit strange and disturbingly arbitrary. But then the whole world generation thing is strange. For instance the following world would have an Arch-Duke on it:

Size 2, Thin Tainted atmosphere, 90% water, Population of ten billions, Balkanization government, Extreme Law, TL 8, Ix -1, and ship traffic of 1 every 20 years.

Admittedly this could potentially be a very interesting world from a game play perspective, but it sure doesn't make much sense, especially the Arch Duke being there.

Personally I think the system for world generation still needs a little tweaking and no matter how it works Nobility should be a more complex process than it is now.

 

[esampson]

Having glanced through the system generation rules now the whole thing about the nobles entry makes sense to me. Yes, there is only one box for Nobles on the card. If you were filling out the card for Regina you would put "cCe" in that box, the same way you would put "Im" in the next (for Imperial Allegiance) and "NS" in the one that follows (because Regina has both a Naval and a Scout base).

According to pg. 428 "The Imperium assigns a representative to each mainworld; this Imperial Noble interacts with the government and population, serves as an ambassador, and promotes trade and commerce."

They aren't actually in charge of the planet (or anything on the planet, necessarily) and there's nothing that says they are the only nobles on the planet. They are simply the ones who are there as Imperial representatives.

I don't see anything particularly odd about the idea that a Duke lives on the planet but the Emperor has sent a lowly Knight to act as the Imperial representative. There could be hundreds of reasons for this. It could be a snub to the Duke, the Duke might not have been interested in being a representative, there may be other factors that prevent the Duke from fulfilling the role of representative such as he's an Admiral and so spends a fair amount of time away from the planet (it's still his home and he's there the majority of the time, but having the Imperial representative out of reach just 20% of the time might be too much) or maybe the Knight is being moved out of the way for some reason and sticking him out in the boondocks was a convenient way to do it (and the Duke is actually glad the Knight is here because it means he might be going back home soon).

Truth of the matter is that the Duke might consider the position of Imperial representative to be beneath him. He's a Duke, for crying out loud. Let one of those petty nobles handle the ambassadorial duties.

 

[Drakon]

According to pg. 428 "The Imperium assigns a representative to each mainworld; this Imperial Noble interacts with the government and population, serves as an ambassador, and promotes trade and commerce."

They aren't actually in charge of the planet (or anything on the planet, necessarily) and there's nothing that says they are the only nobles on the planet. They are simply the ones who are there as Imperial representatives.

Actually I think that depends.

The three examples I have show very different worlds. Slath is a small colony, almost no law, and only about 300 people. The Imperial knight very well me the local judicial or governmental ruler for the place. Or even possibly the corporate representative as well.

Tsamis on the other hand has millions of people and is deep in the Vegan Autonomous Zone. So the knight is probably little more than an imperial ambassador. Possibly those lands were awarded for some mutual beneficial incident, or possibly it is cerimonial.

Lemish is a larger place, again millions of people. But it is the subsector capital, home to an imperial naval base with 2 fleets in residence (60th and 105th). There are also the Vargr pirates troubling these innocent farmers. What the baron's role in all this and how he interfaces with the subsector government, the fleet and the Empire, we are still sorting out.

In any event, the land grants essentially grant the patent holder a chunck of land to develop and rule if he so desires. Which is one reason why TCs become important in determining where the Emperor enfiefs his nobles. As PCs, we can use these as nothing more than monetary investments, a form of imperial pension. If the PCs want to play a different game, the rules are loose enough to allow for that as well.

 

[whulorigan]

Personally I find the idea of nobility ranks being based on TC a bit strange and disturbingly arbitrary. But then the whole world generation thing is strange. For instance the following world would have an Arch-Duke on it:

Size 2, Thin Tainted atmosphere, 90% water, Population of ten billions, Balkanization government, Extreme Law, TL 8, Ix -1, and ship traffic of 1 every 20 years.

Admittedly this could potentially be a very interesting world from a game play perspective, but it sure doesn't make much sense, especially the Arch Duke being there.

Personally I think the system for world generation still needs a little tweaking and no matter how it works Nobility should be a more complex process than it is now.

I had been thinking about this as well, and though this is nowhere stated in the published rules, an alternate way of assigning Noble authority might be to base it upon the World's Importance Extension.

For example, we know from T5 canon that a C6/Soc=f Duke receives his Land Grant on an important world (defined as [Ix= 4+]), and that worlds of [Ix=0] or less are deemed unimportant worlds. This leaves [Ix= 1 thru 3] as "middling", increasingly important worlds.

Perhaps a Noble assignment scheme (at least for the sphere of Imperial Representative Authority) could be something along the lines of:


C6/Soc=F Subsector Duke [Ix= 4+ and Subsector Capital]
C6/Soc=f Duke [Ix= 4+]
C6/Soc=E Count [Ix= 3+]
C6/Soc=e Viscount [Ix= 3+]
C6/Soc=D Marquis [Ix= 2+]
C6/Soc=C Baron [Ix= 1+]
C6/Soc=c Baronet [Ix= 1+]
C6/Soc=B Knight [Ix= 0+]

[Ix= -1 or less] ==> No Official Noble rep.


Land Grant assignment might (perhaps) be left unaltered, as they have to do with the Noble's income.

Just something to think about and mull over.

 

[esampson]

Actually I think that depends.

The three examples I have show very different worlds. Slath is a small colony, almost no law, and only about 300 people. The Imperial knight very well me the local judicial or governmental ruler for the place. Or even possibly the corporate representative as well.

Tsamis on the other hand has millions of people and is deep in the Vegan Autonomous Zone. So the knight is probably little more than an imperial ambassador. Possibly those lands were awarded for some mutual beneficial incident, or possibly it is cerimonial.

Lemish is a larger place, again millions of people. But it is the subsector capital, home to an imperial naval base with 2 fleets in residence (60th and 105th). There are also the Vargr pirates troubling these innocent farmers. What the baron's role in all this and how he interfaces with the subsector government, the fleet and the Empire, we are still sorting out.

In any event, the land grants essentially grant the patent holder a chunck of land to develop and rule if he so desires. Which is one reason why TCs become important in determining where the Emperor enfiefs his nobles. As PCs, we can use these as nothing more than monetary investments, a form of imperial pension. If the PCs want to play a different game, the rules are loose enough to allow for that as well.

Three things. Firstly, I should correct myself and say that the stat does not necessarily imply any authority over the area. Certainly it is entirely possible that one or more of the nobles shown by the stat have some sort of authority. All I meant is that it isn't an automatic thing.

Secondly, even without full authority over the area one or more of the local nobles might have some sort of defacto authority. They are representatives of the Emperor, after all, and what they send back to the Capital can have repercussions. This kind of thing has happened (and almost certainly continues to happen) in the Real World and can lead to interesting intrigues such as a Knight who is an Imperial representative who is able to exert pressure on a Duke who has a local land grant (and who possibly wants the players to do something about it).

Thirdly, there actually nothing that says that the Imperial representative has a land grant on the planet (there's nothing that says they don't, either, but I'm just pointing out that their ownership of land shouldn't be taken as...err...granted). It's entirely possible that the Imperial representative resides at some sort of embassy which is the property of the Emperor (or may even be the property of the local government but which enjoys certain privileges as an embassy).

 

[arentol]

I had been thinking about this as well, and though this is nowhere stated in the published rules, an alternate way of assigning Noble authority might be to base it upon the World's Importance Extension.

For example, we know from T5 canon that a C6/Soc=f Duke receives his Land Grant on an important world (defined as [Ix= 4+]), and that worlds of [Ix=0] or less are deemed unimportant worlds. This leaves [Ix= 1 thru 3] as "middling", increasingly important worlds.

Perhaps a Noble assignment scheme (at least for the sphere of Imperial Representative Authority) could be something along the lines of:


C6/Soc=F Subsector Duke [Ix= 4+ and Subsector Capital]
C6/Soc=f Duke [Ix= 4+]
C6/Soc=E Count [Ix= 3+]
C6/Soc=e Viscount [Ix= 3+]
C6/Soc=D Marquis [Ix= 2+]
C6/Soc=C Baron [Ix= 1+]
C6/Soc=c Baronet [Ix= 1+]
C6/Soc=B Knight [Ix= 0+]

[Ix= -1 or less] ==> No Official Noble rep.


Land Grant assignment might (perhaps) be left unaltered, as they have to do with the Noble's income.

Just something to think about and mull over.

The only problem with this is that my sample planet, with its very large population, would have no noble. That seems strange to me. Especially since I could tweak it to be a little more desirable and still have an Ix of -1. Also I think you could make a planet with a population in the thousands that has a Marquis or maybe even count on it.

I would rather use a more complex formula. Ix by itself has some issues.

 

[whulorigan]

The only problem with this is that my sample planet, with its very large population, would have no noble. That seems strange to me. Especially since I could tweak it to be a little more desirable and still have an Ix of -1. Also I think you could make a planet with a population in the thousands that has a Marquis or maybe even count on it.

I would rather use a more complex formula. Ix by itself has some issues.

Yes, but you could also argue that population is not the only determination of the Noble Administrator Rank. A number of factors would go into determining the "importance" of a world to the Imperium; the Noble assigned would be based on Imperial interests (technology, trade, strategic importance, etc).

The Importance Extension is giving a synopsys of how important the Imperium believes the world to be, and therefore (possibly) what Noble Rank merits its attention.

Nevertheless, a table similar to the one above might be usable as part of the formula for determining noble affiliation, if you are working on a House Rule.

 

[rancke]

Yes, but you could also argue that population is not the only determination of the Noble Administrator Rank. A number of factors would go into determining the "importance" of a world to the Imperium; the Noble assigned would be based on Imperial interests (technology, trade, strategic importance, etc).

Population isn't the only determinant, no, but it's the bedrock foundation. Population has a strong correlation to power and power has a strong correlation to political influence. A high-population member world with no Imperial high noble would require a really singular explanation, even if we assume that Marc Miller has dropped his idea about all member worlds having at least a baron assigned.


Hans

 

[Bloo]

For example, we know from T5 canon that a C6/Soc=f Duke . . .

Technically, that would be C6/Nob.
C6 how 4 permutations: SOCial, NOBility, CHArisma, or CASte, per pp. 63-63, 67.
Soc f = does not exist, Soc maxes out at F (15). Nob f is 17.

 

[rancke]

C6 how 4 permutations: SOCial, NOBility, CHArisma, or CASte, per pp. 63-63, 67.

What's the difference between SOCial and NOBility? Surely nobility is an integral part of the social structure?


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

Technically, that would be C6/Nob.
C6 how 4 permutations: SOCial, NOBility, CHArisma, or CASte, per pp. 63-63, 67.
Soc f = does not exist, Soc maxes out at F (15). Nob f is 17.

No. That is not in the text anywhere.

POINT #1
On p.63, Table top right:

_______________________________
​

CHARACTERISTIC EQUIVALENCE
Ch Abb Characteristic
.
.
.

C6 Soc Social Standing
C6 Cha Charisma
C6 Cas Caste
_______________________________
​

1) There is no C6 Nob mentioned as a separate C6 Characteristic.
2) There is no abbreviation "Nob" used for any C6 throughout the CD-ROM/Book.


POINT #2
On p.63, Right column:

Nobility
Nobility is the expected noble rank held by an individual
based on Social Standing. Characters with Soc are participants
in the widespread social structure of the universe,
which includes granted or inherited titles of nobility to those
with higher values of Soc.
.
.
.
Dukes. A character elevated to Soc = f (lower case) is
a Duke (Duchess). While all Dukes are powerful, some are
more powerful than others. The next increase in Soc elevates
the individual to F (upper case). The title remains the
same, but the noble’s power increases.
​

POINT #3
on p.67:
Yes, there is a C6 Nobility Table:

_______________________________
NOBILITY C6 Soc Equivalent
A Gentleman
B Knight
c Baronet
C Baron
D Marquis
e Viscount
E Count
f Duke
F Duke
G Archduke
H Emperor

Nobility is the expected or equivalent (not necessarily actual) noble rank held by an individual based on Social Standing.
_______________________________
​

This topic has been discussed at length in another thread. The last sentence above is most likely refering to polities other than the Imperium (such as the Solomani Confederation, Zhodani Consulate, or Aslan Hierate [in my and others opinion], which do not use the Imperial system of Noble Ranks).


POINT #4
p.96 (corrected for official errata) [sorry that the table did not format very well]:

_______________________________
NOBLE LAND GRANTS
Noble Soc - Hexes (non-MW / MW) [Where?] Preferred World

Gentleman A - 0/1 [any] any
Knight B - 1/1 [homeworld] any
Baronet c - 2/2 [one system] Pre-Ag or Pre-Ri
Baron C - 4/4 [one system] Ag or Ri
Marquis D - 8/8 [one subsector] Pre-Ind
Viscount e - 16/16 [one subsector] Pre-Hi
Count E - 32/32 [one sector] Hi or In
Duke* f - 64/64 [one sector] Important World*
Duke** F - 128/128 [one sector] Important World**
Archduke G - 256/256 [one domain] any

* Importance = 4+ worlds that are NOT Subsector or Sector Capitals.
** Subsector or Sector Capitals.

- Nobles receive Land Grants on the worlds on which they hold fiefs. Noble Land Grants are cumulative.

- Each noble title confers a Land Grant. Each Hex generates a profit equal to Cr10,000 per Trade Classification per year. A Hex with no TC generates Cr5,000 annually.

- Duke f and F. There is no external or stated difference between the two levels; but those in the government know the relative hierarchy.
_______________________________
​

Duke F is the rank of Duke that we have all been familiar with throughout Traveller: The Subsector Duke (one of whom rises to the position of Sector Duke). His fiefworld is the subsector capital.

Duke f is a new rank of Duke junior to the subsector Duke associated with Importance 4+ worlds that are NOT subsector capitals. Note also (since Nobles are promoted up the Social Chain) that every Subsector Duke C6/Soc=F is also a Lesser Duke C6/Soc=f.

 

[whulorigan]

What's the difference between SOCial and NOBility? Surely nobility is an integral part of the social structure?

Hans

I hope my previous post answers the question according to T5.

Population isn't the only determinant, no, but it's the bedrock foundation. Population has a strong correlation to power and power has a strong correlation to political influence. A high-population member world with no Imperial high noble would require a really singular explanation, even if we assume that Marc Miller has dropped his idea about all member worlds having at least a baron assigned.

Hans

I believe that Marc Miller is still holding that all worlds except Forbidden worlds and Barren/Dieback worlds have a Noble Rep. I am not sure whether or not Baron is the minimum level any more, however.

I agree that there are probably other factors than just importance. As far as importance goes, however, and to account for all worlds having a Noble Rep, perhaps a modification to my table could be:

C6/Soc=F Subsector Duke [Ix= 4+ and Subsector Capital]
C6/Soc=f Duke [Ix= 4 +]
C6/Soc=E Count [Ix= 3 +]
C6/Soc=e Viscount [Ix= 2+]
C6/Soc=D Marquis [Ix= 1+]
C6/Soc=C Baron [Ix= 0 +]
C6/Soc=c Baronet [Ix= -1 +]
C6/Soc=B Knight [Ix= -2 +]

That should cover all worlds (except a very rare few that are Ix = -3 or less).

What factors other than population and/or importance do you think would be determinant in assigning a noble (or do you think it should be based entirely off of World Pop alone)?

 

[rancke]

I agree that there are probably other factors than just importance. As far as importance goes, however, and to account for all worlds having a Noble Rep, perhaps a modification to my table could be:

C6/Soc=F Subsector Duke [Ix= 4+ and Subsector Capital]
C6/Soc=f Duke [Ix= 4 +]
C6/Soc=E Count [Ix= 3 +]
C6/Soc=e Viscount [Ix= 2+]
C6/Soc=D Marquis [Ix= 1+]
C6/Soc=C Baron [Ix= 0 +]
C6/Soc=c Baronet [Ix= -1 +]
C6/Soc=B Knight [Ix= -2 +]

That should cover all worlds (except a very rare few that are Ix = -3 or less).

I don't know how Ix is calculated.

What factors other than population and/or importance do you think would be determinant in assigning a noble (or do you think it should be based entirely off of World Pop alone)?

I think it should be based on history and politics. Jewell, for instance, has sufficient income to be a duchy (albeit a pretty minor one), but I explain its status as a county under the Duke of Regina as a result of the Aledons having been strong supporters of the Alkhalikois and the various emperors chosing not to separate out Jewell as a duchy of its own. I have the interdicted Grant being a thriving world with a marquis until an artificial disease got loose during the 4FW; the marquis is still alive and still Marquis of Grant; his son will inherit the title. Heya is a vicountcy, so its high noble is strictly speaking a viscount; however, one of his ancestors got an honor countship, so he's often (erroneously) referred to as the Count of Heya. There used to be a duke of Vilis subsector called the Duke of Arden. When the peace settlement after the 3FW gutted the duchy, the Duke was invited to move to Capital and was provided with a decent personal fief to support him. His descendant is still Duke of Arden, but now an honor duke involved with the government on Capital and no longer a high duke in the Spinward Marches.

(All examples are from MTU, i.e. non-canonical).

In more general terms, if you have two worlds that both rate a subsector duke in the same subsector, one of them won't have a subsector duke. If you don't have any worlds in a subsector that rate a subsector duke, one of them will have a subsector duke anyway.


Hans