Life support

[stofsk]

I've been making a couple of deckplans for my campaign, and I've wondered about a couple of things.

1. Each stateroom/small cabin has a 'fresher'. This is a small cubicle thing where you can take a dump or piss, but can you also have a shower in it?

2. Where does the water come from? How does Traveller take it into account? How much supply do you have?

3. Same as 2. but in regards to oxygen.

4. Where do you do your laundry?

5. How do you dispose of waste?

More questions as they occur...

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

1) Yes.

2) Traveller does not take that into account, but IMTU each crewmember/passenger has a supply of 10 liters per life support week that is recycled in a closed loop system.

3) Same answer as #2, but the supply is 1 person-week of air (not just oxygen) for each life support week.

4) Each stateroom has a very small washer/dryer unit, about the size of a minifridge. On larger crewed ships, there is actually a laundry room (manned by ship's servicemen).

5) Most organic waste (urine, feces, food) is recycled for the water. IMTU, the solid organic waste is used as growth medium for some staple foods on vessels so equipped. Some airless worlds actually will buy your filled sludge tanks from you since the organic material is so rare there. For solid, non-organic waste and some organic waste the ship dumps it at the next port it stops at (part of the docking fee is waste removal).

 

[far-trader]

I wouldn't so much call them answers, rather my opinions built on years of playing and reading. Yours to use as you will

1. Depending on the rules perhaps, but as far as I think I know it's only full staterooms that actually have a fresher included. Other (lesser) accomodations have to make provision for a fresher outside the quarters.

IMTU the standard stateroom fresher takes up just under 1/4 of the room. My staterooms are 4 squares (2x2) with the fresher a quarter circle or angled affair in one corner.

They have all the functions built into the wall and folding out to allow waste and cleaning of most encountered species. That is a toilet, basin, shower, mirror vid, for wet or dry cleaning, with drying and soap and even more features in the higher TL such as body painting, coating, grooming and such. In addition they have a host of laundry settings and can even serve as a secure storage closet and in emergency a vacuum rated shelter, with an included rescue bubble.

2. Traveller doesn't really account for it, and there is probably plenty in all but a few extreme cases. IMTU the fresher recycles and purifies almost all of it. The fresher even has a small slot on the outside that can provide beverages of any temperature and flavour, as well as various processed food stuffs in a variety of textures and flavours, all of it recycled. Of course some people are squeamish and avoid using this feature and only take meals from the galley. Which, if you are travelling below High Passage, is partly recycled too.

3. Same as 2.

4. See 1.

5. See 1.

Originally posted by stofsk:
More questions as they occur...

Which I'm sure will garner opinions which you may use if they work for you.

 

[far-trader]

Ah, Jeff's post reminds me I usually place a Fresher as part of the galley space as well (proportional to the size of the quarters) where more recycling takes place and the crew does the laundry and such for the officers/passengers.

Also as he notes dumping your waste is part of the docking fee, amd part of the costs of life support include treating and flushing the system as well as restocking the vitals needed to make it all work.

Interesting idea on the trade of organics there Jeff

Would also make an "interesting" speculative (or otherwise) cargo

 

[stofsk]

Awesome answers, thanks!

 

[J.C.D.]

I was just about to ask about life support systems, and why, for example, the otherwise excellent ship design system in gurps traveller doesn't have any life support systems when i saw this.

One other question comes up: How many people can a ship support in terms of oxygen? I mean, you could theoretically cram a couple hundred people into a beowulf, but would it be able to recycle the air fast enough? What's the maximum number of people a beowulf, marava, suileman, etc, could support?

One thing I thought of, and hang onto your hats for this because it'b brilliant, is that a ship may have nearly unlimited oxygen supplies thanks to it's fusion reactor.

Think about it a minute: A fusion reactor fuses hydrogen to helium. Ok, what happens if you suqeeze a little harder? You can fuse helium into lithium, then beryllium, then boron, then carbon, then nitrogen and finally into the big O, oxygen!

I'm not grognard enough (tho I'm slowly evolving) to know of a traveller fusion reactor can produce elements other than helium, but if it can easily and rtoutinely fuse hydrogen into helium, then it might be able to fuse other light elements up the periodic table until it got to oxygen, a very useful element, most lifeforms find.

Of course it would mean the reactor could also produce helium, lithium, beryllium, boron, carbon and nitrogen.

Beryllium is a very useful metal and would be quite useful in a high tech setting where light and strong things needed to be made since it's a very light and strong metal, and if it could be made as a by-product of fusion power it might explain why so many goodies like ship hulls can be made the way they are.

But back on track, I wonder if a fusion reactor could produce oxygen as a byproduct and if so would that explain the life support system?

As a followup to this, a fusion reactor must at least produce helium as a byproduct. Helium has some useful properties, so I wonder if it gets collected and sold as a useful byproduct?

 

[mike wightman]

The best description of a fresher I've found in canon is is the CT Signal GK adventure.

Plumbing: Each stateroom contains sanitary facilities for individuals, including shower, toilet, and washbasin.

Sanitary necessities are handled by the fresher, which includes a multi-function shower, a toilet, a sink, and a small washer/dryer (for the benefit of middle passengers). All components fold unobtrusively out of the way when not in use.

 

[stofsk]

Originally posted by J.C.D.:
But back on track, I wonder if a fusion reactor could produce oxygen as a byproduct and if so would that explain the life support system?

What if the fuel is H2O and through electrolysis you split the Hydrogen to use in the powerplant, while the Oxygen is released into the cabins?

I don't know what this does to the Traveller canon, however.

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

Originally posted by J.C.D.:
One thing I thought of, and hang onto your hats for this because it'b brilliant, is that a ship may have nearly unlimited oxygen supplies thanks to it's fusion reactor.

Think about it a minute: A fusion reactor fuses hydrogen to helium. Ok, what happens if you suqeeze a little harder? You can fuse helium into lithium, then beryllium, then boron, then carbon, then nitrogen and finally into the big O, oxygen!

But back on track, I wonder if a fusion reactor could produce oxygen as a byproduct and if so would that explain the life support system?

As a followup to this, a fusion reactor must at least produce helium as a byproduct. Helium has some useful properties, so I wonder if it gets collected and sold as a useful byproduct?

Give this wonderful article by Terry Carlino a read. You can find it at Freelance Traveller or just hit the link below.

http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/shipyard/stm/fusion.html

Now, as to fusing oxygen. While it is possible, the amount of energy required to fuse the oxygen itself would be greater then the amount of energy expended in getting water somewhere and electrolysizing it into oxygen and hydrogen. So it becomes uneconomical and impractical to create oxygen that way. You can do it, but it doesn't make sense to do it that way.

IMTU, the helium is vented away from the ship as a waste gas. It would take too much effort to retain and then cool down the helium to a storable temperature to make it practical.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by J.C.D.:
What's the maximum number of people a beowulf, marava, suileman, etc, could support?

J.C.D.,

You can find that answer in GT:Starships. I believe it's the first actual official answer to that particular question that has been available in Traveller.

One thing I thought of, and hang onto your hats for this because it'b brilliant, is that a ship may have nearly unlimited oxygen supplies thanks to it's fusion reactor.

It is brilliant. It is also as old as the idea of fusion itself and utterly impractical for anything but weirdest of situations.

I first ran across the idea close to forty years ago in one volume of the Tom Swift juvenile scientist series. Tom and his pals are stuck at their moon base for a while. Tom creates oxygen and food (!!!!) for them using the process you so recently thought of. Believe me, if it was in a Tom Swift book, the idea has been around a looonnnggg time.

Google "the curve of binding energy" next. You'll see how far 'up' that curve oxygen is and get some understanding of the energies involved in 'building' it atom by atom from hydrogen. Simply put, you'll need a regular fusion reactor to supply power to the fusion reactor that is making oxygen.

Fusion as a power source will work because the energy gained by fusing certain atoms is (hopefully) more than the energy used to force that fusion in the first place. Fission works as a power source in the same manner doing the opposite thing; you gain more energy from splitting atoms than it takes to force that splitting.

You'll notice that the curve of binding energy peaks near an iron isotope. Very roughly speaking, everything before that peak is 'easy' to fuse and everything after that peak is 'easy' to split. However, you'll also notice that the elements we use in fission power generation and the elements we will use in fusion power generation are about as far from the peak of the binding energy curve as you can get. The further from the peak, the less energy it takes to fuse to 'fiss'.

So, that's the rub. You can use a fusion reactor to make oxygen. Sadly, you cannot use a fusion reactor to make oxygen and electricity at the same time.

Of course, IYTU YMMV. And YM should V because it is YTU! We all make tweaks we feel are fun and neccessary to make our TUs work. You should too. It's one of the strengths of Traveller.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Interesting idea on the trade of organics there Jeff

Would also make an "interesting" speculative (or otherwise) cargo

Dan,

Yes it is interesting, isn't it?

IMTU, certain ports pay you for your sewage. Just think, lots of wonderful fertilizer specifically designed for terrestial-derived micro-organisms arriving with each and every starship. Terraforming anyone?

We're not talking about 'night soil' here, so none of the disease and handling problems you see in Asia apply. As Jeff correctly points out, most of the water has been removed from most of the materials. That process sterilizes the materials as a consequence. The remainder would be solid or as near a solid as it doesn't matter. It could then easily be partially reliquified aboard ship or at the port for handling purposes.

I'm sure the monies each ship gets from it's 'night soil' cargo isn't much, but every CrImp helps.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[veltyen]

Of note, Aliens has a fusion reactor doing terraforming, spitting out organics.

The bigger problem is that the conditions to fuse up oxygen are different from that to fuse up helium. As an industrial process it certainly is a useable idea, on board a ship less so, unless the reactor is designed to do that as well. Bills comments about energy requirements are also worth noting, you do get far less extra energy when doing this. There should still be a small net gain in energy, but if the process requires any extra hardware (a bigger reactor for example) then it probably won't be available on a ship till later TL's.

IMTU the extra power kick from TL15 reactors comes from this ability to fuse into larger atoms.

 

[mike wightman]

Two things:

gravity plates that allow you to suspend fusion plasma without bulky and energy consuming electromagnets;

and

nuclear dampers that allow you to amplify the strong force and thus mess around with the binding energy curve.

Taken together thse two magic technologies could allow fusion reactions that wouldn't be possible with the technology we have today.

 

[Spinward Scout]

How is this handled on a submarine? I would think that would give you a "real world" view of how life support works. I think, now that the Cold War is over, that the most the Boomers stay down is three months. Attack subs even less. I'm sure that Google could give you some idea.

Dameon

 

[far-trader]

Nothing too secret about life support onboard submarines. Howstuffworks.com among others lays it out pretty clearly:

Submarine Life Support

The big difference between Submarines and Starships is the first operates exclusively in a fairly constant and handy medium, ocean water. A ready supply of oxygen and water as well as an excellent heat sink.

I think the major limitation on closed cycle life support aboard a spaceship is going to be carbon dioxide scrubbing.

Though there seems to be an onboard regeneration scrubber in testing that cycles the saturated modules through a steam purge. In that case it would seem that life support could be practically unlimited as far as breathable air goes, but it can't be 100% efficient so there must be some loss:

Regenerative Scrubber

 

[Rossoneill]

T 20 mentions X percentage of Crew or Passengers over regular numbers that life support can handle
with or without moderate to severe problems
Like smell etc
I believe it is percentage life support overloaded)
25%,50%,75%
I am at work so i cant get the exact percentages right now

 

[Rossoneill]

Ok i finally got out my T20 Book
1. For every 4 t state room you can carry 2 persons with no problem ,

For every 2 extra people carried the effictiveness of the LS is halved =4 Total people per Ls unit .
Paying passengers will complain loudly and may demand full or partial refunds and may report the captain to local starport .
Crew will take it for a week ,if longer crew will grumble and if it persists pass the 1st planetfall crew will leave .

For every 2 more extra people carried LS is halved again =1/4 effectiveness .6 total people per Ls unit .
The air aboard has High carbon dioxide levels and smells very bad.To the point that it is almost nauseating to breath.Anyone attempting to do much more than rest will loose 1 pt of stamina for each round of exertion

Two more extras carried =1/8 effectiveness =8 people total per Ls unit
The air is barely Breathable ,people without oxygen supply need to make a fortitude save DC 15 or fall unconscious.Once unconscious the victim will begin to lose 1 pt of Lifeblood every round until dead or given access to an oxygen supply .

If using 2 ton Small staterooms one person can be carried with no problems
For the overloading just cut all the nembers by 1/2
Hope this helps