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LBB Vehicles

Piper

SOC-13
I've been toying with the idea of creating a Book 2-style design sequence for vehicles and I'm looking for input.
My idea is for a system that would be simpler than either Striker or MT that would produce simple vehicles and rules for movement and combat compatible with Books 1 and 4.

Is there anything already out there that covers this? I don't want to re-invent the wheel and I was wondering if this has already been done.

I'm leaning towards basing this on the LBB 8 Robot tables (as a start). Any suggestions or ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks
 
Meg-a-Traveller? I don’t see that book, mine only go from 0-8 ;)

LBB 8 should give you almost all the information you need right down to the suspension.
The only addition you would need would be stats for gas turbines and internal combustion.

4,500l chasis
A 100hp internal combustion engine is about 75kw
50l of hydrocarbon fuel enough, for about 5 hours of operations at TL7

Or fuel cell. The brain can be installed for autodrive and other control functions.
I like the implications of integrating computers with everything.
 
So what kind of high-tech power plants does Book 8 list, and how do they compare to (say) starship power plants? Are there scaled-down, lower powered fusion plants, or do they stick to battery-ops?
 
Piper...

I think that system was made back in the 80's.

It was called Car Wars.
 
OK. Let's see, those fusion plants are going to be small. On the order of kilograms, I presume. Maybe a lower bound of something like 10 kg? How much power do they output? Kilowatts?

Lessee, using CT power plants, we've got 25MW per 3 cubic meters... rats, I need mass, too. Call it 10 tonnes, or 10,000 kg, okay?

So 2.5MW for 0.3m^3 at 1,000kg.
250kW for 0.03m^3 at 100kg.
25kW and 0.003m^3 at 10kg.

So is there something resembling a 25kW plant that is relatively small (how big is 0.003m^3?) and weighs a manageable 10kg?

How about a 2.5kW plant at 0.0003m^3 and 1kg?
 
Ummm, actually, the fusion powerplants are 1,000kg and up. Yes, 1x10^3 kg! And, the power is in "units" - I don't see where it's related to any RL unit.

I would stay as far away as possible from LBB8 for a vehicle design system - it doesn't even seem to match the rules for other kinds of systems in the other books. It is confusing on top of everything else. I am finding it very hard to design a robot with the thing, much less a vehicle.
 
Originally posted by robject:

So is there something resembling a 25kW plant that is relatively small (how big is 0.003m^3?) and weighs a manageable 10kg?
That's about 3 cubic millimeters, isn't it? And it still weighs 10kg? Ouch...
 
Originally posted by Jeffr0:
Piper...

I think that system was made back in the 80's.

It was called Car Wars.
D'oh!!
Yes, Car Wars with anti-grav. :D
I think that's where I'm headed with this.

Rather than try to produce a competing (and inferior) system to the design sequences in Striker and MT, I was aiming for a "drop-in" system that would allow simple, representative vehicles to be produced in a few minutes.

Take a "mid-size" chassis and drop in a complete drive train. Wheels would take so many spaces, tracks a few more, grav, air-cushion, etc. would be similar. These would include the power plant, transmission and suspension. For more spaces you could opt up to a fast variant.
Weapons, passengers, armor and other systems could be handled the same way.

Originally posted by robject:
OK. Let's see, those fusion plants are going to be small. On the order of kilograms, I presume. Maybe a lower bound of something like 10 kg? How much power do they output? Kilowatts?
The smallest fusion plant is 245kW and masses 1000kg. They top out at 2MW, massing 4000kg.
These are TL12 numbers. Higher TL's lower the mass while increasing the output power.
The smallest would be 400kg for an 850kW (-ish) plant.
These are big suckers even at TL16.
 
Well let's see how that fits with Book 2 numbers.

245kW (0.001 EP) at 1000kg.

... 1.7 kg per kW between these two...

2MW (0.008 EP) at 4000kg.

Those things are massive. Is there a mass curve, or does it look linear?

Multiply that by 12.5, and we get

25MW at 50,000 kg. Too massive at that size, I suspect, so there's a leveling out that would probably happen at some point.

Reverse engineering, if the 25MW plant is 3 cubic meters, then would the 2MW plant would be 240 liters?

UPDATE

FFS1 and 2: 1m^3 masses 4t, 2MW per m^3.

Sounds like a dead-on hit with Book 8.
 
Originally posted by Fritz88:
...I am finding it very hard to design a robot with the thing, much less a vehicle.
There's a LBB 8 Robot spreadsheet here but I've never used it so I can't speak to how well it works.

Anybody used this or know of another?
 
Yup, robject, TL12/1m^3/4000kg/.245MWhr, TL13/1m^3/3000kg/.37MWhr, TL15/1m^3/2000kg/.735MWhr, TL16/1m^3/1600kg/.858MWhr

Piper, I am trying to build a spreadsheet (while trying to create a robot). But, I'm finding it's not as straightforward as ship-building. I will check out that spreadsheet, though. Edit: The spreadsheet is gone. So is the page on which it resided. :( end edit
 
I like the idea. Sure, I have both striker (bought a second-hand ragged copy from a friend) and MT (downloaded it when it was offered legally and free on DriveThroughRPG [SP?]), but there is one thing I don't have much of - time. Making an LBB2 ship takes a few minutes, especially if you're well-experienced with the system: choose tonnage, drop in a power plant, a manouver drive and a jump drive, calculate bridge tonnage (0.02x ship tonnage), calculate fuel (10% of tonnage per jump number plus 10 dtons per power plant number), drop in a computer drop in the turrets and drop their armament into them, calculate how much crew your ship needs (a simple table in LBB2), drop enough staterooms for them, drop in carried craft/vehicles (if any), calculate the remaining free space for cargo/magazine and total the costs for the overall ship cost. For simple ships (merchants usually), a few minutes; for more complex ships (military), a few minutes more. Striker is varied and fun to work with, but takes atleast 30 minutes per vehicle, *ASSUMING* you have the components (mostly weapons) done before.

Sure, you can expand ALOT on LBB2 (as I've done, or as Steve Osmanski has done for small craft), but still you retain the time-efficient, user-friendly design sequence.

LBB8 is basically "Striker Lite" for robots; a vehicle design system could be grown out of it, but I prefer an LBB2 proto-Traveller-feeling system. Maybe even one that will fit with my task system better than my "Striker VERY Light" variant.

I suggest a table of a few "default" chassis sizes (as in LBB 2), with built-in ground (i.e. tracks of wheels), air-cushion and grav drive-train requirements (or will we need a seperate table for each drive-train type?). Add "standardlized" fuel requirements. Add a few rules for archaic (i.e. pre-fusion) power plants. I suggest that the basic unit of measurement would be 1m^3, with hulls on the tables coming with a ready column of ship-tonnage approximation (for stowage purposes).

Give each vehicle a number of hardpoints with 3 drop-on options per hardpoint (turret, swivel or fixed). Use the LBB4 weapons, with a few clarifications.

My original idea to use LBB1 combat with vehicles is to give each vehicle an LBB1 armor (Cloth, Battledress or Battledress -something), an apply damage to vehicles in damage dice (i.e. most slugthrowers would have 3) rather than individual points; add a capability for armors to absorb several damage dice, and use LBB2/LBB8-style damage allocation tables with one roll per one (?) penetrating damage die. See thos thread. The only problem would be to adapt it to a task system (such as mine) without resorting to too many combat martixes. I guess that some system of penetration might be used, but this will add yet another roll to each attack... In addition to the to-hit roll and the two damage allocation table rolls!

Also try reading JTAS#17 pp.33-38 for an LBB4 air-combat system.
 
Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
LBB8 is basically "Striker Lite" for robots; a vehicle design system could be grown out of it...
LBB8 is Striker with a growth hormone problem, not just "Lite". You could "grow" a vehicle design system out of it, but it wouldn't look pretty or elegant.

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
I suggest that the basic unit of measurement would be 1m^3, with hulls on the tables coming with a ready column of ship-tonnage approximation (for stowage purposes).
Cubic meters?! :eek: I would have to go at least one order of magnitude down from that just to design a HMMWV! The total volume for that would be about 10-12m^3, but 4-5m^3 of that is just cargo, and a great number of the bits and pieces would be less than 1m^3 each. And, my little Saab (which is actually pretty roomy) only has an interior volume of 2,599 liters (2.9m^3). :( Yes, on the dTon table, though.


Yes, something like LBB2 would be great (for vehicles OR robots), though.
 
The basic design system is doped out and ready for test. I was hoping to have a worksheet made up. I may get to that tonight.

The combat system is giving me fits (mostly fire control issues) and won't be ready for a few days.

The system is intended to produce vehicles compatible with Books 3 and 4 and works as far as that goes: the designs I tested match Book 3 quite well. Also, armor values and (ultimately) weapon penetration will be compatible with MT and Striker allowing for a quick design to be produced for those games, if desired.

This is a very simple system. In fact, that's why I'm releasing it early. I'd like to get an idea if this level of abstraction is adequate for most players. If it's too simple, or headed in the wrong direction, I'd like to know before too much work goes into it.

That said, anyone interested in reviewing what I have so far can PM me with an e-mail address and I'll send off the file.
The file is in rtf format, 20kB.
 
Originally posted by Fritz88:

I would stay as far away as possible from LBB8 for a vehicle design system - I am finding it very hard to design a robot with the thing, much less a vehicle.
LOL. I couldn't agree more!
 
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