K'Kree = Cool...

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
If we go by that article from the JTAS, the one couched as an interview between a human vegetarian and a K'kree noble; plus the JTAS article about Religion in the 2000 Worlds; then the answer is yes, for the K'kree "manifest destiny" is to wipe out all sentient carnivores in the universe. [/QB]

That's not the same as wiping out all carnivorous animals though, right? They must know the ecosystem would collapse. Just those species that are fully sentient (though what a K'Kree's definition of 'fully sentient' - let alone our own - is anyone's guess).

 

[flykiller]

Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by flykiller:

in addition, can the k'kree campaign of carnivore elimination actually work?

If you mean large carnivore, sure. We've pretty well accomplished that in a number of areas, with the result that deer turn into a major pest and need to be controlled by shooting them (predator replacements are certainly possible). For small carnivores, I doubt wiping them out is feasible. </font>[/QUOTE]the deer case is not a good comparison. we haven't eliminated the large carnivores, we have replaced them. if deer multiply in our areas we simply hunt them ourselves, but canon descriptions of k'kree state that they are greatly distressed by the sight (smell) of any dying or dead animal - except, presumably, carnivores. in australia when rabbits multiplied beyond measure they were finally controlled only when ruthlessly exterminated by any and all means available. would k'kree do this? and if they didn't, what happens to the eco-systems they sterilize?

as for k'kree distinguishing between sentient and non-sentient carnivores, one notes many non- or barely-sentient large terran carnivores that would catch any k'kree's attention, such as sharks, lions, wolves, and polar bears. since the k'kree are to be portrayed as inherently and psychotically anti-carnivore it may be difficult for them to ignore such as these. if they don't, then what's the size limit? cats? poisonous snakes? mosquitos? disease bacteria?

 

[Zutroi]

Ranke said:

It is not acceptable to kill your neighbors because you don't like their eating habits.

The Caribbean is named for the Carib indians, one-time denizens of the region who were exterminated by the Spanish and mourned not at all by any of the other peoples of the region who formed a large portion of the Carib diet. Call it 'Cultural Relativism' if you will, but I'd find it PERFECTLY acceptable to kill my neighbors if their dinner plans included having me for a main course!

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by flykiller:
canon descriptions of k'kree state that they are greatly distressed by the sight (smell) of any dying or dead animal - except, presumably, carnivores.

Hm. Well, I guess this is a Sign that one should always hunt with FGMPs. Not enough left to be distressed by then

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Zutroi:
Rancke said:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> It is not acceptable to kill your neighbors because you don't like their eating habits.

The Caribbean is named for the Carib indians, one-time denizens of the region who were exterminated by the Spanish and mourned not at all by any of the other peoples of the region who formed a large portion of the Carib diet. Call it 'Cultural Relativism' if you will, but I'd find it PERFECTLY acceptable to kill my neighbors if their dinner plans included having me for a main course! </font>[/QUOTE]Leaving aside the question of whether or not the Carib indians were cannibals at all, eating someone implies killing him first. I have no problem with using force, even deadly force if necessary, to prevent someone from murdering another intelligent being. And if the K'Kree restricted their jihad to sophonts who ate K'Kree, I'd applaud them. But if you had bothered to read through the thread before posting, you would have realized that the K'Kree habit I deplore is the one of forcing their neighbors to become vegetarians and exterminating them if they refused.


Hans

 

[mad13142000]

How we can fall into the trap of propaganda so easily...

Almost ALL of the popular names for N. America's Native populations were derogatory in nature. When the Europeans landed here, they just asked a group what they called those around them. So, they told them - If the Arawaks didn't like their neighbors, why not call them cannibals?
The largest reservation in the US is the Navajo in Arizona, Utah, and New Mexico. Navajo is the name given to them by the Tewa Pueblo, and means thieves. The Navajo name themselves Dine or Dineh, meaning we the people .
The other big Arizona tribe, Apache, means enemies. The Zuni named them.
The Papagos, in S. Arizona, call themselves Tohono O'otam, or 'Desert People'. Their name is given by the Pimas, and means bean eaters .
Pimas call themselves Ahkeemult O'oodham, or 'River People' - Their name actually means I don't know .
The Sioux call themselves Dakota meaning 'people' - Their name was given to them by the Ojibwes: Nadouwesioux, meaning little snakes .
'Mohawk' means 'cannibal' in Algonquian; they call themselves 'Kaniengehagas', 'People of the place of flint'

Only when the 'white man' came to America did the natives no longer call themselves 'We the People'. They were shot, enslaved, and tortured to clear land for a 'new country'. It would be best if we not degrade them further...


-MADDog

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Lords, its me, "that Baron Character"

Perhaps a bit of Humanitic spin has been applied to the "Wipe Out All Carnivores" thing. I'm certain there is some criteria at work (Only carnivores predisposed to eating K'Kree, for example...) The elimination of ALL carnivores, taken literally, would be ecological suicide, not to mention bad form, what?

As to this "Its only a Game" palaver... so-named "serious" treatment of these theoretical issues are the best way to approach them and discuss them. The "only a game" school of thought is a lot like the "Thinking is Hard" school. It helps to have even a purpoted sense of reality at work in these diverse topics, to make it seem realistic. It makes the difference between a crappy game and a good one, what? One should take a Hobby seriously, Why put this much time and
effort (to say nothing of money, what?) into something and go at it half-assed?

Harping the Waaay old string of "Its only a game" serves no purpose but to derail an active and productive topic by forcing people to defend thier grip on "Reality" ad nauseum... I think its safe to assume everyone here has a firm grip on reality...

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a Jump Grid to realign, what?

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Lords, its me, "that Baron Character"

Perhaps a bit of Humanitic spin has been applied to the "Wipe Out All Carnivores" thing. I'm certain there is some criteria at work (Only carnivores predisposed to eating K'Kree, for example...) The elimination of ALL carnivores, taken literally, would be ecological suicide, not to mention bad form, what?

As to this "Its only a Game" palaver... so-named "serious" treatment of these theoretical issues are the best way to approach them and discuss them. The "only a game" school of thought is a lot like the "Thinking is Hard" school. It helps to have even a purpoted sense of reality at work in these diverse topics, to make it seem realistic. It makes the difference between a crappy game and a good one, what? One should take a Hobby seriously, Why put this much time and
effort (to say nothing of money, what?) into something and go at it half-assed?

Harping the Waaay old string of "Its only a game" serves no purpose but to derail an active and productive topic by forcing people to defend thier grip on "Reality" ad nauseum... I think its safe to assume everyone here has a firm grip on reality...

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a Jump Grid to realign, what?

 

[mad13142000]

woah...
It's like Deja-Vu all over again...

-MADDog

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by rancke:
But if you had bothered to read through the thread before posting, you would have realized that the K'Kree habit I deplore is the one of forcing their neighbors to become vegetarians and exterminating them if they refused.
[/QB]

Hrm. Let's see... forcing a group to comply with one's demands using threats of force, and then using military might to overwhelm and/or exterminate them. Now, why does this remind me of current affairs...?

 

[Liam Devlin]

let me begin with:
"this post contains no tasteless K'kree BBQ jokes whatsover"..
followed by my sincere apologies to those whom it offends.{Evil Dr Gee, others)..

the K'kree's habit of forced vegetarianism/ expulsion, or elimination/ extermination is a deplorable one-[agreeing with Rancke].
The K'Kree are a major race, and part of canon so we can discuss their innovations, and ways & means of doing things-[this is a free forum, and we all exercise our rights; & if not all of us, our reason!]

That all said and done, the K'kree have no doubt studied eco system control, and eugenics. they may have developed bio weapons to eradicate and eliminate competitors even in herbivore life forms that might compete or destroy their food--not just carnivores! (to say nothing of hostile plant life!)
Given their TL, geneering a retro virus to eradicate/ sterilize all females of a species (thus ensuring they die out thru lack of reproduction) is but one manner of doing such a job. Like wise bio research in ways of geneering food plants for themselves, terraforming, they excell at.
One can even postulate clever use of carnivores to rid other ones, then introduce a germ that kills off your natural predator once its eliminated your pests. We humans use some insects this way without a qualm. Why not K'kree, on larger scale?

there are kinder ways to go about the eugenics thing as well--comply, or be sterilized, not just shot out of hand-though, a hasty K'kree might see that as more expedient, the long sighted ones would take the other approach.
Forced sterilization isn't pretty, but it sends a message no sophont could ignore. Subject races...hmm. Seems to me a matter of method we quibble over--look at the Hiver federation, some several hundred races in its make up, the Hiver's calling the shots, Ithklur their armies, Z'atch)sp)their starfaring merchants..by agreement or manipulation each fills a role.

rather insidious when you get right down to it..
I don't take the Vargr as a joke, anymore than I do the K'Kree. Indeed the Hunting nature of the Vargr of the rebellion era [say what you like about the script-its more in character for them to do the attila the Hun thing than not].

back to K'Kree..say what you like, they make potent adversaries in the Traveller universe-then, and now as we head towards the TNE 1248 era.

 

[trader jim]

BBBBuuuurrrppp.....O already been done in another thread???....O'well!!!

 

[Mythmere]

I imagine that for the K'kree, the distinction between herbivore and carnivore is simply more important than the distinction between sapient and non-sapient. Perhaps K'kree don't even make a great deal of their sapience - it is, after all, a conceit of the highly individualistic to make fine distinctions between oneself and others. Many Asian cultures which place less value on individualism than the western norm also have animist aspects in their cultures, and/or "unity with the universe" concepts such as those in Daoism, Zen Buddhism, Shinto, etc. So, leaping from that cultural referent, the K'kree might be striving for "unity with the vegetarian universal herd," and just be terraforming away at everything that looks different from the vegetarian universal herd. The fact that some of these carnivores might be sapient would be irrelevant under such a moral gestalt. "Oh yes, that carnivore concept of sapience that the smart ones use to justify the distinction between themselves and their prey..." If only they could reach true universal herd awareness, they would realize the irrelevance of cognitive distinctions and discover the underlying vegetarian/herd reality. Since they can't though, they obstruct and obscure the true nature of reality and must be removed.

Thus endeth my attempt to psychoanalize the herd mentality.

 

[Jame]

Here's a thought - psionic K'Kree. Imagine getting one of THOSE on your dinner plate! GT:A2 is the only reference I know of of psionic K'Kree, though...

 

[mad13142000]

Originally posted by Mythmere:
I imagine that for the K'kree...<snip>
Thus endeth my attempt to psychoanalize the herd mentality.

Part of the problem may be how WE define things with intelligence...

Sen tient (sen'shent) - Able to feel; Having feeling: Sentient Beings adj.

So, by OUR definition why would an animal, who is sentient, proceed to eat another animal, when it has been shown ALL animals posess feeling? If I do harm to the domestic cat (a Solomani pet), does it not react as another Vargr would? If it true with such a minor animal species, one would expect it to be true of others...
Granted, the K'kree probably do not view things this way, for if they did, WE would not be hunted...
It's just a mental excercise from one of my pack-mates who is a scholar and teacher of pups....

-MADDog

 

[trader jim]

Question? can the Kree catch the measles or chicken pox, or small pox???.....hhhhhmmmnnn

 

[mad13142000]

Originally posted by trader jim:
Question? can the Kree catch the measles or chicken pox, or small pox???

Yeah, but they'd need a really tiny net...


"Thank you, ya'll come back, my second show is always different, and all are good..."
-MADDog

 

[Spinward Scout]

<<<Instead of eating K'Kree, we'll just force them to change their diet to include meat products>>>

I wonder if that's just what the Hivers said they'd change the K'kree society into - which won the Hivers the war, of course.

Scout