High Guarding again

[AnotherDilbert]

HG tells us that its turns are 20 minutes and ranges are indeterminate. But, as 1G acceleration is enough to get from any 'short' range out to 'long', we can tell what the maximum distance short range can be is.

EDIT: Actually, I take that back, because a fleet with manoeuvre 0G can win initiative and change range, after many turns on no range change (so little to no relative velocity) and against another fleet with no acceleration (so no tricking the other fleet into change the range for you). So short range and long range are not just indeterminate, but variable.

Range is determined by the winner of the initiative roll, influenced by the relative acceleration of the fleets, the relative numbers and relative fleet tactics skill, hence it not just about straight acceleration, but some sort of relative manoeuvring going on.

I guess the basic assumption is that the fleets keep together and more or less match vectors, manoeuvring around the common vector.


As Mike says, the faster fleet can break off the engagement any time it likes. They can just fly away, but don't, as long as the engagement goes on.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

No, Mayday states quite clearly what the abstract ranges in high Guard are, the timing of a game turn makes no difference to weapon range.

As Mayday range isn't exactly compatible with LBB2 range, I don't think we should take that as an absolute.

Mayday, p12:
High Guard: Book 5 for Traveller deals with an alternative starship design and combat system; that system can be adapted to the Mayday movement system (by incorporating statements as to range) while retaining its own combat resolution.
Two ships which have matched courses are considered to be at boarding range, Otherwise, all ships within five hexes of each other are at short range. Ships seperated by more than five hexes are at long range. Ships beyond fifteen hexes are out of range, and cannot fire.

The highlighted part does not mean "is exacly", more like "can be made playable".

Note that in LBB2'80 ships can't see, and presumably can't fire at each other at ranges over 3 ls (3 hexes in Mayday).

 

[Rupert]

Range is determined by the winner of the initiative roll, influenced by the relative acceleration of the fleets, the relative numbers and relative fleet tactics skill, hence it not just about straight acceleration, but some sort of relative manoeuvring going on.

Sure. But ships can change range, or even escape with no Agility at all, and no functioning manoeuvre drive at all (presumably as long as they're not otherwise disabled)

I guess the basic assumption is that the fleets keep together and more or less match vectors, manoeuvring around the common vector.

So it would appear, but the result of this and the completely adstract way of ordering lines and adjudicating range and escapes means there's no way of inferring anything about the actual distance each range is supposed to represent. Given the turn duration and a general assumption that 1G is the floor for meaningful manoeuvre, we might guess that short range would extend to about 7,000 km (the distance you get at 1G in 20 minutes from a standing start), or maybe ~15,000km (what that would be using the normal convention for GDW's space games where they treat acceleration as an instant event at the turn's beginning). If we assume that it's based around a more common warship agility/acceleration of 3-4G, with slower ships being given 'the benefit of the doubt', we might put the limit of short range at 25,000km or even 50,000km, but that's based on a whole lot of assumptions and guesswork.

For what it's worth, MegaTraveller used 25,000km range bands, and 'near' (MT's equivalent of short) range was two hexes, or 50,000km. I think, if one must have a concrete range in a game where you're using HG, the 50,000km from MT is probably the best choice, given MT combat is essentially HG combat with extra complications, weirdnesses, and errata.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Look at the breaking off by acceleration from the reserve and pursuit, an agility six ship in the reserve breaks off with an agility of eight... 8g acceleration from a 6 g drive?

HG'80, p41:
PURSUIT STEP
Ships breaking off by acceleration must begin at long range; they may break off from the line of battle or the reserve. Ships may break off alone or in groups; a group breaks off at the agility of i t s slowest ship. Ships breaking off from the reserve (assuming the line of battle has not been broken through) do so as if their agilities were two greater than they are.

Semantic quibble: They are not breaking off with 8 G, they are breaking off "as if" they had 8 G. The rule is just saying it's easier to break off from the reserve.

 

[Rupert]

As Mayday range isn't exactly compatible with LBB2 range, I don't think we should take that as an absolute.


The highlighted part does not mean "is exacly", more like "can be made playable".

Note that in LBB2'80 ships can't see, and presumably can't fire at each other at ranges over 3 ls (3 hexes in Mayday).

Also note that Mayday pre-dates both versions of HG, so that text is a late addition, presumably to the 1980 printing.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Sure. But ships can change range, or even escape with no Agility at all, and no functioning manoeuvre drive at all

Agreed, it's a highly abstract system modelling several factors very simply.

So it would appear, but the result of this and the completely adstract way of ordering lines and adjudicating range and escapes means there's no way of inferring anything about the actual distance each range is supposed to represent.

From HG'80 alone, agreed.

Given the turn duration and a general assumption that 1G is the floor for meaningful manoeuvre, we might guess that short range would extend to about 7,000 km (the distance you get at 1G in 20 minutes from a standing start), or maybe ~15,000km (what that would be using the normal convention for GDW's space games where they treat acceleration as an instant event at the turn's beginning). If we assume that it's based around a more common warship agility/acceleration of 3-4G, with slower ships being given 'the benefit of the doubt', we might put the limit of short range at 25,000km or even 50,000km, but that's based on a whole lot of assumptions and guesswork.

Movement isn't fire. Range is based on sensor and weapon range, not really manoeuvre speed.
Hex size is reasonably determined by time scale and acceleration, with ~15 000 km (~1/20 ls) fitting the velocity vector of 1 G for 20 min, or ~30 000 km (~1/10 ls) fitting 1 G for 30 min.

For what it's worth, MegaTraveller used 25,000km range bands, and 'near' (MT's equivalent of short) range was two hexes, or 50,000km. I think, if one must have a concrete range in a game where you're using HG, the 50,000km from MT is probably the best choice, given MT combat is essentially HG combat with extra complications, weirdnesses, and errata.

I would not look to MT for information about spacecraft movement... Please...

I would look to LBB2, where everything happens within a few ls, with an extreme range of 3 ls, or 60 of the hexes above. It's even basically compatible with TNE.

Something like:
Short: ~1 ls (LBB2 DM±0, TNE 10 hex),
Long: ~2 ls (LBB2 DM-2, TNE 20 hex),
Extreme: ~3 ls (LBB2 DM-5, TNE 30 hex).

Edit:
We can even squeeze Mayday into that scale by pretending that turns are 40 minutes and hexes are ~60 000 km (~0.2 ls), hence a maximum range of 15 hexes is 3 ls.

 

[mike wightman]

Semantic quibble: They are not breaking off with 8 G, they are breaking off "as if" they had 8 G. The rule is just saying it's easier to break off from the reserve.

hence the question mark at the end of my sentence - it is not a statement but rather a question as to what it represents, because it can not be 8g acceleration.

 

[mike wightman]

Also note that Mayday pre-dates both versions of HG, so that text is a late addition, presumably to the 1980 printing.

The revised version of Mayday that includes the HG conversion was released concurrent with HG80

 

[kilemall]

Sure. But ships can change range, or even escape with no Agility at all, and no functioning manoeuvre drive at all (presumably as long as they're not otherwise disabled)

So it would appear, but the result of this and the completely adstract way of ordering lines and adjudicating range and escapes means there's no way of inferring anything about the actual distance each range is supposed to represent. Given the turn duration and a general assumption that 1G is the floor for meaningful manoeuvre, we might guess that short range would extend to about 7,000 km (the distance you get at 1G in 20 minutes from a standing start), or maybe ~15,000km (what that would be using the normal convention for GDW's space games where they treat acceleration as an instant event at the turn's beginning). If we assume that it's based around a more common warship agility/acceleration of 3-4G, with slower ships being given 'the benefit of the doubt', we might put the limit of short range at 25,000km or even 50,000km, but that's based on a whole lot of assumptions and guesswork.

For what it's worth, MegaTraveller used 25,000km range bands, and 'near' (MT's equivalent of short) range was two hexes, or 50,000km. I think, if one must have a concrete range in a game where you're using HG, the 50,000km from MT is probably the best choice, given MT combat is essentially HG combat with extra complications, weirdnesses, and errata.

For my CT maneuver HG, I use 250000 km for short range corresponding to the DMs and plasma/fusion limits aspect of the range effects. This is derived from the first -2 DM from CT.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Semantic quibble: They are not breaking off with 8 G, they are breaking off "as if" they had 8 G. The rule is just saying it's easier to break off from the reserve.

hence the question mark at the end of my sentence - it is not a statement but rather a question as to what it represents, because it can not be 8g acceleration.

The +2 agility for being in the reserve represents breaking off "with a good head start" to the race/pursuit. This makes it "easier" to escape a combat from the reserve than from line of battle.

Additionally, pilot skill can also be a factor in breaking off by acceleration.

• (Pilot skill / 2) - 1 ... round fractions up = +Agility to craft

"Don't worry, I know a few maneuvers. We'll lose 'em."
- mildly notorious Corellian Pilot wanted for bounty who had break off by jumping​

 

[mike wightman]

Precisely, HG maneuvering is not based on acceleration rating.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Precisely, HG maneuvering is not based on acceleration rating.

I would say it's primarily based on acceleration (agility), but there are also other factors that contribute.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Precisely, HG maneuvering is not based on acceleration rating.

To be FAIR ... how much acceleration your craft can build up in a straight line is "less important" than having the necessary agility to apply that acceleration in the direction needed to pursue.

If you want to use an analogy of car racing (in "hot pursuit") ... what's one of the CLASSIC ways to throw pursuers off your tail?
Duh ... you make a turn ... and they miss that turn.

So if my car is more "nimble" (read: higher agility) than your pursuit car, I can make turns that you're unable to follow.
If I can make a turn that "you can't" ... even if you can go "really fast in a straight line" you may wind up "quickly" going in the wrong direction and lose track of me.

If you're talking about a straight line "drag race" with no maneuvering involved, then sure ... acceleration is all that matters.
If you're talking about "needing to maneuver AND KEEP UP" ... then agility becomes the overriding factor.

If I can turn in ways that you can't then I can set up situations in which you'll overshoot the intercept ... and by the time you "come back around" to try and pick up my trail, I've already "left the area" and escaped.

I would say it's primarily based on acceleration (agility), but there are also other factors that contribute.

This is true.
You need more than just acceleration ... you also need "cornering ability" (see: agility) ... and agility is something that required the dedication of power plant output to achieve, so in an escape from pursuit context you need to be ALL IN on powering your maneuver drive to the maximal extent in order to get away (with a clean pair of heels).

Acceleration rate is just the "first order of business" ... while Agility is the "second order of business" (and is thus, the more important of the two).
Going FAST in the WRONG DIRECTION rarely "wins" a pursuit.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Acceleration rate is just the "first order of business" ... while Agility is the "second order of business" (and is thus, the more important of the two).
Going FAST in the WRONG DIRECTION rarely "wins" a pursuit.

Agility is acceleration. M-drives need power in order to produce thrust. If you provide less than full power to the M-drive, you get less than full thrust. Currently available acceleration, depending on how much power is routed to the M-drive, is called Agility in HG'80.

TCS, p12:
AGILITY
Agility is a measure of the amount of energy available to the ship's maneuver drives, even when other operations are in progress.

If you ignore weapons and other power consumers, and send full power to the M-drive, you get Emergency Agility = M-drive rating (reduced by battle damage):

TCS, p12:
Emergency Agility: Because of the importance of agility, it is possible for a ship to elect not to use energy consuming weapons in a combat round and instead divert energy to its maneuver drives. In such a case, an emergency agility rating equal to the ship's maneuver drive or power plant number, whichever is lower, may be used.