Commander Truestar
SOC-14 1K
I'm also not certain what the Squadron code would be for the five 30k dTon Zhimaway BattleRiders
OTU Only: Does anyone know of a Canon Class for Battle Tenders?
- Thread starter Commander Truestar
- Start date
Going through each weapon:
The missiles are 50-ton bays.
The sandcasters are UCP 9. At TL-14, that requires 30 barrels.
The beam lasers are also UCP 9. They also require 30 barrels per battery.
The plasma guns are UCP 3. At TL-14 that requires 1 barrel per battery.
Assuming they went with the most space-efficient layout, it would be 200 triple sand turrets, 100 triple beam laser turrets, and 20 single plasma gun turrets, plus the 20 missile bays. AAB 14 claims 400 turrets but I have no idea how to make that work. Looking at HG '80, the USPs should be the same as the UCPs for the turret batteries after accounting for the TL bonuses, so it would have 20 batteries of USP 9 sandcasters, 10 batteries of USP 9 beam lasers, and 20 batteries of USP 3 plasma guns (along with 20 USP 9 missile bays). Since it's 300,000 dTons, only 60% of those will bear.
The missiles are 50-ton bays.
The sandcasters are UCP 9. At TL-14, that requires 30 barrels.
The beam lasers are also UCP 9. They also require 30 barrels per battery.
The plasma guns are UCP 3. At TL-14 that requires 1 barrel per battery.
Assuming they went with the most space-efficient layout, it would be 200 triple sand turrets, 100 triple beam laser turrets, and 20 single plasma gun turrets, plus the 20 missile bays. AAB 14 claims 400 turrets but I have no idea how to make that work. Looking at HG '80, the USPs should be the same as the UCPs for the turret batteries after accounting for the TL bonuses, so it would have 20 batteries of USP 9 sandcasters, 10 batteries of USP 9 beam lasers, and 20 batteries of USP 3 plasma guns (along with 20 USP 9 missile bays). Since it's 300,000 dTons, only 60% of those will bear.
I'd just treat the Zhimaway as regular ships whenever they're launched, but I'll admit that's because I don't remember squadron rules and they're cruiser-sized as individual ships. As mentioned earlier in the thread, they're 30k-ton ships, and they have a big spinal gun (Class M Meson), 2 50-ton particle bays, 3 50-ton fusion bays, and 10 50-ton missile bays, plus what looks to be 30 triple beam laser turrets in 3 batteries of 10 turrets and 120 double sandcaster turrets arranged into 8 batteries of 15 turrets each (it's said to have 150 turrets, and that works mathematically even if it feels a bit weird from a design standpoint). They're M6 and pretty decently armored.
Changing topics, I don't know whether these would count or not, but Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium has Tenders and Riders for TL-14 and TL-15, with two riders at each tech level, one with a particle spinal and one with a meson spinal. All of the Riders are 30k dTons. Like everything else in that book, they don't have names, but they could be adapted for use as classes that might be mentioned in sources without details.
Changing topics, I don't know whether these would count or not, but Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium has Tenders and Riders for TL-14 and TL-15, with two riders at each tech level, one with a particle spinal and one with a meson spinal. All of the Riders are 30k dTons. Like everything else in that book, they don't have names, but they could be adapted for use as classes that might be mentioned in sources without details.
Commander Truestar
SOC-14 1K
My thoughts are that since they are fighting ships on their own rather than squadrons of fighters, the "Fighter USP code" might be Zero.
Then, despite the fact the tender carries them, they are perhaps treated as independent ships
Thoughts?
Commander Truestar
SOC-14 1K
So, if my numbers and reading your comments is correct here...
The USP for a World Class Battle Tender is: BT-T7419H3-190600-93009-0 MCR 79 300,000 tons
The USP for a World Class Battle Tender is: BT-T7419H3-190600-93009-0 MCR 79 300,000 tons
There's a specific tender and a rider class buried in CT Fighting Ships - the planetoid monitor Empress Troyhune was transported from Mora/Mora to Rohise/Mora by the million-ton battle tender Gorodish in place of one of its Hadrian-class riders (link to Traveller Wiki for a fan USP; there's also one for the Gorodish). The end of the entry mentions that the tender carries eight riders of 50,000 tons each (so the USP in the wiki doesn't match the source material), and the total cost for tender and eight riders is approximately the same as two Tigress dreadnoughts. Mongoose High Guard 2022 says the Hadrian riders are also carried by Warmonger-class tenders.
One more from Battle Rider that's more on the "isn't that cute" end of the scale - the Maggart-class Clippers carry one or two Manticore-class Light Battle Riders, which are 400-ton system ships with a meson "spinal" (probably a bay-sized fixed mount) and a pair of laser turrets. The Maggart-class are 2750-ton vessels.
One more from Battle Rider that's more on the "isn't that cute" end of the scale - the Maggart-class Clippers carry one or two Manticore-class Light Battle Riders, which are 400-ton system ships with a meson "spinal" (probably a bay-sized fixed mount) and a pair of laser turrets. The Maggart-class are 2750-ton vessels.
The numbers are number of discrete sandcasters; that 30 for A can be 10 triple turrets with 3 SC each, or 15 double with 2 each, or 30 single. Same as in HG.
Given how FF&S did things, they'll be actual spinal mounts, just not very big ones. Meson guns and PAWS don't work very well as bay weapons using FF&S.
In other editions they can't be spinals, though, and Truestar's trying to set up the various classes in CT. The smallest meson spinal is 1000 tons in HG '80. The Chrysanthemum is a good example of how TNE's design system is spinal-happy. It has twin particle spinals in BR, which are turrets in CT. The Midu Agashaam has its 50-ton bay likewise converted to a spinal in BR. The Manticore has a spinal that does the same damage as the Midu Agashaam, so it seems reasonable to make it a similar-sized weapon in other editions - a 50-ton bay - rather than trying to shoehorn a thousand-ton spinal into a four hundred-ton ship.
The PAWS and Meson limitations in the TNE bays is simply that they limit the length of the tube, and with those weapons, "size does matter(tm)".
The bay weapons in CT, are both pretty low factor and more easily defended (configuration, armor, screens) against. Not saying they're worthless, they're crushing to anything they can hit to be sure. But that's their primary advantage, attacking targets that can't really defend against them. And I certainly wouldn't want an unfriendly 10 bay Meson Ortillery ship orbiting over my battle field on any particular day.
Or, as aramis once mentioned, mounting a meson sled in the cargo hold of a pirate ship -- just a bad day getting worse.
The main line spinals have the power to really punch through, though.
The bay weapons in CT, are both pretty low factor and more easily defended (configuration, armor, screens) against. Not saying they're worthless, they're crushing to anything they can hit to be sure. But that's their primary advantage, attacking targets that can't really defend against them. And I certainly wouldn't want an unfriendly 10 bay Meson Ortillery ship orbiting over my battle field on any particular day.
Or, as aramis once mentioned, mounting a meson sled in the cargo hold of a pirate ship -- just a bad day getting worse.
The main line spinals have the power to really punch through, though.
For large ships, mostly true. However, the Voroshilef's meson bays do more damage (albeit at shorter range) than the spinals on the Manticore, Chrysanthemum, Midu Agashaam, Aurora, Maggart, or Lancer (and also more than the spinal on the Cleon or Triumph tenders). Those spinals aren't the dominating weapons that CT spinals are, and most of those ships are smaller than the smallest spinal in CT (without modules and carried craft, the Aurora and Maggart are both below 1000 dTons).
Since the Chrysanthemum and Midu Agashaam spinals are known to be reinterpretations of smaller weapons from other editions due to TNE's design peculiarities, it's likely all those other classes also use smaller weapons as their primaries in other editions. A CT meson bay in a Fixed Weapon Mount (from AM6 Solomani) would seem to be the best fit in that edition for these "pocket spinals" based on how they're described in TNE fluff.
Since the Chrysanthemum and Midu Agashaam spinals are known to be reinterpretations of smaller weapons from other editions due to TNE's design peculiarities, it's likely all those other classes also use smaller weapons as their primaries in other editions. A CT meson bay in a Fixed Weapon Mount (from AM6 Solomani) would seem to be the best fit in that edition for these "pocket spinals" based on how they're described in TNE fluff.
Yes, I have tried several times the climactic scenario in Battle Rider where the RCN faces off against the Empire of Solee. The Maggart only has those Manticore small spinal riders to deploy against a SEH cruiser being used by Solee. You rapidly discover those spinal mesons are pants against a decent meson screen. Your only hope is a double damage "outstanding" hit at close range. There aren't many of those cards in the Battle Rider deck!
I don;t think even that would be effective against an undamaged Starburst. The screen save is base 2, modified to 14 by the Outstanding hit, modified to 0 by the number of screens. It needs the Lancer to get an Outstanding close shot (screen save of 6) or for a bunch of ships to use their lasers and/or the Fusilier to snipe at it with the particle spinal in the hopes of something getting through its sandcasters to land some damage.
None of the coalition 'heavy' weapons in that scenario can reliably damage a Starburst. An outstanding hit with the PAW spinal is the best bet, and even with crack crews the odds aren't great. If the Solee player denies an opportunity to get at the smaller ships on their side, the RCN player's best tactic is probably to pile on the missiles and lasers in the hope of temporarily shutting down the Starburst's meson screen so it can then be shot up by all three of the RCN's 'large' ships.
Even more hopeless than I remembered!
I think though, that BR has a rule that the meson screen value, when subtracted from the firing weapon's damage value, may never reduce the damage value to less than zero, provided it was greater than zero after addition/subtraction of target size.
So, the SEH would still suffer temporary crits from the Manticore meson guns.
I think though, that BR has a rule that the meson screen value, when subtracted from the firing weapon's damage value, may never reduce the damage value to less than zero, provided it was greater than zero after addition/subtraction of target size.
So, the SEH would still suffer temporary crits from the Manticore meson guns.
It can't reduce the damage to less than zero, but this is the step before that - between hitting and dealing damage is the screen save. A meson save means the hit is a miss. From the Damage section: "Note that the meson screen value is only subtracted from the weapon damage value on a failed meson screen task attempt. On a successful task, the meson gun shot misses and causes no damage at all."
The Starburst is quite unlikely to fail the screen save, even with a crap crew and outstanding hits against it by a Manticore.
Yes, as I said at the outset (or meant to say, anyway!), this is essentially a suicide mission for the Manticores in every game I've played of this scenario. You're hoping for an Outstanding hit at Close range combined with poor luck for the Starburst screen save.
Basically, you've got to use the Lancer DD against the Starburst as its the only ship you've got that can really hurt it (or the Rapier for that matter).
The rest of the RCN force has to be trying to attrit the Solee smaller ships, trying to reach 50 VPs, while somehow avoiding losses.
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