Confused

[Mark Morgan]

gee almost sorry I brought the subject upp

oh well I have a jistory with finding my way to fault lines" in strutures I should not complain it has kept my one consulting bussness IN bussness for 20 years and earned me a decent living that being finding confusing and tangled points in the world arround and find the threads to pull on ot Traveller

 

[Allensh]

I'm not sure that was the plan.. Yes, the CD-ROM release is still the plan. Your mention of house rules being accepted by Marc is a new one to me, but perhaps I missed something before March 2008...



Sadly, the first half of your paragraph is true. In late 2006 and throughout 2007, Marc radically changed T5's vision, dropping the "T4+" (my words) view of development. Probably more significant, Marc did massively underestimate the effort required to develop a new release of Traveller by himself, and when he did get commentary, it broke down into three categories:

1. Too vague to be of use (this sux, drop in the TNE rules)...
2. Personal attacks (this document shows that Marc was never a game designer, but simply edited other peoples work)
3. Not in Marc's vision (Marc, I looked over your short notes, but decided to send you my personal design of the ultimate sci-fi [insert here: robots, fighters, missiles, gun design, et al])

And, yes, this changed in April of 2008, with my proposal of the T5 Private Access Forum here at CotI. I had come to the conclusion that there were significant issues with the direction and progress of the overall T5 effort (most notably to me, important criticisms NOT being passed to Marc), and finally talked to Marc about it (his answer was to make me part of the solution...) o:

So, we chopped the T5 material up into logical sections (starting with Chargen), and began passing that material to those who had paid for T5 already for review. This broke the logjam, and also overcame Marc not getting details on his work problem. Also, in my view, those people who put their money out there deserved something, and making them part of the creative process hopefully did something to partially offset that.

As far as most of the material being written by the volunteers, that's actually NOT the case. Far from it (as some posters will tell you). I've made a few people mad by insisting that Marc's vision drive T5, not volunteer insertions.



And unfortunately, that detail has grown much smaller since April. I'll confess to enforcing a draconian policy of keeping T5 behind the curtain. So most of what your reading outside the private area is from someone who walked away a long time ago.



Yes, Marc could have a tragic accident tomorrow, but I am confident that Marc will finish the T5 core, and probably more. My view is, if you are curious, if you don't have a belief that Marc personally insulted you sometime in the storied past, and if you would like to perhaps have an influence in the direction T5 takes, yes, invest in the T5 CD. Otherwise, you can buy it when it is released in print form.

But, by all means, look at the Mongoose offerings -- there's much to like there... and as far as past versions, I'd recommend CT or MegaTraveller.

In the past I was rather adamantly anti-T5, partially due to the quashing of a version of the game that I personally felt was my absolute dream version of Traveller. My attitude has softened somewhat, and I would love to be involved in helping with T5...

...but I can't afford to pay money for something that isn't out yet, I do not currently have a PayPal account (for numerous reasons), and I am happy with Mongoose Traveller. When the CD actually comes out I may then make a determination about buying it.

Allen

 

[dean]

If you want to talk "fine print" I've long had the feeling "playtest" is not the proper term for what is being done there either. Something more like proofing and editing is the impression I've been getting, from an outside perspective.

Well, I have access, and as each section is released, you are free to proof it and post comments, and also use the sections to play the game. You know, create characters, equip them, build a ship, and start adventuring.

Not that I have the time for any of that.

Dean

 

[far-trader]

Well, I have access, and as each section is released, you are free to proof it and post comments, and also use the sections to play the game. You know, create characters, equip them, build a ship, and start adventuring.

That sounds a little more promising than the earlier takes on it I was hearing. Thanks for the update.

 

[DonM]

Thanks, Dean... It sounds better coming from a forum member than it does from me.

But, to the earlier comments, in full disclosure, if all T4 was to you was the "XD6 roll low" task mechanism, then you won't like T5 either. From a skill/task perspective, T5 is T4 without the half dice and with the "this is hard" fix.

Funny thing is, that's the one part of T4 I didn't have a problem with. If you want to fudge the dice (that's what you mean by referee flexibility, right? Giving the player a success or failure they didn't roll?), keep your mods secret. Is there a reason you can't just say, "Just roll 8 dice and tell me the result", and then tell your players the result you were going to give them anyway?

And I was expecting more love for the 2D from S4.

So, if the diceology is what you hated about T4, then flip my statement above; T5 is exactly T4+ to you...

But I do like that word. "When I grow up, I want to be a Diceologist".

 

[aramis]

From my point of view, the diceology was the definitive problem mechanic of T4.

The dice methodology didn't work for me nor for *any* member of my then Ref+8p group. It still didn't work with the TIH fix (which Marc released within 6 months of T4's release), and the half-die wasn't an issue (of the 9 of us, 7 liked Hero System, while, prior to that campaign, only 5 had Traveller experience.).

It was the fundamental issues of dice by difficulty (instead of dice by skill) and the psychology of Roll Low that made T4 unpleasant. An isue which made Alternity a no-go for us, too. (And also TFFV.)

When we switched to a 3d roll high (variant of the MT task system), we enjoyed it a lot more. We noticed the mechanics less and moved the story more.

I might get T5 when released, to pull other mechanics. But I'm unwiling to get involved in a playtest when the singularly most frequently use mechanic is one that I find inherently flawed at a fundamental level.

 

[Gruffty]

I came to T4 long after it stopped being published and must admit to never actually having run a game using the T4 dice mechanic. However, I *have* tried the T4 dice mechanic outside of play/a real game, whilst messing about with the task system to get familiar with it.

It is, IMO, a clunky, awkward, difficult and counter-intuitive system. I'm disappointed that Marc has gone with a roll low, multiple dice system for T5 but, hey-ho, off we go.

So, from my perspective, whether T5 uses a "roll low, handsful of dice" mechanic or not is irrelevant. I won't be using the T5 task system, but I *will* be using all of the other bits of T5 that I find to be of use.

 

[DonM]

It tops out at 8 dice. I've played Champions for years, that's handfuls of dice. I guess it's your perspective.

But I do have to ask everyone participating in the discussion, what's the preferred task system (from the below choices):

CT/MT/MGT: 2D6 Roll High.
T4/T5: XD6 Roll Low.
GT: 3D6 Roll Low.
TNE: D20 Roll Low.
T20: D20 Roll High.

Is 2D RH still the system of preference?

 

[far-trader]

2D6 Roll High

Traveller just seems "right" as 2D6 (but I never minded D20 either) and Roll High is definitely the most logical. Bonuses are "+" and penalties are "-" in Roll High. I agree also that anything that makes quickly calculating the approximate odds of success are a problem for refs who like to game loose and free of looking up every task in some massive list. I could live with almost any #D but XD never felt right.

 

[Supplement Four]

And I was expecting more love for the 2D from S4.

I actually converted and played a the end of a long campaign (started with MT, finished with T4) using T4 rules. I played, fairly intensely (we played about every two or three weeks back then...this was the early/mid 90's).

From that actual gaming experience, I can vouch for what Aramis says.

The T4 roll low system is not a good system to use in an rpg. Using it removes some important tools the GM has to use in running his game.

Suspension of disbelief. Drama. Mystery. All of that can be damaged with the T4 mechanic. It focuses too much on dice mechanics and not enough on the game/story.

From my point of view, the diceology was the definitive problem mechanic of T4.

Remember. These comments are coming from active Traveller players. Will and I run game regularly. We're in the trenches, playing the game. We're not armchair readers who never play an only like to diddle with Traveller.

We play.

 

[Antony]

Well I have played and run most versions of Traveller, the exceptions being T20 and Mongoose. Of the ones I used the TNE task system was the easiest and T4s the worst, in fact here T4 almost singlehandedly killed Traveller, many tried it all stopped playing it. But they did not go back to CT or MT. It was the fractional dice that people here disliked about T4. (That plus all the poor editing in T4 materials of course)

I'm hoping T5 will be better but I would also like it to come out sometime this century.
To create a perfect system I'm sure you will need infinite time. The world wide economic downturn is not going to help either.

 

[DonM]

Well, when the definitive T5 edition is published, I'm sure you will find pieces to drop into your game. Since 1990, I don't know that I've played a campaign that used one consistent ruleset (my own Trav campaigns have been Mega + High Guard + Snapshot).

But then, T5 isn't finished, so those who have pre-orded it, and have been following this discussion, test the heck out of the skills mechanics and provide us some serious feedback.

 

[Gruffty]

It tops out at 8 dice. I've played Champions for years, that's handfuls of dice. I guess it's your perspective.

Agreed, it is my perspective, and it is also my preference for simplicity where ever possible. Handsful of dice doesn't fit my internal model of a "simple but effective" RPG mechanic; YMMV, FWIW, etc YYY.

But I do have to ask everyone participating in the discussion, what's the preferred task system (from the below choices):

CT/MT/MGT: 2D6 Roll High.
T4/T5: XD6 Roll Low.
GT: 3D6 Roll Low.
TNE: D20 Roll Low.
T20: D20 Roll High.

Is 2D RH still the system of preference?

2D roll high, of course

 

[Andrew Boulton]

2d roll high.

 

[dean]

Can't say as I have an opinion.

I like the 2D high system fine, but I don't have a lot of exposure to the other methods discussed.

I really don't understand how being told to roll 4D or 6D would matter, so long as the results are fair and predictable, but again I have never used them.

Dean

 

[aramis]

It tops out at 8 dice. I've played Champions for years, that's handfuls of dice. I guess it's your perspective.

But I do have to ask everyone participating in the discussion, what's the preferred task system (from the below choices):

CT/MT/MGT: 2D6 Roll High.
T4/T5: XD6 Roll Low.
GT: 3D6 Roll Low.
TNE: D20 Roll Low.
T20: D20 Roll High.

Is 2D RH still the system of preference?

I'm not picky about how many dice, provided it's Roll High, and doesn't change dice with difficulty.

For T4 skill levels, my preference would be 3d roll high, and 5 points per level. With TIH.

Heck, I'm not averse to 1d per skill level, roll high...

I really don't understand how being told to roll 4D or 6D would matter, so long as the results are fair and predictable, but again I have never used them.

Because, in T4, you had to tell the players how many dice to roll based upon the difficulty of the task, they always knew the difficulty of the task.
Further, you can't do an "open roll"... "Roll and tell me how hard you make" with the T4 mechanics other than by rolling 1D at a time.
Additionally, it meant a lot more rolling again due to having rolled the wrong number of dice.

Mind you, I'm currently running Burning Empires... I've had to roll as many as 17 dice... it's not the handfuls that are the issue... it's how you have to figure out how many to roll. When a game ties the dice rolled to the character's skill, the player can readily figure out how many dice to roll without knowing the difficulty. When the dice thrown are by difficulty, however, it immediately reveals to the player how difficult the task was. For some, that's a non-issue, but for others, that can be a major issue.

Now, for many people, especially those in podunk towns that the only dice are 18+mm d6's sold in five-packs, usually in a large box (Yatzee), more than a few dice (5 is about the largest comfortable throw for most people in those sizes) requires additional paraphernalia (specifically, a dice cup). It's generally easiest if the players are either using a single entry from the sheet, or if they always roll the same number and side of dice.

 

[fridge]

Hiding Difficulty

If the number of dice reveals the difficulty, and the GM does not want the players to know this, the GM could roll some of the dice behind the screen, like an Uncertain task. The sneaky GM could always use two different coloured dice and only use one colour, or not use any - relying solely on the player's roll.

 

[aramis]

Fridge: that is deceiving the players. ANd it often fails, as it
(1) requires a screen
(2) the dice thrown can often still be counted by the players.

Only one dice by difficulty game has had significant commercial success: The Fantasy Trip.

 

[dean]

Because, in T4, you had to tell the players how many dice to roll based upon the difficulty of the task, they always knew the difficulty of the task.
Further, you can't do an "open roll"... "Roll and tell me how hard you make" with the T4 mechanics other than by rolling 1D at a time.
Additionally, it meant a lot more rolling again due to having rolled the wrong number of dice.

Mind you, I'm currently running Burning Empires... I've had to roll as many as 17 dice... it's not the handfuls that are the issue... it's how you have to figure out how many to roll. When a game ties the dice rolled to the character's skill, the player can readily figure out how many dice to roll without knowing the difficulty. When the dice thrown are by difficulty, however, it immediately reveals to the player how difficult the task was. For some, that's a non-issue, but for others, that can be a major issue.

Now, for many people, especially those in podunk towns that the only dice are 18+mm d6's sold in five-packs, usually in a large box (Yatzee), more than a few dice (5 is about the largest comfortable throw for most people in those sizes) requires additional paraphernalia (specifically, a dice cup). It's generally easiest if the players are either using a single entry from the sheet, or if they always roll the same number and side of dice.

Ah, makes much more sense now. I can see where some people would be put off by that. I'll have to try it and see how it goes.

 

[fridge]

What type of tasks would GMs see as requiring an unknown Difficulty?