Confused

[DonM]

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying, Rob, but to break away from CT's task resolution is to break away from CT, as opposed to produce a version of CT.

Task resolution is the center of a role-playing game's rules set because it defines how the game gets played as opposed to merely read. Just look at people's strong responses in this thread.

Except that T5 is NOT a version of CT, and (at least I, and I'm sure Marc, and from what I've seen, many of our forum members, would say) T5 is NOT a version of T4 either. It's not T4.1.

T5 is a new version. It uses a version of the T4 skill mechanic because that's where Marc's head is at (Is that Marc's design? I don't know. It is where his head is at. Those could be different.) I can say that the ACS ship mechanism is certainly NOT QSDS. And he's at least listened to Ken Burnside on some issues regarding ship design. I respect Ken a lot -- may not agree with him on some things, but he's thought more about those issues than anyone else I've spoken to face-to-face, and done the research. Marc might not use any of his suggestions, but Marc is researching and listening.

T5 is still in Traveller's future, but I think I can publicly say it's much closer today, on Thanksgiving weekend 2008, than it was in March of this year, or September of 2007. And what T5 can become now is quite different from the T5 that would have been in 1997 or 2004. And I believe that wait has worked out for the best.

 

[robject]

Hey... I said nothing about your ability to be a moderator. I said a lot about your ability to be a jerk. I'm a paid professional in the field (seriously: it's my real life job), and you are way too nice a guy.

And I tend to be a bit of an appeaser. Not a good combo for managing people.

 

[robject]

... what T5 can become now is quite different from the T5 that would have been in 1997 or 2004. And I believe that wait has worked out for the best.

I agree. From the beginning Marc wanted to do something familiar yet new, but only within the past two years has been able to pull it together into something cohesive, familiar, yet new.

 

[robject]

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying, Rob, but to break away from CT's task resolution is to break away from CT, as opposed to produce a version of CT.

Task resolution is the center of a role-playing game's rules set because it defines how the game gets played as opposed to merely read. Just look at people's strong responses in this thread.

I'm assuming that we're talking about Mongoose Traveller.

Point granted. I'll say "compatibility" then... because if everything else interworks with CT tasks, then MGT could be seen as a (fairly comprehensive) supplement, or drop-in modular replacements for everything including the task system.

Now, regarding T5. As Don said, this is a new thing, but anyone who played CT or MT will see what's going on and, for each chapter, go "aha". As Don said, it's new. Someone asked me how much is rehash, and I am finding it difficult to find things that are verbatim from an earlier version, except fundamental assumptions (jump lasts one week) ... but even then ...


Anyway. I'll go ya one further: it's not that the Task System is central (it is), but that Combat must use it effectively. Other actions are just as or more important than combat, but combat's often the first exposure to the task system.

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

Except that T5 is NOT a version of CT, and (at least I, and I'm sure Marc, and from what I've seen, many of our forum members, would say) T5 is NOT a version of T4 either. It's not T4.1.

T5 is a new version. It uses a version of the T4 skill mechanic because that's where Marc's head is at (Is that Marc's design? I don't know. It is where his head is at. Those could be different.) I can say that the ACS ship mechanism is certainly NOT QSDS. And he's at least listened to Ken Burnside on some issues regarding ship design. I respect Ken a lot -- may not agree with him on some things, but he's thought more about those issues than anyone else I've spoken to face-to-face, and done the research. Marc might not use any of his suggestions, but Marc is researching and listening.

I don't mean to belabor the point, Don, but a game that uses T4 for task resolution with minor modifications is precisely that: T4.1.

It doesn't matter what vehicle design rules the game adds to that. You don't play the game using design sequences. You play it using task resolution.

 

[aramis]

Actually, it would be 4.2, since 4.1 was the later printing of t4... which at least had the errata changes published, even if it was not itself released, and included the This is Harder Than It Looked rule (Renamed in t5 drafts as This Is Hard), and eliminated the half-die.

 

[Supplement Four]

Hey... I said nothing about your ability to be a moderator. I said a lot about your ability to be a jerk. I'm a paid professional in the field (seriously: it's my real life job), and you are way too nice a guy.

I've been around this forum for quite a while, and I've known Rob over at the TML. I've got to say, Rob is the one Traveller player I've met that I've never seen be a jerk. I include myself in that. I know I've been one from time to time.

But Rob? I know he's probably been one some time in his life, but I've never seen it.

He's one of the nicest people on the net I've ever met.

 

[Supplement Four]

I don't mean to belabor the point, Don, but a game that uses T4 for task resolution with minor modifications is precisely that: T4.1.

Actually, it would be 4.2, since 4.1 was the later printing of t4... which at least had the errata changes published, even if it was not itself released, and included the This is Harder Than It Looked rule (Renamed in t5 drafts as This Is Hard), and eliminated the half-die.

I have to agree with these gentlemen.

If T5 uses a mechanic that is: Roll a number of dice for target or lower; Difficulty determined by the number of dice thrown; Target is Skill + Stat.

Then, the task system used by T5 is T4.x. It's T4's task system with tweaks, and I'm not sure how you could have even said, originally, that T5 no longer resembled T4 in that respect.





New Question, Don...

I'm sure that Marc has seen the dislike of this task system over the years he's been working on T5. He's had to have--there are too many people who dislike the system.

Don, what is Marc's reaction to that dislike of the T4.x dicing system, and what is his reason for sticking with it?

 

[DonM]

I have to agree with these gentlemen.

If T5 uses a mechanic that is: Roll a number of dice for target or lower; Difficulty determined by the number of dice thrown; Target is Skill + Stat.

Then, the task system used by T5 is T4.x. It's T4's task system with tweaks, and I'm not sure how you could have even said, originally, that T5 no longer resembled T4 in that respect.

Hmm... my original statement...

In late 2006 and throughout 2007, Marc radically changed T5's vision, dropping the "T4+" (my words) view of development.

...doesn't specifically refer to the task mechanic. My intention was in referring to the overall look and feel of the whole. The drafts I had previously seen were "literally" pages from T4 with changes.

Then several people jumped in with "Oh, did Marc change the task system?" And, reviewing the notes above, I'm still not with you on the hate for the XD6 mechanic. I'll confess that it does seem odd in my head, but now that we've run a couple of test runs here with it (in preparation for a campaign after the first of the year), I kind of like it. It's like the number of dice "feel risky". The more dice I add, the more chances I'm taking. And, if I don't want the players to know the level of risk, I simply designate some dice as Uncertain, and roll them behind the screen.

And the players didn't have an opinion against it either. So we'll give it the full ride test and see what happens. As with the rest of Marc's design, I'm refusing to toss it just because it's Marc's design, like so many seem to be wanting to do.

New Question, Don...

I'm sure that Marc has seen the dislike of this task system over the years he's been working on T5. He's had to have--there are too many people who dislike the system.

Don, what is Marc's reaction to that dislike of the T4.x dicing system, and what is his reason for sticking with it?

Hmm... I'll ask him specifically, but my personal read is that he just likes the mechanic.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

I *think* the probabilities work better.

 

[Tysis]

I do not know for sure but I think the play test forum is Marc's way of keeping interested people involved, and giving him a sounding board and proofreaders as well.

If he started answering questions, I expect that this would consume so much time that it would cut into his design time. We do not know what his personal commitments are outside of T5.

I do have my own questions/gripes/concerns but I will continue to keep them to myself.

In the end, all you can do is decide to spend the money to preorder/buy T5 or not.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

We do not know what his personal commitments are outside of T5.

Counting the money he's getting from MGT?

 

[Gruffty]

Counting the money he's getting from MGT?

<sharp intake of breath> :rofl:

 

[Jamus]

It tops out at 8 dice. I've played Champions for years, that's handfuls of dice. I guess it's your perspective.

But I do have to ask everyone participating in the discussion, what's the preferred task system (from the below choices):

CT/MT/MGT: 2D6 Roll High.

nothing else feels like traveller to me.

 

[Jamus]

I'm assuming that we're talking about Mongoose Traveller.

Its pretty obvious to me, unless I am wrong, that he was talking about T5. If T5 uses the T4 mechanic than I wont be buying it. I have almost every CT book published, most of the MT material and MGT. why would I want yet another system using very bad dice mechanics to rehash what I already own three times over.

 

[Tysis]

Counting the money he's getting from MGT?

One can only hope. If he is making money than that means he may be able to afford a financial commitment to Traveller. Maybe not T5, but in some incarnation.

How many versions of Traveller have died? These deaths were all fiscal in nature; they simply did not make enough money, either through lack of sales or lack of available products.

 

[robject]

Its pretty obvious to me, unless I am wrong, that he was talking about T5.

If so, my apologies. Rhialto had earlier been mentioning both products in the post I responded to.

 

[robject]

If T5 uses the T4 mechanic

(it does)

then I wont be buying it.

(ok)

I have almost every CT book published, most of the MT material and MGT.

Impressive.

why would I want yet another system using very bad dice mechanics to rehash what I already own three times over.

You wouldn't. However, T5 doesn't feel like a rehash to me; it improves on the game and takes it in interesting directions.

I can't remember. How did T4 do personal combat tasks?

 

[Jamus]

At the moment the only T4 books I have on me are emperors arsenal and the aliens book. My T4 rule book is probably packed away.

So T5 will directly compete with Mongoose traveller? I hear alot about how MGT was supposed to be compatible with T5 but if the guys over at MgT had waited on MWM we wouldnt have MgT yet if at all.

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

You know, I somehow doubt a 1000-page PDF that's sold off a website that looks like it was designed in the Bronze Age will compete with a massive book series that's available in actual game stores all over the planet, not to mention amazon.

But, hey.