Communism in space
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Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
It would depend on exactly how much political clout the owner/captain has to get access to spare parts.
Yes.
And watch out for underpaid troops drinking methyl alcohol anti-freeze when they are not paid enough to buy the ethyl alcohol beverages.
Silveroak2
SOC-2
As someone completing an MA in History on the Soviet history (53'-91') I would really love an exception on the modern politics ban(specifically 53'-91'/94) because the post-war USSR was so different from Union under Stalin, and the Khrushchev/ Brezhnev/ Gorby governments.
For now I will avoid discussing my favorite era of Soviet history, and delve into the one sort of under discussion, even though tropes of the post 53' USSR are slipping into the forum (leaky reactors, monuments constructed post 53')
Firstly, in response to the free trader campaign, I believe that there would actually be a considerable capacity for this sort of activity even in a pseudo-Stalinst or, certainly as previously mentioned, a NEP inspired MTU polity. The grey economy was thriving in both the NEP and Stalinist periods, and I can offer a useful historical example, that of the Soviet railway and its enterprising conductors:
Railway conductors travelling along the length and breadth of the Soviet Union had access to many local markets, and were always first to know local prices. They would use this information to either buy locally cheap and then sell higher at a later station where they knew the price for the given good was higher, or simply sell or barter the knowledge to a broker at a different station. That can correspond to a free trader pretty easily, as the crew of potentially a state-owned vessel actually make the majority of their profit off of a smaller amount of goods transported alongside their state mandated cargo. If you're going for a more NEP approach they might not be wholly state owned to begin with, and then they can functionally trade as normal. In a situation like this, knowledge of local markets is the determining factor in profitability, and therefore DMs may be added based on what the crew knows of the local market based off of previous NPC interactions. Also, purchasing not from the state-trade board, but from the grey market and through grey-market brokers may be a fun way to run things, especially if locating the supplier/broker can become a mini-adventure in itself.
To contribute to the aesthetic discussion, here is the positively gorgeous M62 diesel locomotive of the state railways.
As far as the economic discussion is concerned, Soviet style dependability and redundancy could provide a positive modifier to maintenance cost. If playing with Trillion Credit Squadron, HG, or other naval building rules this could affect the overall naval posture. To balance the cheaper maintenance, ships would need to be ordered in larger batches, and newer versions would have to be by% iterative designs. Prototype vessels would not gain the maintenance bonus, only mass-manufactured vessels would. Under these conditions a 10% bonus could be applied. For a further 10% bonus, you can start risking the vessel's integrity and then we get into risking a disaster every 6 months. On a 12+ the ship suffers a catastrophic issue and takes a given amount of damage.
For now I will avoid discussing my favorite era of Soviet history, and delve into the one sort of under discussion, even though tropes of the post 53' USSR are slipping into the forum (leaky reactors, monuments constructed post 53')
Firstly, in response to the free trader campaign, I believe that there would actually be a considerable capacity for this sort of activity even in a pseudo-Stalinst or, certainly as previously mentioned, a NEP inspired MTU polity. The grey economy was thriving in both the NEP and Stalinist periods, and I can offer a useful historical example, that of the Soviet railway and its enterprising conductors:
Railway conductors travelling along the length and breadth of the Soviet Union had access to many local markets, and were always first to know local prices. They would use this information to either buy locally cheap and then sell higher at a later station where they knew the price for the given good was higher, or simply sell or barter the knowledge to a broker at a different station. That can correspond to a free trader pretty easily, as the crew of potentially a state-owned vessel actually make the majority of their profit off of a smaller amount of goods transported alongside their state mandated cargo. If you're going for a more NEP approach they might not be wholly state owned to begin with, and then they can functionally trade as normal. In a situation like this, knowledge of local markets is the determining factor in profitability, and therefore DMs may be added based on what the crew knows of the local market based off of previous NPC interactions. Also, purchasing not from the state-trade board, but from the grey market and through grey-market brokers may be a fun way to run things, especially if locating the supplier/broker can become a mini-adventure in itself.
To contribute to the aesthetic discussion, here is the positively gorgeous M62 diesel locomotive of the state railways.
As far as the economic discussion is concerned, Soviet style dependability and redundancy could provide a positive modifier to maintenance cost. If playing with Trillion Credit Squadron, HG, or other naval building rules this could affect the overall naval posture. To balance the cheaper maintenance, ships would need to be ordered in larger batches, and newer versions would have to be by% iterative designs. Prototype vessels would not gain the maintenance bonus, only mass-manufactured vessels would. Under these conditions a 10% bonus could be applied. For a further 10% bonus, you can start risking the vessel's integrity and then we get into risking a disaster every 6 months. On a 12+ the ship suffers a catastrophic issue and takes a given amount of damage.
BRJN
SOC-12
I do not know the year or era this statistic refers to, but at one time 50% of the USSR's grain crops were grown on 1% of its agricultural land - privately owned gardens. The other 50% was from the collective farms that encompassed 99% of the land.
This fact could be used to challenge the ingenuity of inexperienced PCs who think a "garden crop" surely would be only a ton or so of mixed vegetables ... And discover more like a silo-full of grain is waiting for them.
This fact could be used to challenge the ingenuity of inexperienced PCs who think a "garden crop" surely would be only a ton or so of mixed vegetables ... And discover more like a silo-full of grain is waiting for them.
Silveroak2
SOC-2
Yeah that is certainly something that requires a citation, just by the numbers it looks like propaganda. Not saying collective farms worked, but I doubt 1% of arable farmed land was turning out 50% of the USSR's grain, especially considering the Soviet Union was often actually importing grain. The Civil War and the GPW/WWII took a huge toll on the Soviet economy. That itself could also represent a nifty part of a trader campaign, trying to source bulk goods from other polities to resupply the space Soviet.
Silveroak2
SOC-2
1/4 is much more believable in 2% of arable land. Though post 91 sources are ideal, we really learned a lot from the Soviets when the archives finally opened in 92. It is also worth noting that The Russians is a popular history (I mean, it even refers to the very multi-ethnic Soviet Union as "the Russians" in order to be more catchy.
Some more Traveller related observations
-The crew have to deal with collective farming die-hards that refuse to accept help. (smuggling mission basically)
-The crew find a very productive private agro-plantation totally off the charts, and all of its records have been doctored to present it as a collective farm. The travellers then have the opportunity to keep the secret of the state or unmask it, which might cause greater instability.
-The crew discover that the regime recognizes the failure of collective programs, but is grappling with the ideological dilemma of what to do about it. A: Face reality and admit the failure. B: Totally cover it up C: Partly admit the failure and introduce gradual reform D: Attempt to improve the collective farms' output at any expense.
Some more Traveller related observations
-The crew have to deal with collective farming die-hards that refuse to accept help. (smuggling mission basically)
-The crew find a very productive private agro-plantation totally off the charts, and all of its records have been doctored to present it as a collective farm. The travellers then have the opportunity to keep the secret of the state or unmask it, which might cause greater instability.
-The crew discover that the regime recognizes the failure of collective programs, but is grappling with the ideological dilemma of what to do about it. A: Face reality and admit the failure. B: Totally cover it up C: Partly admit the failure and introduce gradual reform D: Attempt to improve the collective farms' output at any expense.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
IIRC, the extremely productive land was small plots set aside for individual use on sovkhoses, not private gardens.
It was fairly well known, but I doubt completely accurate statistics exist.
P.S. Please use the IMGW="800" tag instead of the IMG tag when posting huge pictures. D.S.
It was fairly well known, but I doubt completely accurate statistics exist.
P.S. Please use the IMGW="800" tag instead of the IMG tag when posting huge pictures. D.S.
BRJN
SOC-12
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Communism seems to be an imposed ideology, whereas communeism may be an organic socio-economic phenomenon where sharing resources is a survival requirement, which I suspect could take place within a spacegoing gypsyesque community.
Community is a show I intend to get around to watching some day.
Community is a show I intend to get around to watching some day.
KyleLittle
SOC-6
Silveroak2, your anorak is showing.
Silveroak2
SOC-2
@KyleLittle
I've spent almost my entire adult life researching the former USSR, so that makes sense. Their policy failures and policy successes are very exciting when contrasted with, say Canadian or American policy choices at the same time. More ideology, less pragmatism= interesting political experiments. (thats not to say American policy was not blinded by ideology, it's more that I find the American blinders less interesting).
Condottiere brings up a good point. If we widen our net beyond state-socialism (i.e the sort of political axis the Soviets built their society upon, one which was imposed) to other forms of communistic or socialistic societies we can get some further nifty Traveller outputs
Anarcho-syndicalists and anarcho-communists during the Spanish Civil War might be a useful touchstone for example. I could see a single-system polity "ruled" by many autonomous communes that still field a collective military as within the bounds of Traveller's systems.
Each city or each district of each city fields direct-democracy councils which host meetings where the local policy is determined. Each council may submit suggestions to other councils and for all other councils to review. Therefore, they could in theory mount a collective defense, and even a trade policy with other worlds.
I've spent almost my entire adult life researching the former USSR, so that makes sense. Their policy failures and policy successes are very exciting when contrasted with, say Canadian or American policy choices at the same time. More ideology, less pragmatism= interesting political experiments. (thats not to say American policy was not blinded by ideology, it's more that I find the American blinders less interesting).
Condottiere brings up a good point. If we widen our net beyond state-socialism (i.e the sort of political axis the Soviets built their society upon, one which was imposed) to other forms of communistic or socialistic societies we can get some further nifty Traveller outputs
Anarcho-syndicalists and anarcho-communists during the Spanish Civil War might be a useful touchstone for example. I could see a single-system polity "ruled" by many autonomous communes that still field a collective military as within the bounds of Traveller's systems.
Each city or each district of each city fields direct-democracy councils which host meetings where the local policy is determined. Each council may submit suggestions to other councils and for all other councils to review. Therefore, they could in theory mount a collective defense, and even a trade policy with other worlds.
I once did some research on the Spanish Civil War when in college, and read a thick book that was all recollections of survivors of the war. One chapter was the story told by a Catalunian anarchist, who went over the effort to stop using "evil money." They actually broke in to the safes in businesses and banks and burned all the cash, then tried to make society run on barter!
He was on the committee of workers who took over his workplace, a garment factory specializing in socks. Most of his story consisted of him describing the difficulties they encountered in this socialist, anarchist barter economy. The workers were paid in socks and all the suppliers, except the electric utility. Despite being taken over by its workers as well, the utility flat out refused to accept socks as payment; they had to purchase fuel in cash.
After a few weeks the workers and suppliers began to demand cash as well. The grocers, bakers, and other "suppliers" to the workers took socks as payment for a week or two, but then started demanding cash as well. They didn't need any more socks for a long time, and didn't want to spend their time trying to find someone they could trade socks to for what they needed. The interviewee ended up lamenting that despite their ernest, genuine effort to replace capitalism they still ended up "enslaved" to that evil, evil currency.
He was on the committee of workers who took over his workplace, a garment factory specializing in socks. Most of his story consisted of him describing the difficulties they encountered in this socialist, anarchist barter economy. The workers were paid in socks and all the suppliers, except the electric utility. Despite being taken over by its workers as well, the utility flat out refused to accept socks as payment; they had to purchase fuel in cash.
After a few weeks the workers and suppliers began to demand cash as well. The grocers, bakers, and other "suppliers" to the workers took socks as payment for a week or two, but then started demanding cash as well. They didn't need any more socks for a long time, and didn't want to spend their time trying to find someone they could trade socks to for what they needed. The interviewee ended up lamenting that despite their ernest, genuine effort to replace capitalism they still ended up "enslaved" to that evil, evil currency.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
One reason money was invented, it easier to comprehend as a measure of value and exchange.
I recall comedies where the rural doctor was paid in eggs; and rather real life situations during wartime where farmers actually had to, since either there wasn't enough liquidity, or money had no real value.
Money is pretty much faith based.
I recall comedies where the rural doctor was paid in eggs; and rather real life situations during wartime where farmers actually had to, since either there wasn't enough liquidity, or money had no real value.
Money is pretty much faith based.
Rural veterinarians in Alaska and Canada STILL sometimes get paid in barter.
Dr. Michelle Oakley, DVM, has commented on her show about this.
The late Dr. Del Carter, DVM, of Eagle River, AK, once treated a cat in exchange for a rack of moose ribs.
Silveroak2
SOC-2
So basically this brings us to "how to Deal with Barter Economies:Traveller Edition"
There are plenty of fun scenarios we could have here/ Travellers arrive on planet with a shipment of say, textiles (Cr.3,000) and finds out that they can't actually exchange them for currency.
There are plenty of fun scenarios we could have here/ Travellers arrive on planet with a shipment of say, textiles (Cr.3,000) and finds out that they can't actually exchange them for currency.
*** Q1. How many kinds of socialism do you reckon there are? I have read a lot on the topic and still feel unsure of this. ***
*** Q2. How many kinds of those socialism types do not eventually turn into state socialism? Do you have any examples, please? ***
I have lived in a lot of places that have governments that self identify as socialist governments and I can't honestly think of a one that didn't end its time as a form of state socialism.
Shalom,
M.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Here is an alternative way a command economy might have worked. We'll likely never know, and it would require truly motivated/skilled people at the core of the system using this, but it definitely presaged the corporate ops room of the last 20 years and might have bypassed a lot of the party politics in the name of productivity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn
Hooked into a feedback system from every village and honest practitioners at the core, might work.
Along the same lines, perhaps a modification of the Zho setup with psionics might also work, it's about 3/4 there anyway.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn
Hooked into a feedback system from every village and honest practitioners at the core, might work.
Along the same lines, perhaps a modification of the Zho setup with psionics might also work, it's about 3/4 there anyway.
"The only difference between socialism and communism is the size of the planning committee" - Nathan Brazil AKA me.
:rofl:
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