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Colony requirements

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Originally posted by Drakon:
Not sure that counts as "unfair" The goal is (for me) to find the things needed to make a self sufficient colony. The reason I have advocated going low tech, is that it is more self sufficient to maintain.
This is fairly true; if your goal is to create a self sufficient colony, low tech requires both a smaller population base and a much smaller initial investment.

However, the result will be unacceptable for people accustomed to the standard of living of a high tech world. Most people won't tolerate a 99% reduction in income...
 
Now, how does all this relate to how the Imperium was settled?
10,000 worlds settled in about 3,000 years means about 3 per year.
I see waves of expansion as areas are explored.
 
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Maghwi:
Again, you bring your hi-tech solar powered hand tools (by Craftsman
) or whatever and you mow down the nearby forrest. Eventually they will fail, but again, you use them to build your infrastructure. They are disposable.
If heavily used, a few years at best.
</font>[/QUOTE]I guess some people must buy cheap tools and leave them out in the rain. I have a contractor friend that I called about the tool issue. He uses most of his power tools daily. Some of his power tools are 10 or more years old. The expectation is that most of them will last another 10 with light maintence. TL 12 tools can probably be made to last even longer under tougher conditions.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"Let's stop here again. Yes, alcohol engines can be efficient, but you won't be building any at TL4."

From the CT: TL 4 ciria 1860 to 1900.
</font>[/QUOTE]Error in assumptions here. I was subconsciously thinking in terms of GURPS TLs, which makes TL 4 start more around 1700. In any case, you're not going to have TL 4 without a huge colony, TL 1 is more likely.

Basically, without the ability to make high quality steel, which requires a full-scale foundry and extensive mining operations, you aren't going to be making engines that are safe, reliable, and reasonable in weight.
</font>[/QUOTE]<sigh> I'm done. I would guess the people of the colony will sit on their thumbs all day, waiting for something to break so they can chuck it into a landfill with all their other broken things and wait for the inevatable slide to TL 0. The human race is doomed. :eek:


edited to fix horrible formatting problem
 
vegascat wrote:

"Now, how does all this relate to how the Imperium was settled? 10,000 worlds settled in about 3,000 years means about 3 per year. I see waves of expansion as areas are explored."


Mr. Cat,

Sorry, no. The time period is far more than 3000 years and the number of systems is far less. Most of the region known as the Third Imperium in 5700 CE* was settled far before the Third Imperium existed and not every system should be counted.

Fisrt, the time period:

- The Vilani began interstellar colonization by STL craft around 4800 BCE(1) and jump drive around 4700 BCE. They actually stopped any further official colonization about 1000 CE(2).

- The Zhos began interstellar colonization by jump drive around 900 BCE.

- The Hiver's began with their first, non-standard jump drive around 180 BCE.

- The K'Kree began around 400 CE.

- The Vargr began around 700 CE.

So, using the Vilani's Ziru Sirka(3) as a yardstick, the region the Third Imperium is on has been actively settled for over 10,400 years.

Next, not every settled system should be counted as a 'colony', most are little more the 57th Century truck stops set up to exploit certain resources or for various other economic/political/social reasons. IMHO, only hi-pop worlds should count. The reason being they number less than 10% of the Imperial total while holding over 90% of the Imperial population.

Thus we get 1000 worlds over 10,000 years.


Sincerely,
Larsen

1 - In a bow to political and cultural sensitivity, I'm using the UN supported equivalents to AD and BC; CE, or Common Era, and BCE, Before Common Era.

2 - See above.

3 - The Ziru Sirka extended further coreward than the Third Imperium does, but the Imperium extends a bit further rinward than the ZS did. For the sake of argument, I'm calling the differences equal. Look at the size of the ZS some day and imagine they did it all with just jump2.
 
Maghwi sighed:

"I'm done. I would guess the people of the colony will sit on their thumbs all day, waiting for something to break so they can chuck it into a landfill with all their other broken things and wait for the inevatable slide to TL 0. The human race is doomed."


Mr. Maghwi,

Now now, there's no need to give up just because we gave you a BIG bite of a reality sandwich. ;) There's far, far, FAR more to technology and production than you can see from your cubicle in the IT department.

Just like the ocean of air you live at the bottom of and rarely, if ever, are aware of, you also live smack dab in an immense, interconnected web of production. Countless goods, services, parts, tools, materials, and so forth are created, transported, and used 24/7 quite literally beneath your notice to support the way you eat, live, work, and play. Because it is all so seamless, so far beneath your 'radar', you believe it all can be so easily replaced. Deep down inside, you believe that most of it doesn't exist at all! Most of this stuff 'just happens'.

The next time you tap a keyboard or thumb through a tech manual to 'administer' that 'network', step back and try to imagine all the work that went into making that single key or printing that single page. Then imagine all the work that occurred to support that work. It quite truly is mind boggling. Next time you're filling your gas tank, look at all the items on the Quik-E-Mart shelves, look at the packaging, imagine the trnasportation. Just think...

Ask you friend just what 'light maintenance' means with regards to his tools. Rust-proofing oils? O-rings? Filters? Lubricants? Do you honestly think a small colony can turn out viton o-rings? Also, how are his tools powered? Electricity? Pneumatics? Can our colony provide him the generator he needs? Or the compressor? Or keep both fixed? Or supplied?

The people of our proposed 'self sufficient' colony will not be sitting on their thumbs all day 'cause they'll be too busy working. Most of them and most of their time will be involoved in food production. Why? Because they haven't the bodies necessary to support the techno-production web necessary to sustain mechanized argiculture [whether they use geneered 'Santa Claus' crops(1) or not].

The only network administrator in our colony of ~50,000 souls will be the fellow who administors the network of rat traps. The other kind of network administrator is a luxury that the colony can't afford. After all, we gotta keep those silos vermin free and save the grain. LANs, WANs, and all the rest in those landscaped office parks will have to wait.


Sincerely,
Larsen

1 - Genneered crops will help somewhat. They still need to be sown, cared for, harvested, and transported to where they are consumed. There aren't going to be any hotdog trees growing in the wild for passers-by to pick lunch from.
 
Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
1 - Genneered crops will help somewhat. They still need to be sown, cared for, harvested, and transported to where they are consumed. There aren't going to be any hotdog trees growing in the wild for passers-by to pick lunch from.
Although you probably will have feral food crops as a backup. If you geneer them, they might even be relatively productive. And the bunnyoids that coexist with them are a handy source of protein.

Historically, some gathering and hunting societies seem to have managed some reasonable population densities where there was a reliable and abundant food source. Examples include: certain coastal areas, with lots of shellfish etc., as well as areas covered by wild wheat in the Middle East.

The latter were especially important, since the centuries or millenia where humans were living in proximity to wheat seems to have been a key step towards agriculture.

While present day feral species are typically less productive than their domesticated equivalents, the gap could potentially be reduced through genetic engineering.

Of course, these "crops" will still need to be gathered, processed, cooked and so on. They may be quite some distance away from your main settlements, especially if you want to locate them in areas where the growing season is different from your main settlement. In other words, they are a cheap lunch, not a free lunch.

And, incidentally, colonies that aren't self-sufficient, are high-tech, and all that stuff can make use of this kind of thing too. They have all the advantages of the "self-sufficient" colony, without the self-inflicted disadvantages.

Alan B
 
Originally posted by Maghwi:
<sigh> I'm done. I would guess the people of the colony will sit on their thumbs all day, waiting for something to break so they can chuck it into a landfill with all their other broken things and wait for the inevatable slide to TL 0. The human race is doomed.
Well, if the human race is dependent on pop-3 colony worlds to sustain it, yep, it's probably doomed. However, colonies can grow, and there's no need to assume a disaster at home; given time and trade, a colony can eventually evolve to be able to survive on its own, with a respectable technical base. It's just going to be pretty old, with a population rating of 7+, by the time that happens.
 
guys just a slightly off topic, there is a PBEM game SuperNova: Rise of the Empire (SN:ROTE) at:

http://www.rollingthunder.com/supernova/SNFTP.htm

this is the FTP site, that has links to all the other game areas and intel as well too. There is a BBS game player board as well too at:

http://rollingthundergames.ipbhost.com/index.php?act=idx

Anyone can read, one must be a member to post.

Now basically you set up a race in that game (open ended Empire builder, runs every 2 wks, and then you decide what to do. Build up your empire, explore, colonize other worlds and etc. Have a look at the game, I have been playing since it started 1.3 yrs back (about 33 turns or so), and I have been doing alot of exploring and have only just encountered one other player. Note there are alot of players in the evergrowing game but all newer players are added to the other most edge of the game area as it expands. Also it appears that each PC empires are like 7-9 systems apart in multiple directions, so contact is a slow process. Plus the tech tree is HUGE, and choosing what direction or paths to take for your empire can be fun. Have a look and if you want a heads up or some help in making best choises in starting a new race, just ask me.
 
Pre post disclaimer; I pretty much only work with GDW TNE though I do own CT and MT.

Self sufficient colonies? I think some people out there have some widely divergent views of just what "colony" means. Personally I don't think a "colony" will be "Independant" from it's homeworld for a very long time ie a century atleast. For those that argue for a self sufficient colony it seems to me that you are more arguing for an "Independant" colony. So what do you need for that? I'd say, in any TU, a fleet of several Merchant ships of atleast TL 10.

In GDW TNE game terms extended system generation

" Colony(Co): If subordinant world government 6 and population 5+ "

This is merely and insystem colony! Next step in extended system generation

" Subordinant Tech Level "

Subs TL will be one less than Homeworld unless sub has, a Mil base, Naval base or research lab in which case use homeworld TL.

Now lets look at who or what is capable of setting up a colony. IMO it has to be some government, organisation, or MegaCorp, that has atleast TL 9 just for their starships to get there.(I'm assuming not an insystem colony here but even so...) Lower TL worlds may want to do it but where will they get the ships? Imperialines?
Tukera Freight Lines? I wouldn't think they would move away from their trade route for the Church of Cousin Marriage (Incidentally I'd love to use these guys in my campaign they just wouldn't go to a non populated world but an unsettled area of another populated world). So this brings us back to the big bucks arguement in favour of Hi tech.
Who goes? Ok so the Church of Cousin Marriage doesn't like their homeworlds restrictive Government policy of no cousin marriage. So sure they may want to leave their TL 9+ society, but to go to TL 3 utopia Hmmmmmn I'm not so sure. Why their TL 9 society you ask see above who can do it I answer. TL 3 utopia? As other's have posted
TL 3 agriculture is incredibly labour intensive all the colonists would do is tend to a very wide variety of crops all day every day 24/7 or 28/9 or 32/6 whatever. Why do I say TL 3? IMO anything higher implies machinery which the low tech proponents cry oh but what if it breaks? To which I say, what if it does? You use the other one you brought with you or you use your neighbours or you use his neighbours, surely your colony has more than one Tractor/harvester/truck/insert high tech item here please!!! Surely also you remembered to bring a small supply of the parts most likely to break too. If one or two of your colonist's harvesters break just at harvest, sure they may be stuffed, your colony shouldn't be though.
Ok even say all your colonies Harvesters break just at harvest time the low tech proponents revert to Horse drawn variants. Wait a minute, these colonist come from a TL 9+ society (who can do it arguement) How many can ride a horse, care for a horse, work a horse team? I come from a TL8/9 society and spent my first 12 years on a farm and I can't.(35y/old now) Speaking of my farm days I recall my father and I building a dam, well deepening a dam. We used a roughly 2 cubic meter bucket salvaged from who knows what, it must've been 30 years old then, towed behind a tractor.
It took us more than one day. So lets apply this to our various colonies. If our Tractor broke down what would have happened? Answer one we'd have used the other older tractor. If that also broke down? We'd have borrowed one or used the truck. Couldn't borrow one? surely my arguement is circular by now I'll stop.
Self sufficient from Tractor manufactuers ? Oh yes those evil Tractor manufactures symbols of oppression against the good and worthy Church of Cousin Marriage. Ok maybe they are, Soviet Tractors were manufactured by the state. State = government. Lets play. No tractors, TL 3 hmmmn shovels? One Man, one Boy how many days till that dam gets deeper/bigger/dug at all whatever?
Just another thought. Someone please find me an example of a "Colony" established here on earth any time period that cut all ties to not only it's homeport/nation but to all other nations on earth? I'm stumped.
And please explain to me the "myth" of the wagon train settler's of USA as having established independent or even self sufficient settlements when they got west. I'd suggest to you when they got there a month later came another one, 6 months later another one later still another one later still the railroad etc etc.(I'm implying resupply here even if it's only of a sort)
Also lets take my own "Colony" that I live in to this day. The Swan River colony aka Perth or Fremantle or both. Established first at roughly TL 3 predominantly by Englands criminals, convicts, and generally unwanted class, with a few, maybe 10% hardy explorers. It did contain a military presence, it did consist of mostly those who'd probably not want to return to England. It did not cut off all ties, nor did it drop to some locally sustainable TL 1 culture/tech base. I fear my post has gone on long enough, suffice to say: low tech,low pop, selfsufficient/Independent Colonies?
I'm sorry I must have need of eye surgery I just can't see it.
 
Sigh, to sum up my arguments:

1) Governments are not going to sponsor colonization efforts. It takes tax money that can be utilized elswhere, and risks creating an independent and competiting political entity down the line. It is simply not (usually) in their best interest to establish off world colonies. Short of a major catastrophy, its a bad idea and will be seen as a waste. Look at the space programs in the present day and the fights for even minimal funding.

2) Corporation will want their colonies to be as self sufficient as possible to attract colonists, i.e. workers, and also to reduce its own overhead. A dependent colony that has to import the basic necessities of life is going to be far more expensive, and that reduces profit and incentive to establish in the first place. A dependent colony is more at risk of destabilization from a missed shipment, than an independent one. And the more risky a colony is, the more you have to pay people to work that colony.

Independent colonies are the difference between paying large salaries and high prices for support, and selling land to colonists, and lower price for support. Between higher overhead and less profits, and lower overhead and higher profits.

3) That leaves organizations such as the Church of Cousin Marrying, or other philosophical separatists movements. Their very act of separating them from the home world indicates a desire for independence from that home world. And you are not independent if they are shipping you vital supplies on a regular basis.

For self sufficiency to be achieved, that means that the vital things, such as food, water, shelter and air have to be created in situ. To do this independent of the home world, that requires being careful about just what tech you bring with you. There are a number of ways to do this that I can see.

Low Teching: Going back to tech level 3 is not as bad as some folks are making it out to be. The example of Australia given above is really an invalid one, because it was started by a tech level 3 civilization to begin with. We are talking of an age of square rigged wooden ships, gunpowder flint lock weapons, horse drawn steel plows and the like.

It should be noted that this is the beginning of the industrial revolution, which would be impossible without a surplus of non-farm labor to begin with. Food production efficiencies had already started to improve prior to this, which is one reason why the industrial revolution was able to happen at all.

Many modern technologies, for example the Bermuda rig sailing ship, can also be constructed using 18th century technology and materials. There are other examples where our technical knowledge would translate using simpler materials.

And, more importantly, it would be only temporary, as a lot of technical knowledge we have already achieved, knowledge that is easily transportable, even if it is in paper books. The wheel does not have to be invented from scratch, as we already know how to build such things as computers, power plants, digital watches and the like. This would allow the independent colony to take off a lot faster than our own civilization did.

Right teching: Make the equipment you take along rugged and where possible field repairable. The addition of a machine shop can greatly aid the maintenence of such technology, and make the tech level fall far less. Having a machine shop that can duplicate itself, as well as a power supply, bringing that stuff in the initial colonization plan, would greatly reduce the risks, and would make the colony more profitable overall.

Biotech: This is where I think the food argument breaks down (which is really a combination of two arguments and will be dealt with below) Higher yeilding crops, as just one example, will reduce the amount of labor required to farm, amount of acrage required to feed the colony. Items such as horses are self replicating, and to some extent self repairable. And by tinkering with the genetics, you can improve on these facets of such creatures to ensure that off world support is not needed.

One point should be stressed, is that none of these three proposals are exclusive of any other. You can do all three.

Food production labor: At the beginning of the American Revolution 19 farmers fed 20 people. The argument appears to be that a self sufficient colony would also require an near identical ratio of farm labor, to the rest of the work force. I have already shown several ways around this above. This is not necessarily true.

Also, farm labor is idle during large chunks of the year. During plowing and planting, as well as harvesting, the labor needs is highest. But during the summer and winter, their is little labor needed. This is why historically wars were fought in the summer, after crops were planted, because of the extra labor available for military actions.

Since the colony is not (generally speaking) at war, that labor can be applied to other projects, such as mining and manufacturing, if required. And thereby boost the tech level of the colony.

It should be noted that recent Bureau of Labor Statistics for the USA show 2.053 million workers in farm and agriculture related jobs out of a total job force of 138.556 million. Even if you assume the entire 9.82 million production workers are ALL building stuff to supply the farm industry, and no exports of any food stuffs, you still have 1 farmer (and related industry worker) feeding 11 1/2 people. Hopefully you can see that my assumptions mean the farmer and those in related fields are feeding far more than that.

Yes they are using modern tech level 8 equipment. But if we already know how to get 1 farmer to feed 11 people, the idea that we would revert back to the pre-Revolutionary war ratio of 19 farmers to 20 people seems a bit ludicrous. Especially considering the work arounds I have provided above.

Yes, it is going to require a special kind of person to be willing to go to such a colony world. But outside of some form of slavery, a colony is going to have a self selecting population to begin with. Folks who think they have the right stuff or who want to get away from the home world.

In our own history, this has meant mostly the peasant classes immigrating. The aristocracy and a lot of the bourgeois stayed in Europe, as they had it far better off than the peasant class. They came here for a number of reasons, mostly for a better life free from the political control. To a large extent, they were extremely successful, in an incredibly short time frame. European civilization may stretch back over 2000 years, but most of the technical advances since then have been the result of the efforts of the population of one nation, on only 200 years.

Part of this was due to political ideals, especially the concepts of individual freedom (no matter how poorly enacted, especially in the slave holding south) And yes, that colony did not lose contact with its motherlands for any extended time. However now that former colony leads the world in technical advancement, and per capita productivity. Its economy is larger than the next 6 nations combined, despite having far fewer people than several of its competitors, and despite existing for a far shorter time.

I can't help thinking that part of the resistence to the idea of a self sufficient colony might have something to do with this latter facet, that America was settled mostly by peasants, and succeeded beyond the wildest dreams of anyone, without the overriding hand of an aristocracy. The very idea that free stupid peasants can lead their own lives, and do far better than their "betters" in Europe, has to be galling to some. America has proven that an aristocracy is superflous at best, and parasitical drain, even an impediment to technical advancement at worst. We did not do anything that any other nation could not have done, far sooner, far earlier in history. But they did not, and we did.

Its not a question of manpower. Its a question of brain power, and whether you utilize all the brain power of a colony, or whether the few subjugate the many, preventing them from developing their own ideas and technical innovations. That is probably the key factor here more than anything else, including which technologies are brought to the colony world in the first place.

Bureau of Labor statistics can be found here:
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t10.htm
 
European civilization may stretch back over 2000 years, but most of the technical advances since then have been the result of the efforts of the population of one nation, on only 200 years.
Praise indeed for Great Britain ;)
file_23.gif
 
Hi,

very...hmmm...interesting points of view here


At least I have to agree that political and social developments here in our "old europe" had driven out vast amounts of brainpower during the
last century. World Wars and Nazi Regime caused another academic exodus.

If you want to push yourself forward in high level science, it is still often necessary for an academic to leave rigid research structures in Germany in order to find better environments in the "west" :(

But I think its difficult anyway to apply technological advancement to any "nation", because history and increased personal freedom strongly mixed up intellectual resources.

In that way, I use to think more globally...

Regarding aristocracy:
Perhaps the new world really managed to get rid of this, but at least there are just other people concentrating money, power and influence.

Best regards,

Mert
Old Europe
 
Actually, theEngineer, you do bring to mind an excellent point.

How do you recruit for your new colony? Do you just want strong backs, sharp minds and a willingness to learn*, and are you willing to train? Do you want your colonists already trained? Or are you willing to settle for a mix?

*OT: This strong back, sharp mind and willingness to learn no longer seem to be enough here in the U.S., or at least the part I've seen in my 23 years. This is probably due to population pressure, and is an excellent argument in favor of off-planet colonies.
 
Hi,

despite everything going on in the younger history, the US (IMHO) still are a very attractive place to work and to live.
Even if everybody knows, that its more difficult to get along than several decades ago...
I love the northern west coast


So, how would I recruit ?
As my colony surely would fail, if there are too many academics
I will adress the mix.
I will offer high positions for professionals, comfortable positions for family people and better positions for unlucky people.
I will have to offer training, as it is very unlikely to get all the people I need "out of the box".
I just have to try to offer, what people want:
- peace
- outcome
- security
- chances
- social contacts

If enough points seem to be better in the colony than the actual location, people will come.
I hope
 
Drakon,
1)Governments are not going to sponsor colonization efforts. Taxes etc etc the cost is too high and they risk creating a competitor.

I see your point here, I just don't aggree with it. In practically any Traveller universe the only way to establish an interstellar colony is by using starships to transport colonists there.
Who is going to be able to afford to do this on a scale that will enable the colony to survive? I'd suggest it is only going to be large nation governments, full blown planetary governments, allready multi world/system governments, the major races, and large organisations approaching the level of Megacorps or the Megacorps themselves. Incidentally there are plenty of examples of governments either setting up colonies themselves or getting involved in colonies very soon after establishment right here on earth. England France Spain Holland (the Dutch)
Portugal hell even Germany had colonies in the pacific, Australia was tasked with administering them after ww2. As for them being a political or economic threat later down the line, who would the English class as their closest allies atm?
I'd say America Australia Canada... former colonies all. I'd think their trade partner list would be close to their allies list I just mentioned too, and you can bet no-one in England in 1941 regretted having created America Australia and half of what is now Canada.

2)Corporations will want colonies to be as self sufficient as possible to attract colonists and to reduce overheads etc etc..

Again I can see your point but I suspect you are incorrectly assessing their priorites. Corporations will first and foremost want their colonies to be as productive as possible. If they are also self sufficient then all the better but if not well... they'll make a profit there too. After all their ships will be going to the colony anyway to collect what the colony is hopefully producing. Why go in empty? The average PC's group trying to make a free/far trader pay it's way certainly wouldn't go in empty why would a corps ships?

3) That leaves organisations such as The Church of Cousin Marriage or other philosopical seperatist movements...

Yeah it does kinda leave them, it leaves them up a creek without a.... If as you state a Government couldn't afford it then how the heck is the Church going to be able to pay?

You then moved on to a more in depth look at what self sufficiency actually meant to you.

For self sufficiency to be achieved, that means that the vital things, such as food, water shelter, and air have to be provided in situ..

Well the original post stated something along the lines of an "Earth standard world". Given this I took air and water pretty much as a given, though one shouldn't overlook the difficulties of maintaining a steady potable supply of water.
Shelter I would have had supplied as part of the cargo of my first one or two ships. Probably befor any of the permanent colonists even arrived. In any event I see the production of shelter both being easier to produce and requiring less of your labour force if you utilise not just hi tech but perhaps, or rather, the tech of your starting world. This will afterall be what your colonists are used to.
This leaves food, which seems to be the main point of contention with everyone who has posted on this thread. My understanding of the bulk of your posts was that you favoured low tech but in your last post you seem to have moved your position somewhat by your right teching statement. I have no arguements with right teching. Clearly right teching is teching at the same tech level as your homeworld so that a)your colonists/workers don't have to be retrained on outmoded and outdated technologly. b) your colonization organiser/supplier doesn't have to buy lower tech from a lower tech planet, and c)
so that you maximise the potential production of all your colonist/workers. If I may, I'll use some of your own numbers to explain: Food production labour during at about the American revolution 19 farmers per 20 people fed. Thats a ratio of 1 to 1.05. TL 3 isn't looking too good there.
TL 8 tech intensive farming (your view on USA current farming tech) Food production labour 1 to 11.5 Big difference here which you yourself noted. OK so, Bio teching, here is where I'll grant you came up with a valid point I'd missed; Higher yeild crops = less acrage under crop = less Food production labour. But then you say this will account for the discrepency between 1 to 1.05 ratio's and 1 to 11.5 ratios.!!!! At best Higher yield crops might bring your posted TL 3 Food production labour ratio up from 1 to 1.05 to 1 to 3 or maybe even up to 1 to 6 but I just cannot see it commimg up to your posted 1 to 11.5 ratio using the best tech available. Why would a colony regardless of who established it have an agricultural labour force far higher than it needed to be?

"The arguement of Australia given above is really an invalid one"

ummmn excuse me. I think only if you completely missed the point of it. My reason for including the swan river colony as an example was not because it was a TL 3 colony that survived, but rather because it was; a)of the same TL of its creator, b)was populated by those who had been rejected by their homeworld/nation and who were therefore most likely to have isolationist views, and c) for the very reason that they didn't isolate themselves. How can an example of a colonly being the same TL of it's creator be invalid to you?
As to the rest of your post, namely the last four paragraphs, I will not debate issues of rampant nationalistic pride with you, though don't confuse this with an inability to do so. I simply don't feel a Traveller forum is the place, just as it isn't the place to debate racism with racist bigots (note * I'm not calling you a racist bigot merely putting that topic in the same "too hard and ultimately pointless" basket)

Jame] asked How do you recruit for your colony?
Well I'd say that depends a lot on what type of colony you have. As you've seen alot of people have widely divergent views on what a colony is/ who can make them happen etc etc.
I'd say if it was a government doing it it would depend alot on the Government. Historically all sorts of governments have tried various methods from advertising, pressganging, granting lands, simply ordering (if the colony starts as a military outpost nb historical references are many of Englands colonies and some of Frances pacific rim territories)or political/criminal dumping or combinations of all of the above.
If it's a company/corporation they will generally setup economic colonies ie those based around exploiting something. Therefor they will have a greater proportion of colonists who are working at the site of exploitation be that huge farms an open cut mine asteroid minning whatever... so they will by necessity have to advertise for skilled workers. Now they may rotate these workers in and out on a month on month off or six months on one off ratio. Or they may invested heavily in making the colony permanent and thus attractive to permanent resettlement including the wife and kids etc.
If it's something else (the Church of Cousin Marriage seems popular)Then these people will have
a ready supply of converts flocking to join the ranks of volunteers for the colony. These people will possibly not be the most highly trained perfectly suited to the task's at hand but they'll be damned motivated and willing to make up possible dificiencies with hard work and true grit and an independent spirit etc etc etc ;)
 
Unless the PCs are getting involved in starting, supporting, or rescuing a fledgling colony all this doesn't make much difference.

If they find themselves involved in anything other than starting a colony, players aren't going to try to write a masters thesis on the economic viability of the plot development!

If you are GMing an ambitious group of players who have a hankering to plant a colony on planet XYZ, let us know. It could be quite interesting to kibitz.
 
In most cases, you do NOT want scientists to make up the bulk of your colony. They are great for research stations, but not for a self-sufficient colony.

What you need are technicians. Mechanics, welders, doctors, engineers, computer techs, pilots. You want people that can keep things *running*, not theorize about the cool blue rocks you can see from the pressure dome.

I would say that every adult colonist needs to have a useful technical skill. You can have scientists, but they better be able to fix the ATV also. Everybody should have basic medical training (CPR & First Aid), and there should be at least one full-fledged medical doctor per 50 colonists, with a minimum of three in a small colony.

A real colony is much more like a wild west frontier town than it is like a science project, and you should plan accordingly.

Also, the colony should be set up to "live off the land" as much as possible by processing local natural resources into needed consumables. The best description of this is in RObert Zubrin's "The Case for Mars," wherein he describes processing local CO2 with Hydrogen to make liquid methane for vehicle & rocket fuel, as well as separating out the O2 for use by colonists. He also talks about using local soil baked into bricks to provide radiation protection for colonial structures.
 
Governments would want to sponser colonies. Its a great way to get prestiege. Also there might be strategic benefits that counteract the economic problems. Another way however would be for the Imperium to offer colonial insurance policies to the megacorps.
 
If I may be so bold, some comments on everything that has been drug up so far ...

> IIRC, Robert Zubrin described his colony crew as all Scotty's and McCoy's; implying engineering and medical skills are the sole requirements for atleast start up operations

> Colonies could seldom be supported at tech levels lower than 7 and if properly maintained would never drop below their starting TL; the only exception would be on worlds already ideal for human habitation where "living off the land" is a possibility. Zubrin's book highlights that we have the tech now to create a reasonably self sufficient Martian colony, given the initial colonization effort receives the proper equipment and is supported in its infancy

> In the same vein, colonies have to be supported externally until a viable birthrate and domestic tech support can be achieved; even a colony ship would suffice if sufficiently outfitted to serve as a support vehicle for the dirt-siders

> Colonies could be established for any number of reasons; territorial expansion, forward military base, scientific research, resource exploitation (mining, agriculture, energy, etc.), population relief, even religious isolation. Colony support mechanisms could be just as diverse, ranging from corporate through military and private institutions

Just my thoughts ...
 
Originally posted by MrMorden:
In most cases, you do NOT want scientists to make up the bulk of your colony. They are great for research stations, but not for a self-sufficient colony.
It's a pretty safe bet that every sensibly planned colony will begin as a research station. It will probably accompanied by a military outpost, but this may well be offworld. The point of the latter, incidentally, is not so much to stop the research station being overrun by bugs, but to keep potential rival colonisers away.

Only the Church of Cousin Marriage is going to turn up to a world, start building houses and planting crops, and not expect to die.

Of course, research stations will have their fair share of technicians too. Perhaps it might be worth considering the personnel assigned to present day Antarctic research stations as a vague analogue.

Anyway, _part_ of what the scientists will be doing is identifying exploitable resources. They will also be identifying potential obstacles to settlement, as well as the plain old general research that you would want to do on any new world.

This duration of this phase would vary, but it should be as long as possible. Worlds are big and complex places, and what you don't know _will_ kill you.

Alan B
 
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