Colony requirements

[alanb]

Originally posted by eiladayn:
Don't you think that ANY starfaring people capable of founding a colony on another world would also utilize those resources off the colony planet, there's lots of stuff orbiting around ol' Sol we haven't touched, lots and lots of water, metal, etc., enough to support and FEED many more times six billion of us here in our own solar system. I think that a star colony might very well be self sustaining once the infrastructure allows it to tap those resources and self sustaining for a long,long time.

The point is that making use of all this stuff requires lots and lots of high tech infrastructure.

It is entirely possible, BTW, that the colony may initially be established "off-world", with the component down the well being distinctly secondary.

The problem is supporting the high tech infrastructure - that's the limit to self-sufficiency.

Incidentally, there are good reasons why we haven't used all the stuff floating around in space yet - it's not economically viable. It may never be economically viable. But don't suggest that to SF fans.

Alan B

 

[Drakon]

Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Drakon:
But isn't this what we are talking about? Whether a colony is self sufficient or not? Perhaps we are using the same terms for different meanings, and confusing each other with what we see as essential.

By self-sufficient, I mean that a colony can maintain its existing tech base and standard of living, not that it can survive. Most colonies will be designed to be self-sufficient enough to survive for a reasonable period, unless this is very impractical. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[LordVince]

Originally posted by vegascat:
It seems the important questions conderning colony requirements are:
Who is sponsoring the colony?
Why is the colony being created?
How far from civilized space will it be?
What are the conditions on the planet?
What are the exportable items/resources?
Who will be making a profit?

Any important type questions left out?

Yes, yes, yes! THIS is where it MUST start for the GM! Before he can ask "what is needed/existant" for any colony, the GM MUST answer these questions -- because these questions DEFINE the nature of the colony! There are too many variables in the questions to simply state that ALL colonies will require X number of such-and-such and Y numbers of this-and-that.

Only by first defining the NATURE of the colony, can the GM then sit down and say "okay, this colony will need..."

The only change I can think to make to your list of questions, Vegascat, is to alter #5 to read:

What are the exploitable items/resources?

Admittedly, exploitable and exportable usually go hand-in-hand, but you have to identify and exploit a resource, then have a surplus beyond your needs, before you start exporting.

If the function of a colony IS simple subsistence at a low(er) Tech Level, then there would be a "short list" of the people and services the colony MUST have. A colony set up as nothing more than a ranching station has simple needs. A colony set up as a "housing development" for a nearby high-pop world would also have a variation of the "short list" -- it would read "Needed: Everything".

It all depends on the NATURE of the colony, and these 6 questions of yours, here, accurately assist in defining this.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Lord Vince:
If the function of a colony IS simple subsistence at a low(er) Tech Level, then there would be a "short list" of the people and services the colony MUST have. A colony set up as nothing more than a ranching station has simple needs.

But, of course, there is a difference here... The ranching station is probably going to have the sophisticated communications, air/rafts and so on that the subsistence colony won't. It won't be able to maintain them in the long term, but it will have them.

That's the point of the "high tech, not sustainable" argument.

Alan B

 

[Drakon]

And the reason why I have advocated low teching the colony, to make it more self sufficient earlier on.

But I started thinking about exactly how much infrastructure you will need to say maintain the air raft. You need a power plant, and a machine shop at least capable of replicating itself. It occurs to me that many of the items in a standard machine shop, that you would need to repair or construct parts for a variety of equipment, would be a base line minimum to support the technology.

This would require some kind of kiln or furnace for smelting, or firing raw material. But that can be something that is constructed, like from a kit, once the colony is set up. If you look at the material requirements, and how to fashion complex equipment, you might be able to reduce the needed infrastructure.

Now, it seems to me that most star ships have some kind of machine shop aboard. As well as a power plant. Whether this would be sufficient to bootstrap a colony, is something that requires further investigation. Also, noted that the US military has started fielding what amounts to "Santa's Workshops" for field manufacturing of replacement parts for various military equipment.

Simply dumping high tech goods is not sufficient, and I have doubts that it would be economical in the long run. The new colony would have access to a wealth of natural resources to make their own, if they have the proper knowledge, and tools to do so, in the beginning. And if the tools they start off with, are able to build duplicates of themselves (the tools) then that would be a good start.

 

[Drakon]

Originally posted by Lord Vince:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by vegascat:
It seems the important questions conderning colony requirements are:
Who is sponsoring the colony?
Why is the colony being created?
How far from civilized space will it be?
What are the conditions on the planet?
What are the exportable items/resources?
Who will be making a profit?

The only change I can think to make to your list of questions, Vegascat, is to alter #5 to read:

What are the exploitable items/resources?

Admittedly, exploitable and exportable usually go hand-in-hand, but you have to identify and exploit a resource, then have a surplus beyond your needs, before you start exporting.

If the function of a colony IS simple subsistence at a low(er) Tech Level, then there would be a "short list" of the people and services the colony MUST have. A colony set up as nothing more than a ranching station has simple needs. A colony set up as a "housing development" for a nearby high-pop world would also have a variation of the "short list" -- it would read "Needed: Everything".

It all depends on the NATURE of the colony, and these 6 questions of yours, here, accurately assist in defining this. </font>[/QUOTE]Have to second his Lordship's comments. I would also add,
How frequent are visits from the home world? This is almost the same as "How far from civilization" the colony is, but in my opinion, gets to the reason why the distance is important.

A higher rate of visitation means tighter contact, and potentially higher immigration or colonization rate. (Depending obviously on other factors) Faster transmission of technical breakthroughs, even sending the kids back to the home world for college becomes doable.

In other words, I think that the more frequently visited the colony is, the faster it will grow, as well as the faster it can match the tech level of the home world. Since I am thinking mostly of interstellar colonies, that means that jump drive becomes the central factor in how frequently the colony is visited, or supplied.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Drakon:
But I started thinking about exactly how much infrastructure you will need to say maintain the air raft. You need a power plant, and a machine shop at least capable of replicating itself.

You _don't_ need "a machine shop at least capable of replicating itself"!

This is a ranch. It interacts with the rest of the universe. If it needs spare parts, it orders them. A few weeks later, they arrive.

The machine shop is pretty much "a machine shop". It has a store of common parts, appropriate tools, and a technician or two.

If there is a problem that it can't deal with, you either order parts from off world, or you get a new air/raft, park the bits of the old one off in the shed to the side, and cannibalise it for parts.

Incidentally, you probably won't just have one air/raft, either. If you have an entire world to play with, your ranch is likely to be quite big. You are likely to have a bunch of air/rafts, playing all the roles present day vehicles play on ranches: helicopter, pickup truck, four wheel drive, etc... (You might also have some ATVs, for rough weather and heavy lifting.)

A more serious infrastructure problem would be healthcare... You might want a few low berths to deal with cases you can't handle on the colony world.

Yes, obviously you will want redundant power plants...

All of this is quite expensive. Colonisation is not a trivial exercise.

Yes, it's cheaper just to hand it over to low-tech homesteaders - but economically you are just throwing it away.

By the way: not every farm/ranch on Earth is within a couple of hours drive from a city. Guess what? Very few of them have machine shops capable of replicating themselves...

Alan B

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Drakon:
Simply dumping high tech goods is not sufficient.

Um..sure it is. That's what we call 'trade'. Now, in the long term, once you've got a fairly major world (say, pop-6 or pop-7) you're going to want some heavier industries, and by pop-9 or so you'll be pretty much able to manufacture everything locally, but not manufacturing everything locally is pretty normal.

 

[Drakon]

Originally posted by alanb:
You _don't_ need "a machine shop at least capable of replicating itself"!

This is a ranch. It interacts with the rest of the universe. If it needs spare parts, it orders them. A few weeks later, they arrive.

Now you are confusing me. You are arguing what here? I though you were arguing about the inability to maintain a high tech self sufficient culture at a colony.

If you are talking a ranch, the tech required is not that big a deal. You may, or may not, have air rafts, or you may go back to riding horses. Also, it should be pointed out that a ranch is only one kind of colony, and such a solution may not fit all colonization efforts.

To order spare parts, that involves a minimum of a 2 week turnaround, assuming that you get the order in time, a ship is sitting on the launch pad, jumps homes, and the company has the part ready to deliver once it touches down. And I can see that stretching out to a month or more, dependent on a whole host of factors.

As for cannibalizism, you need a ready supply of junked air rafts available. In the early days of your ranch, you ain't going to have that, you are not going to ship junk, and everyone is going to be utilizing their own rafts for their own jobs.

In both cases, you are going to be in competition with everyone else, just like in the real world. You will be competing for space aboard the cargo ship, or someone else's repair needs.

The self replicating machine shop, I see, as a minimum requirement to keep all those high tech air rafts operating, far from the home world. Not only should it be able to build duplicates of itself, but that minimum requirement should also cover constructing new parts for air rafts, earth movers, or any other piece of high tech you have. And can do it in far shorter time than ordering parts from the home world.

Trade is a good thing, and I think I see where you are coming from, kinda sorta. But depending on trade in high tech equipment is still kinda dicey, and you better have something local to fall back on. Or else, it will be time to take your cattle to market and you can't do it because that is the exact time your air raft decided to break down. Which means either the machine shop, or in this case, horses.

 

[Drakon]

Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Drakon:
Simply dumping high tech goods is not sufficient.

Um..sure it is. That's what we call 'trade'. Now, in the long term, once you've got a fairly major world (say, pop-6 or pop-7) you're going to want some heavier industries, and by pop-9 or so you'll be pretty much able to manufacture everything locally, but not manufacturing everything locally is pretty normal. </font>[/QUOTE]I see where you are coming from. And I think we are talking two different things. Simply dumping high tech goods is not sufficient to make the colony self sufficient, at least at its present tech level. To keep it going if trade from the home world is interrupted.

I am not sure about your population figures, as we don't have to reinvent the wheel. We still have the accumulated knowledge of at least the colonists, even if we forgot to bring the encyclopedia with us. One of the things that technology does is require fewer people to make more things. Automation can help out a lot in this area, even giving you heavy industries with a minimum of manpower.

For us, it took those population levels to discover the technologies. And that may be more a factor of having enough brains on the job till the right one stumbles on the solution to the problem. But once we discovered it, it requires fewer people to utilize it.

 

[Anthony]

Higher tech may require fewer people for individual jobs, but the number of required jobs is much much higher. I'm not talking about the number of people required to invent technology (the relevant population rating, counting just the first world, has been 8 since TL 5, and will be 9 for TL 8+), I'm talking about the number of people you need before it makes any sense to build all of the components you actually need for a society.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Drakon:
If you are talking a ranch, the tech required is not that big a deal. You may, or may not, have air rafts, or you may go back to riding horses. Also, it should be pointed out that a ranch is only one kind of colony, and such a solution may not fit all colonization efforts.

To order spare parts, that involves a minimum of a 2 week turnaround, assuming that you get the order in time, a ship is sitting on the launch pad, jumps homes, and the company has the part ready to deliver once it touches down. And I can see that stretching out to a month or more, dependent on a whole host of factors.

First: a month or more is quite likely. That's why you need to plan ahead as much as possible.

Second: I was talking about a ranch because somebody else raised this particular example. It is actually the closest case to the low-tech homesteader colony which was the model that I am arguing against.

Finally: why don't we just use horses... Vehicles allow you to cover more territory. Horses aren't exactly infrastructure free either. Horses are unreliable, get tired, break legs, get sick, get eaten by predators, are bad tempered, stupid and smelly.

Horses are economically inefficient. There are reasons why the internal combustion engine mostly put them out of business, even in remote areas.

Actually, there is no reason why you couldn't use horses as a _supplement_ to your high tech gadgets... They can't fly, or cross swollen rivers, they're slow and they can't carry much freight, even if you hitch them in teams to wagons, but they are still a usable way of getting around in certain cases.

You would need to have your head examined to rely on them if there an alternative - and there is.

Alan B

 

[Drakon]

Originally posted by Anthony:
I'm talking about the number of people you need before it makes any sense to build all of the components you actually need for a society.

Would you care to elaborate on this more? I don't see that many physical components for a society that are required. I see a lot of "nice to have's" and "that's a cool thing" but not a lot that is necessary for an independent society.

 

[Drakon]

Originally posted by alanb:
Finally: why don't we just use horses... Vehicles allow you to cover more territory. Horses aren't exactly infrastructure free either. Horses are unreliable, get tired, break legs, get sick, get eaten by predators, are bad tempered, stupid and smelly.

Horses are also self repairing and self replicating. Their infrastructure needs are not as great to produce more horses, and varies little from the infrastructure needed to support human beings. You can't drink oil or make use of it yourself. You only dig it out of the ground and refine it, because your car needs it, or else it is just rusting metal junk.

Horses are economically inefficient. There are reasons why the internal combustion engine mostly put them out of business, even in remote areas.

This is an attempt at viewing economics in terms of absolutes. It is a false view of economics. Economic efficiency is more of a relative scale. Horses are economically inefficient compared to a gasoline engine with all the associated roads, refineries and gas stations that have to be created. Or rather, in the modern environment, horses are less efficient economically than gas engines.

But in talking colonies, that don't have that infrastructure to begin with, the gas engine is so much scrap metal and the horse becomes more economically efficient than your engine. Despite its problems, it is still better than nothing.

You would need to have your head examined to rely on them if there an alternative - and there is.

And it is exactly this kind of thinking that I find offensive. Your alternative depends on a supply line that reaches outside of your colonial solar system, that even yourself admit, would take more like a month to get spare parts for. You object to machine shops, yet want all the high tech goodies that such a shop could produce.

You seem perfectly happy to give control over your life and your well being over to people in the next star system, and trust that they will always have your best interest at heart. And I am the one that needs my head examined?

Your alternative, dependence on the home world, I don't see as a good idea at all. And lets face it, if the home world was that great, why set up a colony in the first place?

 

[Whipsnade]

Drakon asked:

"Would you care to elaborate on this more? I don't see that many physical components for a society that are required. I see a lot of "nice to have's" and "that's a cool thing" but not a lot that is necessary for an independent society."


Mr. Drakon,

Not that many physical components are required for a society? You may be amazed at just how many there are!

Many people have trouble wrapping their heads around the immense size of the incrediably interwoven production web our current day world enjoys. Sure, many items being produced are inconsequnetial; those 'nice to haves' and 'thats a cool thing' you mention, but those items are a direct result of the production web's efficiency. It produces enough precursor materials to meet basic needs and still have lots left over for 'luxury' items.

Many people tend to view various end-use items as discrete units, almost as if they sprang forth fully formed from a production line like Athena did from the forehead of Zeus. A few acknowledge that end-use items do contain various parts that require their own production lines, and even fewer remember that those part require parts. Only a handful remember that the production machinery requires it's own production, or that the parts require parts require parts, or even try and scratch the surface of precursor materials and the like. I suspect this is because so few of us are actually involved in making things anymore.

You object to the idea of interstellar trade supplying certain items to a 'self-sufficient' colony, choosing to belive that a 57th Century version of a machine shop can do the job instead. Ever stop think just what sort of special materials and parts a 57th Century machine shop may require? Or a 21st Century shop? Or a 19th Century shop? Will your colony be able to supply all of those?

If it can, it will be much larger than you imagine.

Let me suggest a 'thought experiment' that may shed light on this problem. A few years back, a member of the TML posted a link to an automated brick making machine. He thought that such a machine would be the bee's knees for any colony world and could go a long way towards making the colony self-sufficient. Then a few of us on the TML who are still actually employed in jobs that make things began to point out the sort of production and supply 'pyramid' that the brick making machine would require. It quickly became obvious that the 'efficiency' in brick making that the automated machine provided was due to the myriad of other people and machines producing the specialized materials and components it required. Only a large, tech savvy population which produced many other itmes could keep the machine running.

So, why don't you pick one of those few 'physical components' you think a society really requires and we'll tell you just what is involved in producing it. Believe me, the exercise will be eye opening.

Independence in an economic sesne usually means 'doing without'. Hands are required for much more than creating the end-use item in question. I could skip back to 10,000BCE and teach a Paleolithic tribe three field crop rotation straight out of the Middle Ages. It wouldn't be that much of a technological leap, but the Paleolithic tribe still wouldn't be able to do it. They wouldn't have enough hands for starters. Just to name a few, tanning, milling, woodworking, metal making, and blacksmithing are all full time occupations. They'll need to be fed while pursuing their specialized tasks.

Even to approach self-sufficiency at a low TL, your colony will be a hell of a lot larger than you can imagine.

Pick and post that item, then I'll break down its creation for you. Believe me, you'll enjoy it.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Jame]

Maybe what Drakon and many others think is that a colony will have a low population. If this is an Earth-Prime world, wouldn't a LOT of people want to join? Why would population be kept low?

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Drakon:
Horses are economically inefficient compared to a gasoline engine with all the associated roads, refineries and gas stations that have to be created. Or rather, in the modern environment, horses are less efficient economically than gas engines.

But in talking colonies, that don't have that infrastructure to begin with, the gas engine is so much scrap metal and the horse becomes more economically efficient than your engine. Despite its problems, it is still better than nothing.

The refinery is at the home world. The gas station is a storage tank. The roads are built by your bulldozer. In any case, your vehicle is a 4WD.

You're a city boy, aren't you?

And lets face it, if the home world was that great, why set up a colony in the first place?

You set up a colony to make money, or produce necessary commodities.

PS: I have edited this post to remove an entirely inappropriate comment, for which I apologise.

Alan B

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Drakon:
Horses are also self repairing and self replicating. Their infrastructure needs are not as great to produce more horses, and varies little from the infrastructure needed to support human beings.

Which infrastructure is very expensive, actually. All societies based on animal and human labor (rather than mechanical labor) have required 80-95% of the population be involved in the production of food (typically farming, though at lower population levels hunting and gathering are options). Modern high efficiency farming is dependent on mechanization and synthetic fertilizers, both of which require large support structures.

 

[Zutroi]

Another advantage of the horse over the Jeep (TM - Daimler-Chrysler):

When your Jeep breaks down 100 miles from your nearest population center, you can't eat it. This explains why dogsleds continued to be used for such a long time after the invention of the snowmobile...

 

[Ran Targas]

But Zut, jeeps don't require life support during transit or special fodder when planetside. Jeeps also don't fall prey to injury or predators. Jeeps don't run away. Jeeps can be stored for long periods of time without any maintenance requirements.

And think of the limited environments that a horse could survive in (Earth norm only).

It's all relative.