Colony requirements
- Thread starter vegascat
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far-trader
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Just a couple quick notes to some of the recent comments, I'll have to delve deeper into this thread in the new year as it looks more interesting then when I first glanced when it began.
One horse is not the equal of a one-horsepower gasoline engine. Depending on the horse it's work energy will vary and it already has it's chassis, control systems and drive train whereas the engine in Anthony's example seems to be lacking all that so it's not a fair comparison, yet. You'll need to recalulate your fuel consumption once you add all that. Also you'll need (and use) both (or either) of your "engines" for a lot more than just planting. There's harvest and distribution for a couple more, so you'll need more gas for that engine. Your gasoline engine also needs oil and grease among other items, and all the infrastructure to provide that. The only infrastructure your horse needs is the air it breathes, some grazing ground (till the high octane fuel of your first crop is off), and clean water. This all of course depends on the model of an earth type colonization effort, any largly different environment is probably not suitable for colonization (settlement perhaps).
Which leads to the infrastructure and transport issue again. If it is an earth type world, and depending on your perception of the tech available (if we have say learning drugs as noted in some adventures) why not use local animals. Just give them a treatment of Domestical(tm) and they are ready to pull your plow or wagon or whatever. They are already delivered (no transport cost or volume) and perfectly adapted to local conditions.
Another bonus of animals vs machines is that animals provide useful, if not essential, byproducts for agriculture. All that a gasoline engine produces as byproducts is harmful environmental pollution.
Alanb I'm not so sure you're a farm boy either
Having the refinery "down the road" deliver to your tank on the homestead is fine, when such delivery is just a few hours away if you have a sudden need, like your tank leaked out. Quite a different story if the quickest is a two week wait between order and delivery, especially at the critical planting and harvest times, crops can't wait.
The same goes for repair and replacement parts for all the machinery of your powered tools. If you have a breakdown during planting or harvest you are done if you have to wait that long, forget it, the crop and the season is lost. Murphy's Law rules farming, breakdowns happen at the worst time despite all the planned preventitive maintenance, and you are always next on the dealers list of repairs and/or parts, said parts so ofen not in stock and requiring an order wait. In fact soon it'll be (already is for some I suspect) no parts in stock, everything being on demand manufacture, so you wait again.
And as for those parts, they'll have to send more than just the flagger gear. There'll be the trained tech to install it and all the machinery and tools needed to do the repair or replacement. Most farmers have the tools and knowledge to make simple repairs but as the machines get more complex they can do so less and less.
Anyway as I said just a few more logs for the discussion. It's very interesting, I'll catch up in the new year
One horse is not the equal of a one-horsepower gasoline engine. Depending on the horse it's work energy will vary and it already has it's chassis, control systems and drive train whereas the engine in Anthony's example seems to be lacking all that so it's not a fair comparison, yet. You'll need to recalulate your fuel consumption once you add all that. Also you'll need (and use) both (or either) of your "engines" for a lot more than just planting. There's harvest and distribution for a couple more, so you'll need more gas for that engine. Your gasoline engine also needs oil and grease among other items, and all the infrastructure to provide that. The only infrastructure your horse needs is the air it breathes, some grazing ground (till the high octane fuel of your first crop is off), and clean water. This all of course depends on the model of an earth type colonization effort, any largly different environment is probably not suitable for colonization (settlement perhaps).
Which leads to the infrastructure and transport issue again. If it is an earth type world, and depending on your perception of the tech available (if we have say learning drugs as noted in some adventures) why not use local animals. Just give them a treatment of Domestical(tm) and they are ready to pull your plow or wagon or whatever. They are already delivered (no transport cost or volume) and perfectly adapted to local conditions.
Another bonus of animals vs machines is that animals provide useful, if not essential, byproducts for agriculture. All that a gasoline engine produces as byproducts is harmful environmental pollution.
Alanb I'm not so sure you're a farm boy either
Having the refinery "down the road" deliver to your tank on the homestead is fine, when such delivery is just a few hours away if you have a sudden need, like your tank leaked out. Quite a different story if the quickest is a two week wait between order and delivery, especially at the critical planting and harvest times, crops can't wait.The same goes for repair and replacement parts for all the machinery of your powered tools. If you have a breakdown during planting or harvest you are done if you have to wait that long, forget it, the crop and the season is lost. Murphy's Law rules farming, breakdowns happen at the worst time despite all the planned preventitive maintenance, and you are always next on the dealers list of repairs and/or parts, said parts so ofen not in stock and requiring an order wait. In fact soon it'll be (already is for some I suspect) no parts in stock, everything being on demand manufacture, so you wait again.
And as for those parts, they'll have to send more than just the flagger gear. There'll be the trained tech to install it and all the machinery and tools needed to do the repair or replacement. Most farmers have the tools and knowledge to make simple repairs but as the machines get more complex they can do so less and less.
Anyway as I said just a few more logs for the discussion. It's very interesting, I'll catch up in the new year
Let's see: oil is shipped by sea from the Middle East to your refinery. This takes however many weeks... It sits about in the refinery for however long... It goes to a distributer, which is hopefully "a few hours away". Alternatively, you could locate your refinery in the Middle East, and ship the refined product by sea. It would still take "two weeks" or more to get from the refinery to the distributor but the distributor would only be "a few hours away" from your homestead.
That's the equivalent of it taking a few weeks for your fuel to arrive on world, and a few hours for it to arrive at your homestead from the distributor.
Of course, that "a few hours away" is "a few hours away" by truck. It could be DAYS by bullock team.
Prior to the establishment of a rail network, most freight in these parts (southern Queensland) was hauled by bullock teams. Typically, a team would travel about five to ten miles a day. If you look at maps of this area, you find that the towns are spaced out at roughly this interval. These teams were hauling honking big wagons, but they still didn't haul anything like what a truck or two could manage to do much faster.
Oh, yeah. None of the local farms and grazing properties were self-sufficient. The bullock wagons would be full both ways.
From where I am sitting, it was a two week journey to Brisbane. Now it's a one and a half hour drive. That's the difference between bullocks and trucks.
Alan B
Well, I got a couple of thoughts.
I guess my first thought is: Why create the colony in the first place? Suppose there is a huge deposit of handwaveium near the surface of the world. The meggacorp ExploitItNowCo decides that it can get those resources out of the ground and turn a profit. As long as there is profit to be had, the colony will get everything it needs, and stay at or near it's home world's TL. When it stops being profitable, it stops being a colony. People will pack up and move on to the next exploitable planet.
However, Assuming that the colony isn't funded by something with deep pockets, like a megacorp or a planetary government, and assuming that the colony won't be able to rely on a steady stream of imports from it's home world, I'd think you would need to plan on the colony being low tech and self sufficient until it has enough of a population base to have the specilized workers that are required to sustain a tech level above about 4. Sure, it would start with home world tech, but I think it gradually drop down to about TL3-4 and then claw it's way back up to the home world TL once it gets enough people to sustain that TL. I'm sure it'll have bits and pieces that are higher TL than 3-4, but those won't be too common. (Knowing human nature, I'm sure they will keep their Gauss Pistols in fine working order long after their air/rafts have rusted away)
Anyway, the first kind of colony is...boring. It's really just an extention of the home world, and not something designed to be independent. It's the ones that are supposed to be independent that are the interesting ones. So more about the interesting ones...the bootstrap colony.
I think the location would be the most important. It would have to be close to fresh water (A river or two, not a lake), near mineral resources (nice near-surface deposits preferred), and have plenty of farmland/pasture available. A nice big forrest nearby would be good too, as well as a place to make a quarry for stone, or near limestone so you can make concrete. You would want to pick a spot that was geologically stable, and had decent weather. The last thing you want is your colony getting wiped off the map because of some natural disaster. If you were smart, you would have already done extensive surveys of the planet to locate sources of iron, copper, natural gas, coal, oil, uranium, etc, so when you did get the infrastructure to use them, you would know where to find them.
The next thing you need is people. I wouldn't bother with less than 1000 people. You would also need a lot of raw materials. Seeds, livestock, metals, medicine, tools, and technology. The expectation is that you will eventually run out of most of these supplies, but the hope is that you will be able to find/make your own before you run out. The first year would be the hardest, since you probably won't have enough food production to keep up with the demand. And the colonists are going to be spending a lot of time on construction projects. People need places to sleep. Roads need to be built. Drainage and sewage needs to be figured out. Population growth needs to be planned for. You would need some kind of government to coordinate large scale activities and prioritize projects. The kind of government really doesn't matter, as long as there is something that organizes the people and keeps them focused on the long term goal of being self-sufficient.
Also, one thing that's been bugging me is all this talk about gas. I'd use something besides gasoline for fuel. On an Earth-like world, there are plenty of alternatives that are almost as good that you can produce at a low TL (assuming you have access to LV12 knowlege, of course. Only an idoit would forget to bring along an encyclopedia set). You can ferment just about anything organic if you try hard enough. Alcohol based engines can be pretty efficient. They can not only run cars, but they can also make electricity. There is also wind and water power, which you can use to make electricity. Heck, you can use steam power to produce electricity, if you don't mind chopping down trees (or the local planetary equivalent...this IS an earth-like world, right?) If you have power, then you are one big step closer to being self sufficient. The nice thing about these engines is that they are low maintence and easy to fix. You can make an engine that can be maintained at a lower TL than was used to produce it. At TL 12, you could probably make an engine out of handwavium that is designed with the expectation of wear that will last a few hundred years if you remember to put a cup of vegetable oil in it every few months. Hopefully by that time it wears out, you'll be making your own engines.
I guess my first thought is: Why create the colony in the first place? Suppose there is a huge deposit of handwaveium near the surface of the world. The meggacorp ExploitItNowCo decides that it can get those resources out of the ground and turn a profit. As long as there is profit to be had, the colony will get everything it needs, and stay at or near it's home world's TL. When it stops being profitable, it stops being a colony. People will pack up and move on to the next exploitable planet.
However, Assuming that the colony isn't funded by something with deep pockets, like a megacorp or a planetary government, and assuming that the colony won't be able to rely on a steady stream of imports from it's home world, I'd think you would need to plan on the colony being low tech and self sufficient until it has enough of a population base to have the specilized workers that are required to sustain a tech level above about 4. Sure, it would start with home world tech, but I think it gradually drop down to about TL3-4 and then claw it's way back up to the home world TL once it gets enough people to sustain that TL. I'm sure it'll have bits and pieces that are higher TL than 3-4, but those won't be too common. (Knowing human nature, I'm sure they will keep their Gauss Pistols in fine working order long after their air/rafts have rusted away)
Anyway, the first kind of colony is...boring. It's really just an extention of the home world, and not something designed to be independent. It's the ones that are supposed to be independent that are the interesting ones. So more about the interesting ones...the bootstrap colony.
I think the location would be the most important. It would have to be close to fresh water (A river or two, not a lake), near mineral resources (nice near-surface deposits preferred), and have plenty of farmland/pasture available. A nice big forrest nearby would be good too, as well as a place to make a quarry for stone, or near limestone so you can make concrete. You would want to pick a spot that was geologically stable, and had decent weather. The last thing you want is your colony getting wiped off the map because of some natural disaster. If you were smart, you would have already done extensive surveys of the planet to locate sources of iron, copper, natural gas, coal, oil, uranium, etc, so when you did get the infrastructure to use them, you would know where to find them.
The next thing you need is people. I wouldn't bother with less than 1000 people. You would also need a lot of raw materials. Seeds, livestock, metals, medicine, tools, and technology. The expectation is that you will eventually run out of most of these supplies, but the hope is that you will be able to find/make your own before you run out. The first year would be the hardest, since you probably won't have enough food production to keep up with the demand. And the colonists are going to be spending a lot of time on construction projects. People need places to sleep. Roads need to be built. Drainage and sewage needs to be figured out. Population growth needs to be planned for. You would need some kind of government to coordinate large scale activities and prioritize projects. The kind of government really doesn't matter, as long as there is something that organizes the people and keeps them focused on the long term goal of being self-sufficient.
Also, one thing that's been bugging me is all this talk about gas. I'd use something besides gasoline for fuel. On an Earth-like world, there are plenty of alternatives that are almost as good that you can produce at a low TL (assuming you have access to LV12 knowlege, of course. Only an idoit would forget to bring along an encyclopedia set). You can ferment just about anything organic if you try hard enough. Alcohol based engines can be pretty efficient. They can not only run cars, but they can also make electricity. There is also wind and water power, which you can use to make electricity. Heck, you can use steam power to produce electricity, if you don't mind chopping down trees (or the local planetary equivalent...this IS an earth-like world, right?) If you have power, then you are one big step closer to being self sufficient. The nice thing about these engines is that they are low maintence and easy to fix. You can make an engine that can be maintained at a lower TL than was used to produce it. At TL 12, you could probably make an engine out of handwavium that is designed with the expectation of wear that will last a few hundred years if you remember to put a cup of vegetable oil in it every few months. Hopefully by that time it wears out, you'll be making your own engines.
Yeah. And maybe that's when they sell the world to the Church of Cousin-Marriage, so it could establish its subsistence level utopia.
Boring? My pocket empire's not boring! How do you think I pay for all those mercenary capital ships with spinal mounts? And besides, there are lots of adventures involved in running off illegal homesteaders...
Yes. Any settlement that isn't preceded by extensive survey and research is likely to die. Of course, such survey projects may well leave behind a certain amount of infrastructure, particularly if they last for years or decades. A world is a big place, so spending decades is entirely likely. And, of course, this research is likely to continue even once the world has been settled.
Oh, and such a research program would probably involve a lot of people - potentially thousands. Certainly hundreds.
The first year would be easy. That's _before_ you run out of the supplies you brought. The second year would be the difficult one, when you have to survive on your local production.
What you might do is send in preparatory parties before your main group arrive. They would set up a bit of basic infrastructure: your "starport", power plant and some prefab buildings. They might seed some food crops - possibly letting them go wild.
Hmm. Yes, actually, that's what the early settlers in North America did - they took over the gardens abandoned by the natives that had died from the various plagues. There's nothing like a "wilderness" that used to be extensively cultivated.
In any case, you would have established test crops as part of your preparatory research, so you should know what would grow.
You might want to establish various "wild" food crops in different locations, so that some may survive if others fail. In particular, you might locate them at different places around the world where the growing seasons are different. That way, you wouldn't be relying on a single crop.
Once you finish doing the Johnny Appleseed thing, you might look at doing "real" agriculture. That would require you to bring more people in.
If you phase your arrival properly, you won't overrun your infrastructure and food production capabilities.
But, of course, a high tech colony can do this kind of thing too.
So would I, but the low tech advocates introduced it, and I was prepared to argue in their terms.
Sigh. You realise that this is an argument for high tech infrastructure, don't you? The low tech argument is to a large degree dependent on maintenance being difficult. In other words, it would be unfair for the high tech proponents to bring it up, since it's such a convenient handwave.
Alan B
Well, the chassis, control system, et al, do not by themselves consume fuel, and the fuel requirement to move them about for transport purposes is pretty negligible too. No-one builds a 1 horsepower tractor, either; a small garden tractor almost certainly can produce ten horsepower sustained and a lot more peak. It's probably more efficient (fuel-wise) to run a tractor off of alcohol than to use a horse.
More points: horses do require infrastructure. Specifically, they need to be shoed, and equipment such as plows needs to be maintained.
You cannot build a good quality plow without having a proper steel foundry, which is a large and moderately high tech (TL 5 or so) device, and requires fairly extensive mining operations to support. If you don't have steel manufacturing, an imported plow will be better quality and cheaper than one made with local iron by a local blacksmith.
I still put my money on the Jeep.
For those who don't know, horses require a great deal of maintenance, particularly those that are being worked or ridden. Feed and manure shoveling is only the beginning.
Again, I'd like to point out that the more non-Earth-norm or even non-human-terraformed a world is, the greater the investment even a single horse is. If a horse can't be put let to pasture to graze, then a lot of its utility goes the way of the road apple. When you're forced to either feed your colonists or feed their horses; hmmm, can you say "horse tartar?". And where's the big animal Vet on your passenger manifest?
Unlike a horse, intensive maintenance on a jeep is not a daily requirement. A jeep could be rigged to burn methane or alcohol, two easily produced fuels from organic waste, making fuel a non-issue. With a few spare parts, some tools, and maybe a machine shop, a jeep can last a long time.
For those who don't know, horses require a great deal of maintenance, particularly those that are being worked or ridden. Feed and manure shoveling is only the beginning.
Again, I'd like to point out that the more non-Earth-norm or even non-human-terraformed a world is, the greater the investment even a single horse is. If a horse can't be put let to pasture to graze, then a lot of its utility goes the way of the road apple. When you're forced to either feed your colonists or feed their horses; hmmm, can you say "horse tartar?". And where's the big animal Vet on your passenger manifest?
Unlike a horse, intensive maintenance on a jeep is not a daily requirement. A jeep could be rigged to burn methane or alcohol, two easily produced fuels from organic waste, making fuel a non-issue. With a few spare parts, some tools, and maybe a machine shop, a jeep can last a long time.
Maghwi wrote:
"Well, I got a couple of thoughts."
Sir,
Well, go right ahead and join the fun!
(snip of description of an exploitation colony vs. 'we'll be staying' colony)
"However, Assuming that the colony isn't funded by something with deep pockets,... (snip) ... won't be able to rely on a steady stream of imports from it's home world, I'd think you would need to plan on the colony being low tech and self sufficient..."
Sure, sounds goods to me.
"... until it has enough of a population base to have the specilized workers that are required to sustain a tech level above about 4."
Okay, let's stop at this point. Elsewhere in your post you mention a colony size of 1000 sophonts. What I'm trying to get across here is that 1000 people is nowhere near enough to sustain a tech level of 4. Period. Most everyone here is seriously underestimating the amount of work that needs to be done.
"I think the location would be the most important."
Naturally.
"It would have to be close to fresh water (A river or two, not a lake), near mineral resources (nice near-surface deposits preferred), and have plenty of farmland/pasture available. A nice big forest nearby would be good too, as well as a place to make a quarry for stone, or near limestone so you can make concrete. You would want to pick a spot that was geologically stable, and had decent weather."
Nice list. Leave anything out? Liquor stores? Pawn shops? Here's a little experiment for you; open an atlas of Earth and find a location that meets all the requirements you listed. Remember, all those nice bits your listed; quarried stone, fields, forests, surface mineral deposits of oh so many types, and all the rest need to be about one day's journey from your colony. Notice I measured the distance in days rather than kilometers because it will all depend on what sort of transportation you have. Feet? Think 20 km. Horses? Maybe 40 km. Remember, anything beyond feet; even horses, is going to require an infrastructure that most everyone in this thread continually underestimates. Don't forget, if you'll only be using 'feet', your porters won't be able to carry that much and they'll all need to EAT.
"If you were smart, you would have already done extensive surveys of the planet to locate sources of iron, copper, natural gas, coal, oil, uranium, etc, so when you did get the infrastructure to use them, you would know where to find them."
Sure, if you can afford the surveys. This is all going to be on the cheap, right? Also, there's a very BIG difference between orbital and airborne surveys and actually pinpointing where to DIG.
"The next thing you need is people. I wouldn't bother with less than 1000 people."
Try going up an order of magnitude at least, maybe two. Food production at TL4 and lower is labor intensive. All your 'specialists'; blacksmiths, miners, lumberjacks, quarrymen, etc. need to EAT.
"You would also need a lot of raw materials."
Yup and everyone producing those raw materials needs to EAT.
"The first year would be the hardest, since you probably won't have enough food production to keep up with the demand."
No. The second year will be the toughest after you've used up all the stuff you brought with yourself and are thrown back on your own resources.
"And the colonists are going to be spending a lot of time on construction projects. People need places to sleep."
Lumber and nails. Ever think about what it takes to make nails in the quantity you're talking about? Going to use wooden pegs instead? Okay, produce all the lumber you'll need. There's much, much more to that then just chopping down a tree. Bricks? Fine, let's talk raw materials for the bricks AND the mortar. Do you know what goes into a brick? Or where to find it? Oh, you'll also need to fire the bricks. Back to lumbering again.
"Roads need to be built. Drainage and sewage needs to be figured out."
And every hand involved in that won't be producing food.
"Population growth needs to be planned for."
That will take care of itself!
"You would need some kind of government to coordinate large scale activities and prioritize projects."
Sadly yes, although you won't be tackling any 'large scale activities' or major 'projects' as soon as you think. Maybe the NEXT generation will begin those.
"Also, one thing that's been bugging me is all this talk about gas."
Okay.
"I'd use something besides gasoline for fuel."
Sure. Tell us what.
"You can ferment just about anything organic if you try hard enough. Alcohol based engines can be pretty efficient."
Let's stop here again. Yes, alcohol engines can be efficient, but you won't be building any at TL4. Petroleum didn't win out over coal, alcohol, and the others because some big bad oil company stacked the deck. Petroleum won out because it was easy to gather (at first), easy to distill, and packed a bigger energy wallop than the other choices. With the weight of the engines you'll be building at TL4, you're going to need all the 'whallop' you'll need.
Now let's tackle fermenting stuff to get alcochol. You'll need to grow and harvest (or gather from the wild) enough biomass. The you'll need to heat it in tanks, collect the runoff, and distill that a few times. You'll need hands to supply the biomass, hands to build the tanks, hands to supply the materials to build the tanks, hands to tend the tanks, hands to supply the fuel to distill the runoff, hands to build the piping, hands to... well, hopefully you've got the idea now.
"They can not only run cars, but they can also make electricity. There is also wind and water power, which you can use to make electricity. Heck, you can use steam power to produce electricity,..."
Got any idea about how much copper WIRE goes into a generator or motor? (If you have a few dozen motors/generators, start with KILOMETERS) Or how much refined copper is needed to draw that wire? Or how much ore is needed to create the refined copper? Or the energy and material needs your copper refining process will require? Or how many workers you'll need to exploit the ore body? Or the coal pit? Or the refinery? Or the wire shop? Or the winding shop where you make the motors and generators?
Now let's talk about steam. Have any idea about how to build a boiler that will be A) powerful enough to power your generators and B) not blow up and kill the operators every month? Ditto for the stema piping. Next question, pistons or turbines? Both will need lubrication and... ooops... we're back to petroleum again. You're boiler is going to be a fuel hog too. Look up how many cords of wood those primitive TL4 Mississippi steamboats burned each day. Ever cut and stack cord wood? By hand? Remember, you won't be using any TL4 chainsaws.
"If you have power, then you are one big step closer to being self sufficient."
Sure thing. IF you can build the generating equipment in the first place AND keep it supplied.
"The nice thing about these engines is that they are low maintence and easy to fix. You can make an engine that can be maintained at a lower TL than was used to produce it."
Right. Easy to fix huh? Maintained at a lower TL? Ever rewind a generator? Ever do it correctly? You'll need to do so in order to produce the right 'juice' otherwise you'll burn out all you motors. Remember, you'll be producing AC if you're planning on transmitting the juice more than a kilometer or so. By the way, know how to build a transformer? Know what raw and refined materials go into one? Don't worry. It's easy 'cause you brought along your encyclopedia. Right.
"At TL 12, you could probably make an engine out of handwavium that is designed with the expectation of wear that will last a few hundred years if you remember to put a cup of vegetable oil in it every few months. Hopefully by that time it wears out, you'll be making your own engines."
Well, if we're going to apply handwavium the whole exercise, why not just bring along nanotech 'Santa Claus' machine, shovel sand in one and, get hot fudge sundaes out the other end.
Even at 'just' TL4, there one HELL of a lot of work that needs doing and your colony simply won't have the hands to do it.
Sincerely,
Larsen
"Well, I got a couple of thoughts."
Sir,
Well, go right ahead and join the fun!
(snip of description of an exploitation colony vs. 'we'll be staying' colony)
"However, Assuming that the colony isn't funded by something with deep pockets,... (snip) ... won't be able to rely on a steady stream of imports from it's home world, I'd think you would need to plan on the colony being low tech and self sufficient..."
Sure, sounds goods to me.
"... until it has enough of a population base to have the specilized workers that are required to sustain a tech level above about 4."
Okay, let's stop at this point. Elsewhere in your post you mention a colony size of 1000 sophonts. What I'm trying to get across here is that 1000 people is nowhere near enough to sustain a tech level of 4. Period. Most everyone here is seriously underestimating the amount of work that needs to be done.
"I think the location would be the most important."
Naturally.
"It would have to be close to fresh water (A river or two, not a lake), near mineral resources (nice near-surface deposits preferred), and have plenty of farmland/pasture available. A nice big forest nearby would be good too, as well as a place to make a quarry for stone, or near limestone so you can make concrete. You would want to pick a spot that was geologically stable, and had decent weather."
Nice list. Leave anything out? Liquor stores? Pawn shops? Here's a little experiment for you; open an atlas of Earth and find a location that meets all the requirements you listed. Remember, all those nice bits your listed; quarried stone, fields, forests, surface mineral deposits of oh so many types, and all the rest need to be about one day's journey from your colony. Notice I measured the distance in days rather than kilometers because it will all depend on what sort of transportation you have. Feet? Think 20 km. Horses? Maybe 40 km. Remember, anything beyond feet; even horses, is going to require an infrastructure that most everyone in this thread continually underestimates. Don't forget, if you'll only be using 'feet', your porters won't be able to carry that much and they'll all need to EAT.
"If you were smart, you would have already done extensive surveys of the planet to locate sources of iron, copper, natural gas, coal, oil, uranium, etc, so when you did get the infrastructure to use them, you would know where to find them."
Sure, if you can afford the surveys. This is all going to be on the cheap, right? Also, there's a very BIG difference between orbital and airborne surveys and actually pinpointing where to DIG.
"The next thing you need is people. I wouldn't bother with less than 1000 people."
Try going up an order of magnitude at least, maybe two. Food production at TL4 and lower is labor intensive. All your 'specialists'; blacksmiths, miners, lumberjacks, quarrymen, etc. need to EAT.
"You would also need a lot of raw materials."
Yup and everyone producing those raw materials needs to EAT.
"The first year would be the hardest, since you probably won't have enough food production to keep up with the demand."
No. The second year will be the toughest after you've used up all the stuff you brought with yourself and are thrown back on your own resources.
"And the colonists are going to be spending a lot of time on construction projects. People need places to sleep."
Lumber and nails. Ever think about what it takes to make nails in the quantity you're talking about? Going to use wooden pegs instead? Okay, produce all the lumber you'll need. There's much, much more to that then just chopping down a tree. Bricks? Fine, let's talk raw materials for the bricks AND the mortar. Do you know what goes into a brick? Or where to find it? Oh, you'll also need to fire the bricks. Back to lumbering again.
"Roads need to be built. Drainage and sewage needs to be figured out."
And every hand involved in that won't be producing food.
"Population growth needs to be planned for."
That will take care of itself!
"You would need some kind of government to coordinate large scale activities and prioritize projects."
Sadly yes, although you won't be tackling any 'large scale activities' or major 'projects' as soon as you think. Maybe the NEXT generation will begin those.
"Also, one thing that's been bugging me is all this talk about gas."
Okay.
"I'd use something besides gasoline for fuel."
Sure. Tell us what.
"You can ferment just about anything organic if you try hard enough. Alcohol based engines can be pretty efficient."
Let's stop here again. Yes, alcohol engines can be efficient, but you won't be building any at TL4. Petroleum didn't win out over coal, alcohol, and the others because some big bad oil company stacked the deck. Petroleum won out because it was easy to gather (at first), easy to distill, and packed a bigger energy wallop than the other choices. With the weight of the engines you'll be building at TL4, you're going to need all the 'whallop' you'll need.
Now let's tackle fermenting stuff to get alcochol. You'll need to grow and harvest (or gather from the wild) enough biomass. The you'll need to heat it in tanks, collect the runoff, and distill that a few times. You'll need hands to supply the biomass, hands to build the tanks, hands to supply the materials to build the tanks, hands to tend the tanks, hands to supply the fuel to distill the runoff, hands to build the piping, hands to... well, hopefully you've got the idea now.
"They can not only run cars, but they can also make electricity. There is also wind and water power, which you can use to make electricity. Heck, you can use steam power to produce electricity,..."
Got any idea about how much copper WIRE goes into a generator or motor? (If you have a few dozen motors/generators, start with KILOMETERS) Or how much refined copper is needed to draw that wire? Or how much ore is needed to create the refined copper? Or the energy and material needs your copper refining process will require? Or how many workers you'll need to exploit the ore body? Or the coal pit? Or the refinery? Or the wire shop? Or the winding shop where you make the motors and generators?
Now let's talk about steam. Have any idea about how to build a boiler that will be A) powerful enough to power your generators and B) not blow up and kill the operators every month? Ditto for the stema piping. Next question, pistons or turbines? Both will need lubrication and... ooops... we're back to petroleum again. You're boiler is going to be a fuel hog too. Look up how many cords of wood those primitive TL4 Mississippi steamboats burned each day. Ever cut and stack cord wood? By hand? Remember, you won't be using any TL4 chainsaws.
"If you have power, then you are one big step closer to being self sufficient."
Sure thing. IF you can build the generating equipment in the first place AND keep it supplied.
"The nice thing about these engines is that they are low maintence and easy to fix. You can make an engine that can be maintained at a lower TL than was used to produce it."
Right. Easy to fix huh? Maintained at a lower TL? Ever rewind a generator? Ever do it correctly? You'll need to do so in order to produce the right 'juice' otherwise you'll burn out all you motors. Remember, you'll be producing AC if you're planning on transmitting the juice more than a kilometer or so. By the way, know how to build a transformer? Know what raw and refined materials go into one? Don't worry. It's easy 'cause you brought along your encyclopedia. Right.
"At TL 12, you could probably make an engine out of handwavium that is designed with the expectation of wear that will last a few hundred years if you remember to put a cup of vegetable oil in it every few months. Hopefully by that time it wears out, you'll be making your own engines."
Well, if we're going to apply handwavium the whole exercise, why not just bring along nanotech 'Santa Claus' machine, shovel sand in one and, get hot fudge sundaes out the other end.
Even at 'just' TL4, there one HELL of a lot of work that needs doing and your colony simply won't have the hands to do it.
Sincerely,
Larsen
In my current game I have a low tech world where the Charismatic Dictator is trying to move to Stellar-level tech without going through the 'nasty industrial revolution' or 'dependency on outworld part suppliers' things. The only internal combustion engines on the planet are owned by the government and used to create the infrastructure for a fusion plant and are fueled with alcohol distilled from grain-crops. This allows a nice export industry (along with tourism) selling exotic beverages to bring in hard Imperial Credits...
Heyo Mr. Larsen!
"Okay, let's stop at this point."
Okie.
"Elsewhere in your post you mention a colony size of 1000 sophonts. What I'm trying to get across here is that 1000 people is nowhere near enough to sustain a tech level of 4. Period. Most everyone here is seriously underestimating the amount of work that needs to be done. "
I believe I said "I wouldn't bother with less than 1000 people." That implies more is better. But you're not going to move 10,000 or 100,000 people on the cheap are you? A migration of that size is going to have to be sponsered by somebody with deep pockets, and if they got deep pockets, then your problems are solved. It's not like they can hop on a free trader and make it all in one trip. It would require either a honking big ship to move that many people and 1 year of supplies, or a lot of trips. And it's unlikely that they are just going to the next sector over. I don't think it would be economically feasable to move that many people without deep pockets.
"Nice list."
Thanks.
"open an atlas of Earth and find a location that meets all the requirements you listed."
Well, first off, no Atlas I know of goes into that much detail. When you have the entire planet to choose from, there is bound to be someplace that meets most of those requirements. If I had to pick a spot on Earth, and remember, we're talking virgin territory here, I'd probably pick someplace in the Fertile Crescent. I'm not a geography major, but I believe that area offers most of what would be needed. It doesn't have to be within a day's journey either. Just close.
"Sure, if you can afford the surveys. This is all going to be on the cheap, right? Also, there's a very BIG difference between orbital and airborne surveys and actually pinpointing where to DIG."
You don't commit that many lives to a colonization attempt without doing your homework first. If you don't have a really clear picture of what to expect when you get there, you are probably going to fail. You look at the data from your orbital surveys, you choose likely spots, you get on the ground and figure out which one is the best. And you do that before the colonists even leave home. It's not a matter of "we'll just figure it out when we get there". How long are you going to keep them expensive colony ships in orbit while your survey team chooses a spot? No, you would do the research on the planet first.
"Food production at TL4 and lower is labor intensive. All your 'specialists'; blacksmiths, miners, lumberjacks, quarrymen, etc. need to EAT."
Yes they do need to eat. I think you are overestimating how much labor it takes with engineered crops and a few combines. YES I KNOW they will eventually break or run out of gas. But you use them for as long as possible, until you HAVE the infrastructure to sustain the colony. It might take a generation, but if you use quality parts, and renewable fuel soruces, you can probably make them last long enough.
"No. The second year will be the toughest after you've used up all the stuff you brought with yourself and are thrown back on your own resources."
Ok, I'll grant you that point. But a years worth of food? For that many people? Even MRE's take up space. I know a family that keeps a years worth of food in their pantry. It's A LOT of food. Now multiply that by 1000 or 10,000?? How many ships is this gonna take? How much is it going to cost? Deep Pockets is rearing it's ugly head again. It's more likely they will have less than 6 months worth, and they will start on the food production as soon as possible.
"Lumber and nails."
Again, you bring your hi-tech solar powered hand tools (by Craftsman
) or whatever and you mow down the nearby forrest. Eventually they will fail, but again, you use them to build your infrastructure. They are disposable.
"Let's stop here again. Yes, alcohol engines can be efficient, but you won't be building any at TL4."
From the CT: TL 4 ciria 1860 to 1900. The first gasoline powered cars came out in the 1890's I believe. Remember that the colony knows about higher tech than 4, but they can only make things at 4. I could design an efficient engine with the information that I have available to me now at TL 8 that could be built using only TL 4 tools. The R&D has already been done.
The colonists aren't going to settle a world using only TL 3-4 tools. This would be a planned slide from TL 12 or so down to TL 4ish. It won't happen the second they step off the ship. It might take a few generations. They have to use that time to 1) breed, and 2) build infrastructure so they can get back up to higher TL's that much faster. They aren't going to walk off the ship and suddenly forget what a fusion plant is. (And if they do, then I say they deserve to fail)
"Now let's tackle fermenting stuff to get alcochol."
Is that any more difficult than drilling for oil that may or may not be there? Of course, if you did the survey right, then you would know. At least you KNOW there will be biomass available, and alcohol has other uses as well.
"Got any idea about how much copper WIRE goes into a generator or motor? "
Yes. I do. I even know what it takes to draw wire. Believe me, this is one of those things you want to bring with you in big spools if you can. Or bring the finished motors with you so you can make the parts you need when you can. You need a lot of magnets too.
"Right. Easy to fix huh? Maintained at a lower TL? Ever rewind a generator? Ever do it correctly? You'll need to do so in order to produce the right 'juice' otherwise you'll burn out all you motors. Remember, you'll be producing AC if you're planning on transmitting the juice more than a kilometer or so. By the way, know how to build a transformer? Know what raw and refined materials go into one? Don't worry. It's easy 'cause you brought along your encyclopedia. Right."
So, you would start a colony without a bunch of people who know how this stuff works? No wonder you expect it to fail. I would bring along a few smart people in *my* colonization attempt. They come in handy.
"Well, if we're going to apply handwavium the whole exercise, why not just bring along nanotech 'Santa Claus' machine, shovel sand in one and, get hot fudge sundaes out the other end."
Heh, finally something I agree with. Of COURSE I'm going to bring that along! I love sundaes! It WILL break sooner or later. The question is, did you get the most out of it before it broke?
"Even at 'just' TL4, there one HELL of a lot of work that needs doing and your colony simply won't have the hands to do it."
By the time they are down to TL4, they should have the hands.
"Okay, let's stop at this point."
Okie.
"Elsewhere in your post you mention a colony size of 1000 sophonts. What I'm trying to get across here is that 1000 people is nowhere near enough to sustain a tech level of 4. Period. Most everyone here is seriously underestimating the amount of work that needs to be done. "
I believe I said "I wouldn't bother with less than 1000 people." That implies more is better. But you're not going to move 10,000 or 100,000 people on the cheap are you? A migration of that size is going to have to be sponsered by somebody with deep pockets, and if they got deep pockets, then your problems are solved. It's not like they can hop on a free trader and make it all in one trip. It would require either a honking big ship to move that many people and 1 year of supplies, or a lot of trips. And it's unlikely that they are just going to the next sector over. I don't think it would be economically feasable to move that many people without deep pockets.
"Nice list."
Thanks.
"open an atlas of Earth and find a location that meets all the requirements you listed."
Well, first off, no Atlas I know of goes into that much detail. When you have the entire planet to choose from, there is bound to be someplace that meets most of those requirements. If I had to pick a spot on Earth, and remember, we're talking virgin territory here, I'd probably pick someplace in the Fertile Crescent. I'm not a geography major, but I believe that area offers most of what would be needed. It doesn't have to be within a day's journey either. Just close.
"Sure, if you can afford the surveys. This is all going to be on the cheap, right? Also, there's a very BIG difference between orbital and airborne surveys and actually pinpointing where to DIG."
You don't commit that many lives to a colonization attempt without doing your homework first. If you don't have a really clear picture of what to expect when you get there, you are probably going to fail. You look at the data from your orbital surveys, you choose likely spots, you get on the ground and figure out which one is the best. And you do that before the colonists even leave home. It's not a matter of "we'll just figure it out when we get there". How long are you going to keep them expensive colony ships in orbit while your survey team chooses a spot? No, you would do the research on the planet first.
"Food production at TL4 and lower is labor intensive. All your 'specialists'; blacksmiths, miners, lumberjacks, quarrymen, etc. need to EAT."
Yes they do need to eat. I think you are overestimating how much labor it takes with engineered crops and a few combines. YES I KNOW they will eventually break or run out of gas. But you use them for as long as possible, until you HAVE the infrastructure to sustain the colony. It might take a generation, but if you use quality parts, and renewable fuel soruces, you can probably make them last long enough.
"No. The second year will be the toughest after you've used up all the stuff you brought with yourself and are thrown back on your own resources."
Ok, I'll grant you that point. But a years worth of food? For that many people? Even MRE's take up space. I know a family that keeps a years worth of food in their pantry. It's A LOT of food. Now multiply that by 1000 or 10,000?? How many ships is this gonna take? How much is it going to cost? Deep Pockets is rearing it's ugly head again. It's more likely they will have less than 6 months worth, and they will start on the food production as soon as possible.
"Lumber and nails."
Again, you bring your hi-tech solar powered hand tools (by Craftsman
"Let's stop here again. Yes, alcohol engines can be efficient, but you won't be building any at TL4."
From the CT: TL 4 ciria 1860 to 1900. The first gasoline powered cars came out in the 1890's I believe. Remember that the colony knows about higher tech than 4, but they can only make things at 4. I could design an efficient engine with the information that I have available to me now at TL 8 that could be built using only TL 4 tools. The R&D has already been done.
The colonists aren't going to settle a world using only TL 3-4 tools. This would be a planned slide from TL 12 or so down to TL 4ish. It won't happen the second they step off the ship. It might take a few generations. They have to use that time to 1) breed, and 2) build infrastructure so they can get back up to higher TL's that much faster. They aren't going to walk off the ship and suddenly forget what a fusion plant is. (And if they do, then I say they deserve to fail)
"Now let's tackle fermenting stuff to get alcochol."
Is that any more difficult than drilling for oil that may or may not be there? Of course, if you did the survey right, then you would know. At least you KNOW there will be biomass available, and alcohol has other uses as well.
"Got any idea about how much copper WIRE goes into a generator or motor? "
Yes. I do. I even know what it takes to draw wire. Believe me, this is one of those things you want to bring with you in big spools if you can. Or bring the finished motors with you so you can make the parts you need when you can. You need a lot of magnets too.
"Right. Easy to fix huh? Maintained at a lower TL? Ever rewind a generator? Ever do it correctly? You'll need to do so in order to produce the right 'juice' otherwise you'll burn out all you motors. Remember, you'll be producing AC if you're planning on transmitting the juice more than a kilometer or so. By the way, know how to build a transformer? Know what raw and refined materials go into one? Don't worry. It's easy 'cause you brought along your encyclopedia. Right."
So, you would start a colony without a bunch of people who know how this stuff works? No wonder you expect it to fail. I would bring along a few smart people in *my* colonization attempt. They come in handy.
"Well, if we're going to apply handwavium the whole exercise, why not just bring along nanotech 'Santa Claus' machine, shovel sand in one and, get hot fudge sundaes out the other end."
Heh, finally something I agree with. Of COURSE I'm going to bring that along! I love sundaes! It WILL break sooner or later. The question is, did you get the most out of it before it broke?
"Even at 'just' TL4, there one HELL of a lot of work that needs doing and your colony simply won't have the hands to do it."
By the time they are down to TL4, they should have the hands.
Heyo Alan!
Well, if they want subsistence level utopia, then they are welcome to it. All you need is some seeds and maybe an axe.
Point taken. I'm sure I could find as much adventure in a megacorp mining installation as I could anyplace else. The game is what you make of it. With a good GM, you can find adventure anywhere.
Now there's a good idea. Actually a lot of good ideas. My colonization plan will strongly advocate pre-seeding. The more prep work you do before the main group of colonists show up, the better.
Heh. Never argue on anyone's terms but your own. Makes things more lively!
Yes and no. I think the high-tech and the low-tech proponets both have it wrong. People are going to bring the best equipment available along with them, knowing it's going to fail eventually. But they are going to use it for as long as possible to do as much as possible to make it so the lives of future generations won't be spent toiling in the mud. If things go right, about the time that stuff starts to fail, the colony will have enough infrastructure and manpower to start the process of bootstrapping themselves back to their original tech level.
This is a long way from claiming you'll set up a self-sufficient colony anywhere on the short term. Certainly, there are parts you can send to the the colony that, while nearly impossible to replicate with available tech, will be good for 20 years or more. Eventually, however, those things will be worn out -- and when that time comes, you need to be able to do something instead. And, if you want more than a very primitive technology, that means big. A suggested value: minimum PR of 4 + TL/2; TL 7 requires PR 7.5, or 30 million people.
If heavily used, a few years at best.Originally posted by Maghwi:
Again, you bring your hi-tech solar powered hand tools (by Craftsman) or whatever and you mow down the nearby forrest. Eventually they will fail, but again, you use them to build your infrastructure. They are disposable.
Error in assumptions here. I was subconsciously thinking in terms of GURPS TLs, which makes TL 4 start more around 1700. In any case, you're not going to have TL 4 without a huge colony, TL 1 is more likely.
Basically, without the ability to make high quality steel, which requires a full-scale foundry and extensive mining operations, you aren't going to be making engines that are safe, reliable, and reasonable in weight.
Drakon
SOC-14 1K
Again, we may be talking different languages here. When you talk of the interconnected web of production, there is nothing there I can honestly disagree with. However, the question is what is essential for a society. Leaving the technical advancment aside for a moment, I don't see a lot of this that is essential for a working society, a collection of persons trying to live.
What I see as necessary for a society have to with the mental constructs more than the physical. Yes, there is a feedback loop between technology and the society or culture that created it, and the issues of the lack of labor and infrastrucure are interesting to explore. But to get a bunch of people to form a society, has more to do with the mental constructs rather than the physical.
You need a common language, as a means of communicating amongst the society members. The internet, and other forms of telecommunications are extremely helpful in this reguard, but without a commonality in language, we'd all be babbling at each other. And it would be impossible to organize, well anything.
You need commonalities in societal mores, norms of behavior. This means you need laws, a means of identifying and punishing, or removing, transgressor, criminals or "sinners". Other institutions help facilitate this, such as religion has in the past.
A commonality in narrative also seems to be important to build a society. I am not sure if this is a requirement, or a natural result of an already formed society, but I do see this prevalent in cultures throughout the world.
To be honest, I have spent my time just defending the idea of self sufficiency for a colony, without having had time to explored all the details of just what a machine shop would entail. It was never meant as the only solution, but a backup in case, for what ever reason, the home world is not able to make its shipments on time.
I see the maintenence of the tech level as secondary to the survival of the colonists and the colony. But I have run into opposition, which I find rather odd, for making the colony itself as self sufficient as humanly possible. Some seem to think that reliance on the home world is no problem. I see it as a great risk, and potential means of political control.
So we get back to the question of what is required for a colony. I still think that a colony should be as self sufficient as possible under the local conditions. What is required for that self sufficiency is only indirectly related to the tech level present on the colony, and reliance on higher tech can end endangering the colony, should such high tech items not be field repair/replaceable, or one has to wait for a parts shipment from the home world.
Will "Santa's workshop" be economically efficient for any job? Again, that comes down to what the alternative is. If the alternative is letting your high tech air raft rust, awaiting parts that are backordered light years away, it can be far more effective than anything else.
As I mentioned before, when talking about society, I see the mental constructs (morality, law, language) as being central. Getting the members to communicate, based on commonalities of ideas, and generally ageed upon set of rules for interpersonal interactions.
But since we are talking about biological critters, the colonists are going to require 1) air, 2) water 3) food as a minimum. They will also need shelter, (from extremes in temperture, possibly pressure and predators) and some form of sanitation. But this latter requirement can, at least in the early stages be satisfied simply by segregating the local stream (river, creeek) into three zones, one for drinking water, one for bathing, or washing implements, and another for waste elimination. Higher population levels may need something more sophisicated, but rememeber we are starting here with a few colonists.
Very good point. You need larger populations, or more efficient agriculture in order to keep those full time professionals alive. But a colony is going to have a manpower shortage from the beginning, so it is going to have to do without a lot of things. As long as it is the 'right' things they are doing without, there is no problem. If it is something related to the necessities of life, you got a problem. You have an increased risk of failure, and death of the colonists.
And that has been my main point all along. It is not a bad thing for a colony to go with a lower tech level. Actually, the more I think about it, I think you will see a lot of examples of the thing I tried to illustrate with my Bermuda rig versus square sail example. That a colony has a better chance of surviving if it discards a lot of the high tech stuff and goes with lower tech solutions.
This I am not convinced of. We briefly touched on food production. We are seeing today genetically modified grains and serials that have far higher yeilds, better pest resistence, and is even more healthy to eat, than in the past. The cool thing about biological solutions is that they can be self sufficient, self replicating and self repairing.
As to the machine shop idea: Design considerations have to take into account the fact that you are essentially dumping it in the wilds someplace. Mining requirements for raw materials would obviously be needed. Maintenence should be free from off world support. This will require trained technicians, and probably redundancy in equipment, such that the breakdown of any particular piece of gear in the workshop does not preclude repair of itself. (Obviously two such workshops will probably satisfy that requirment easily.)
But the general idea is that it would require nothing but mining support for its input. Maybe farming if the materials you are trying to create require biological materials, but as you need to farm anyway to take care of the food problem, that is not as big a deal.
Drakon
SOC-14 1K
Not sure that counts as "unfair" The goal is (for me) to find the things needed to make a self sufficient colony. The reason I have advocated going low tech, is that it is more self sufficient to maintain. If you got a device that 1) aids the colony in keeping it alive, healthy and functioning, 2) can be maintained out in the wild, fair or not, use it.
Going low tech, right tech or bio tech are all means to an end. Not goals in and of themselves, except perhaps to the Church of Cousin Marriage.
And BTW, Not really a city boy. Small town USA, surrounded by farm country. Anthony was right. Murphy's law rules farming.
- Status
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