BCS Combat and Design

[HG_B]

But there's insulation in the hull to create a survivable space inside, so the latent head shouldn't be leaking out,

Yes, it eventually gets out. If it didn't the inside of the ship would melt, literally. It is inescapable physics. Too complicated for me to want to type up. Here is a good write up to read. http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewardetect.php

 

[aramis]

But there's insulation in the hull to create a survivable space inside, so the latent head shouldn't be leaking out, unless the system is designed to add an equal amount of heat to the environment as is lost, which if it's a lot of loss could desiccate the unprotected passengers within. If the insulating properties of the hull were that poor, then when the vessel wasn't in a shadow it'd bake everyone inside pretty quickly without sufficient cooling wouldn't it? So, to avoid these significant temperature changes inside a hull, what about insulating it? That in turn would reduce its latent IR signature. Have I missed something really obvious here or does this make sense and hold water?

How much waste heat will the PP generate? If it was too much, wouldn't it fry the people in the ship? If this was the case why have deckplans been prepared for decades showing the PP in a space that crew can walk around in, often in the same location as the M and J drives? Or is there some sort of insulation involved somewhere?

If the latent heat isn't leaking out, then everyone dies inside as they cook from their own internal processes. Even before accounting for the waste heat from all the internal systems.

 

[rancke]

If the latent heat isn't leaking out, then everyone dies inside as they cook from their own internal processes. Even before accounting for the waste heat from all the internal systems.

You're saying that humans are low-powered heating devices in themselves, right?


Hans

 

[Ulsyus]

Okay, badly worded on my part, the insulation wouldn't be perfect, given. But the amounts of energy in that regard are small compared to what's been talked about for reactors and drives and such.

I know that some fiction has power plants on a vessel built away from the part inhabited by the crew, but that's not the case in Traveller.

 

[aramis]

You're saying that humans are low-powered heating devices in themselves, right?


Hans

If they weren't, they wouldn't be mammals.

 

[rancke]

If they weren't, they wouldn't be mammals.

I wasn't challenging you, I agree completely.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

Okay, badly worded on my part, the insulation wouldn't be perfect, given. But the amounts of energy in that regard are small compared to what's been talked about for reactors and drives and such.

It's still enough heat to light up the ship. 285 Kelvin vs. the 3 K of the background. You can't hide.

 

[mike wightman]

The heat issue is only explainable by the existence of a magical heat sink. Which is of such trivial simplicity it doesn't even warrant a mention.
That said, heat is the kinetic movement of particles and the radiated EMS radiation.
It could be that the artificial gravity on a ship and the acceleration compensation field slow particle movement to such a degree that all the waste heat is used to speed them up again.

 

[HG_B]

The heat issue is only explainable by the existence of a magical heat sink. Which is of such trivial simplicity it doesn't even warrant a mention.

:file_21::file_21:

Exactly the opposite. Magic heat sinks means being able to build perpetual motion machines. It also means ignoring a HUGE area of physics. No, RAW does NOT point to that. It would be a house rule only.

 

[rancke]

Exactly the opposite. Magic heat sinks means being able to build perpetual motion machines. It also means ignoring a HUGE area of physics.

No more than a submarine is able to power a PM because it can use water for coolant. Such a subspace heat sink would simply enables a spaceship to get rid of heat by convection into subspace rather than being restricted to radiation into normal space.

No, RAW does NOT point to that. It would be a house rule only.

But Mike is right about there being no other possible explanation. It's not an official Traveller explanation, true, but then, there is no official Traveller explanation. The problem is simply ignored, something that's feasible with a fictional universe but would not work in a real universe (nor a realistic fictional universe).


Hans

Hans

 

[HG_B]

But Mike is right about there being no other possible explanation. It's not an official Traveller explanation, true, but then, there is no official Traveller explanation.

There doesn't need to be. There is nothing in the rules I've read where Marc said that that area of thermodynamics was changed in Trav and that spaceships didn't radiate IR but were kept at near absolute zero (how is the crew alive inside an environment of that temp? Can you explain? You DO realize that if you pump enough heat into "subpace" so that you don';t radiate that you have made the ENTIRE ship that cold?

MT passive sensor ranges confirms that ships do radiate.

Also, you will need a rule section on this new access to another dimension...

 

[mike wightman]

So how do you explain where all the waste heat goes from a multi gigawatt fusion reactor?

 

[HG_B]

So how do you explain where all the waste heat goes from a multi gigawatt fusion reactor?

Considering that the ships carry 99% more fuel than is needed, only requires plain H2 and not rare isotopes, you are looking at 99% of the "fuel" being used as expelled coolant.

That's the only reasonable explanation for the amount of L-Hyd being used. You are also probably looking at a form of P-P "cold fusion" via an induced tunneling process. Perhaps only the pp I branch too given the lowered temp range being postulated.

[it could be that T5 answered all these questions but, I haven't looked at it in over a year]

 

[rancke]

Considering that the ships carry 99% more fuel than is needed, only requires plain H2 and not rare isotopes, you are looking at 99% of the "fuel" being used as expelled coolant.

That's the only reasonable explanation for the amount of L-Hyd being used. You are also probably looking at a form of P-P "cold fusion" via an induced tunneling process. Perhaps only the pp I branch too given the lowered temp range being postulated.

Except that it's not a reasonable explanation, because there are substances far better suited to be used as coolants, such as water. With volume being the critical factor in jump travel, it would be asinine to use LHyd as coolant.


Hans

 

[rancke]

There doesn't need to be. There is nothing in the rules I've read where Marc said that that area of thermodynamics was changed in Trav and that spaceships didn't radiate IR but were kept at near absolute zero (how is the crew alive inside an environment of that temp? Can you explain? You DO realize that if you pump enough heat into "subpace" so that you don';t radiate that you have made the ENTIRE ship that cold?

No, I don't realize that because it's not true. As soon as you have someplace to dump the heat, you can direct it away from the surface and still keep the interior at a temperature suitable for humans.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

As soon as you have someplace to dump the heat, you can direct it away from the surface and still keep the interior at a temperature suitable for humans.


Hans

Really? Not per physics as we understand it. Please explain how you prevent thermodynamic equilibrium without cooling the cabin next to the hull where the people are also. (we do know how to pump heat already and we just add the magic heat sink and you STILL get frozen people)

Otherwise, you are now FIRMLY in the magic camp and have left Sci-Fi in the dust!

You have also yet to show where in the rules it indicates that there is a hitherto hidden, magic, extra-dimensional heat sink.

I await both explanations for the house rules you are proposing be incorporated into the RAW.

p.s. this also means no capacitors needs for a Black globe. You just dump the energy into the magical, mystical, extra-dimensional sink. :CoW:

 

[rancke]

Really? Not per physics as we understand it. Please explain how you prevent thermodynamic equilibrium without cooling the cabin next to the hull where the people are also. (we do know how to pump heat already and we just add the magic heat sink and you STILL get frozen people)

You don't get a thermodynamic equillibrium as long as you have a power plant going full blast. And anyone who has ever seen a refrigerator knows that it's possible to keep one part of a room cold and the other part warm. It's hardly rocket science. The only problem in space is how to get rid of the heat.

Otherwise, you are now FIRMLY in the magic camp and have left Sci-Fi in the dust!

Impossible physics is quite common in SF. It's a puzzlingly common fallacy that impossible physics is the same as magic. SF type "magic" has nothing to do with fantasy type magic.

You have also yet to show where in the rules it indicates that there is a hitherto hidden, magic, extra-dimensional heat sink.

You've been told already. It's the part where a ship's power plant produces far more power than can be gotten rid of by radiation alone.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

You've been told already. It's the part where a ship's power plant produces far more power than can be gotten rid of by radiation alone.


Hans

Wrong. Look at the amount of excess L-hyd carried by trav ships. Also, the you are going to require massive refridge units in addition to your PP specs. Where are they?

Also, your proposal also means no capacitors needed for Black Globes. CLEARLY not the case so your magic heat sink it out per RAW.

 

[rancke]

WRONG. Look at the amount of excess L-hyd carried by trav ships.

I've looked. Since we know that there are far more efficient coolants, it's obviously not being used for that purpose.

Also, your proposal also means no capacitors needed for Black Globes. CLEARLY not the case so your magic heat sink it out per RAW.

Of course it is. Molten blobs of spaceship are out by the RAW too. That doesn't mean the RAW doesn't imply molten blobs of spaceship. If you have a discrepancy, it's not possible to resolve it without contradicting something. That's why there's a discrepancy in the first place.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

I've looked. Since we know that there are far more efficient coolants, it's obviously not being used for that purpose.

Wrong. That would suppose that it [tons of L-hyd] is instead just jettisoned without use.

Of course it is. Molten blobs of spaceship are out by the RAW too.

Since I just gave the means of cooling via something that IS in the rules [rather than something that is PROHIBITED in RAW like what you propose] you are now making ZERO amount of sense.

Address why Black globes need capacitors by RAW when the presence of magic heat sink preclude needing them.

Lex parsimoniae wins again.