What's Coming in T5

[hunter]

Systems with "proper" experience rules usually end up turning PCs into superheroes; I like the fact that in Traveller you stay a normal person.

Normal people learn from experience (well usually...).

 

[Rover]

The problem with experience in Traveller is that you can't make it more efficient than chargen (ie ~1pt/year).

Systems with "proper" experience rules usually end up turning PCs into superheroes; I like the fact that in Traveller you stay a normal person.

That really depends on the system. IIRC the old top secret game had a good method of dividing the XP you earned by your level so the rate of progression slowed down.

There are ways that characters can improve without becoming superheroes. I mean there is normal, then there is normal. I know I have a lot more skills and experience now than when I graduated college. I developed those through everyday living.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Yes, but chargen happens after college, Rover.... :smirk:

 

[Judas Iscariot]

Fritz,

I am not fond of the "'droid" designation, nor the us of the proper "Android" or "Gynoid" (also, notice that only the male form actually conforms to the "'droid" form, as the prefix is actually "Andr" (From Andros)

I will dig around some of my professors and collegues labs and see what terms they can come up with...

 

[Judas Iscariot]

Also,

About my involvement with Tech...

I do not take my predictions from Sci-fi, but from engineers working in the various fields. I have been lucky to have such people since the early days of Traveller. Most have accurately predicted many things we now take for granted (It helped that a couple of them are on the patent for some of those things): Cell-Phones, Ubiquitous computing, wireless networking, etc...

I can understand if Traveller wants to remain as a "Golden Age of Sci-Fi" game, but if it does... It should really remove the "Sci-Fi" from its name as it will then be a "Retro-Fantasy" game.. Just like what we call "Victorian Sci-Fi"

As for the minis...

I know full well what sells. 28mm is more popular among people, but that doesn't mean that the same miniatures cannot be produced in other scales (And I am tired of having to point this out)... If the miniatures are going to be produced as plastics or are CAD designed, then it is really a waste of capital to not make them availale in other scales... You cannot sell what you do not have, and sales of 28mm and 15mm will MORE than make up for any smaller sales of 6mm (or 10mm) figures.

If the lines were promoted correctly, there would be no need to make up for short sales anyway.

Also, I do not want to have to use Proxies. I, and many others, just won't use proxies.. I realize that we are strange that way, but those who use Proxies would probably rather buy "official" figures than proxies anyway...

It may not happen now, or with Traveller (although it would be nice to see them lead the way in this), but eventually, it will be hard to NOT produce a line of miniatures in whatever scale a customer demands. Rapid Prototyping and other 3D Instantation technologies are developing too fast to ignore, and eventually they will destroy the current model of miniature manufacturing as a hobby industry. You will have to go to a business model of selling the 3DO files instead of the actual minis. There will probably e a few businesses left who produce stuff the "old" way, but they will be a specialty business rather than the rule...

Mongoose more than has the capital to invest in such a venture (producing a line of miniatures in multiple scales)... With a gaming system to support it; such a line would be hard to compete with.

 

[Pickles]

Retrotech Rules

So I like the retro-tech flavor of Traveller...because it's more fun. And at the end of the day, I play RPGs to have fun.

I couldn't agree more. One of my players works in the surveillance industry, and even the stuff that's available today would make many adventure situations well-nigh impossible.

Well, in Traveller you could always stay one jump ahead of the law by continually jumping away from the scenes of your crimes ... er, 'adventures'. A whole new meaning to the name of the game. :devil:

 

[tbeard1999]

Also,

I can understand if Traveller wants to remain as a "Golden Age of Sci-Fi" game, but if it does... It should really remove the "Sci-Fi" from its name as it will then be a "Retro-Fantasy" game.. Just like what we call "Victorian Sci-Fi"

I don't think I'm agreeing with your definitions. They'd seem to require the Foundation Trilogy (for instance) to no longer be called science fiction, but rather "Retro-Fantasy"... Your definitions would also seem to require that we have an age-stamp on science fiction...after X years, it becomes "retro fantasy" or somesuch...

As for the minis...

I know full well what sells. 28mm is more popular among people, but that doesn't mean that the same miniatures cannot be produced in other scales (And I am tired of having to point this out)...

Your fatigue is most curious, since I NEVER stated that other scales could not be produced. In fact, you may wish to note that I gave you the URLs for several 15mm sci-fi miniature companies and even explicitely stated that Ground Zero Games makes 15mm, 25mm and 1/300 versions of many of their vehicles.

I have, however, noted that in a world of finite resources, I am unwilling to harshly judge a company that stays with the most popular scale, especially as that company already has extensive complementary sci-fi and modern lines. Nothing you've said so far changes my opinion on this point.

As for the minis...If the miniatures are going to be produced as plastics or are CAD designed, then it is really a waste of capital to not make them availale in other scales...

You seem to misunderstand the capital costs involved in pewter miniature production and in plastic injection molding. In both cases, the cost of creating the CAD plans is a small proportion of the total cost of the product. Pewter miniatures must first be sculpted (or prototyped) in high detail material, such as epoxy putty ("green stuff" from GW, for instance). This prototype is quite costly ($300-800 for 28mm IIRC). Each scale of the miniature will require its own *different* prototype, which will be priced as a new prototype. I don't think that there are significant savings on 15mm prototypes compared with 25mm.

The prototype is used to make masters from which rubber molds are formed (typically by compressing the master into a thick rubber disc under heat). Then, channels are added by hand. Then, hot pewter is poured into the mold. When solid, the miniatures are removed and the sprues clipped off. Miniatures are then assembled into packages, then shipped to stores. This is a very labor intensive process. The significant fixed capital expenditure is the prototype and (much less) the master and mold costs. Design time is minimal, though one miniatures company I talked to paid $50-100 for artist conceptions. Most of the design work seems to be done by the prototype sculptor, and this is a relatively small amount of the time spent on sculpting. The largest variable cost is the raw material (pewter) and labor. Mold depreciation, packaging costs, and miscellaneous other costs are minor factors. Of course, the company also has a large marketing expense that it amortizes, as well as other business expenses.

For plastic injection molding, the most significant fixed capital cost is the steel mold, which can run hundreds of thousands of dollars. Design, plastic and labor are relatively small variable costs. This is why plastic molding is usually done by large companies -- the capital cost is huge, but the incremental cost is tiny. Pewter is done by companies that cannot sell sufficient volume (or that lack the capital) to justify an injection mold. And a completely new mold has to be made for each scale, with relatively modest reductions in price for smaller scales.

So as you can see, the cost of designing a miniature is a relatively insignificant component. I'd also add that you cannot assume that identical plans can be used for different scales. Some items--swords, gun barrels, attenae, for instance--may be just fine in 28mm, but way too thin for handling in 15mm or 1/300. So it';s likely that *some* changes will be required to make a 28mm CAD file work for 15mm or 1/300. If so, the modest savings in using the same plans erodes a little.

While it's true that rapid prototyping may alter this someday, the future ain't here yet. I just hope that the rapid prototyping medium(s) will take acrylic paint (or spray primer).

You cannot sell what you do not have, and sales of 28mm and 15mm will MORE than make up for any smaller sales of 6mm (or 10mm) figures.

I suspect that the fact that 15mm is very much a niche market for sci-fi and fantasy miniatures is a reflection of market realities, not some sinister conspiracy to deprive us of 15mm miniatures. I assume that the folks at Mongoose want to make profits, and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they know a fair amount about their business. I am willing to be persuaded by contra evidence, but you seem to have neglected to mention what evidence you have to support your claim.

If the lines were promoted correctly, there would be no need to make up for short sales anyway.

As a business lawyer, I have found that everyone thinks they can run a business better than the business owner. But until the critics are willing to put their own money up--or produce evidence to support their claims--you'll have to forgive my unwillingness to give their claims much creedence.

Also, I do not want to have to use Proxies. I, and many others, just won't use proxies.. I realize that we are strange that way, but those who use Proxies would probably rather buy "official" figures than proxies anyway...

Well, we all have our preferences. But the real question is how much money you're willing to pay for "bona fide" miniatures. You can find a miniature manufacturer to make any kind of miniature you want...you just have to pay for it. And if the market for what you want is small, then it will cost you a *lot* of money. More than you're willing to spend, I suspect.

Me, I'll stay with affordable "proxies" for the time being.

It may not happen now, or with Traveller (although it would be nice to see them lead the way in this), but eventually, it will be hard to NOT produce a line of miniatures in whatever scale a customer demands. Rapid Prototyping and other 3D Instantation technologies are developing too fast to ignore, and eventually they will destroy the current model of miniature manufacturing as a hobby industry. You will have to go to a business model of selling the 3DO files instead of the actual minis. There will probably e a few businesses left who produce stuff the "old" way, but they will be a specialty business rather than the rule...

That's the popular prediction and I am certainly persuaded that it will likely come about some day. Heck, I'm planning to get a desktop model for my shop when the price gets low enough (not there yet).

However, rapid prototyping will only replace casting or injection molding if it can produce equally rugged and detailed miniatures cheaper than those methods. I suspect that mass use of RP machines will result in the material being cheaper than pewter (and because pewter is much heavier, which makes it more expensive to transport). However, I am skeptical that RP material will be as cheap as injection molded plastic pellets purchased by the ton.

Now, some of the color RP machines could change the equation by producing "painted" miniatures of acceptable quality at a lower cost than hand painted ones. Again, assuming comparable ruggedness.

Mongoose more than has the capital to invest in such a venture (producing a line of miniatures in multiple scales)... With a gaming system to support it; such a line would be hard to compete with.

Since I do not have access to their internal financial statements, I cannot verify your claim that they have more than "enough" capital to invest in such a venture. However, that really isn't the question. Rather, it really isn't the whole question. The whole question is "(a) do they have/can they get the capital; and (b) is investing the capital in that kind of venture the best use of the capital".

Since they are not investing in such ventures today, they must believe that the answer to at least one of the questions is "no". And while they may well be wrong, I have not seen anything like enough evidence to conclude that they are probably wrong.

 

[Judas Iscariot]

Just one comment, beard,

I have owned one miniature company and worked for ten to twenty of them (I lost count in 1989)... I know what it costs to produce a miniature...

I also am aware of the scale exaggerrations and alterations that need to take place between scales... If done in CAD, it would still be a pretty simple matter... Especially as a miniature would not be designed as an individual piece, but as a compilation of individual components that could be scaled individually before "Assembly" in the final 3DO file.

The "Ruggedness" of the RP Materials is not really an issue, the price of the materials is coming down faster than the price of the machines themselves. You can get materials of all sorts of durability, flexibility, or quality of one type or another depending upon what you intend to do with the final product.

Last year, I used an RP brake system in an engineering project... I think that was pretty durable considering that it was designed to stop a car moving at 15mph... Although the resolution of the material was not exactly wonderful, this was only due to the fact that it did not require a high resolution... If it had; all that would have been necessary was to use a machine that could do a higher resolution.

Replacing casting and Injection molding plastics is already happening. Within 10 years the miniatures industry will likely be mostly an RP business... This is based upon projections of the cost of the RP machine, the media, and their past costs... It shows that they half in price roughly every 18 months. With a $5000 machine of modest resolution becoming available next year, that means that within 6 years, the same machine will be available for $250. A reasonably high-resolution machine will probably cost no more than $1000 at that point, and a very high-resolution machine will be around $2500 - $5000.

As for proxies, I realize that I am the exception who is willing to pay a pretty high premium to have the best looking scupts I can find (Being employeed as an Architectural Sculptor, I often have to resort to using my work to do my own), but most people will but an "Official" miniature over a proxy... And, why would they necessarily be "Expensive" just because they are "Official"... The BSG minis being produced by Wiz-Kids are not very expensive and they look good...

As for Mongoose's Budget... If they have the money to compete for a BSG license, they probably have the money to put into a line of miniatures, even doing a multi-scale line (sort of like GZG's, GW's, etc...) with different scales for different types of play...

As to whether they will chose to pursue this, I can't say, but I will be trying to make the case for it... I have been working on a re-write of Striker for the last three years, and I have a lot of materials for a Traveller based Miniature game from Skirmish to Operational level... So, I have more than enough material to make a pretty good case for it; along the same lines as the 40K/epic, or Stargrunt/Dirtside games... But, better because they will be based upon Traveller... Also, based upon comments made at Historicon by one of the Mongoose employees... They have been prepared to make just that investment if needed...

 

[pendragonman]

It's really interesting when a lawyer and an artist argue...

 

[hunter]

Take the minis debate to another thread.

 

[tbeard1999]

Just one comment, beard,

I have owned one miniature company and worked for ten to twenty of them (I lost count in 1989)... I know what it costs to produce a miniature...

I helped a client analyze a business plan for a miniatures company and the principals of a large miniatures company were gracious enough to educate me on the production and financial matters. So my knowledge is entirely theoretical.

At that time, the design component was simply not a large portion of the fixed capital cost. Replacing artists with CAD programs may be more efficient, but they won't save that much fixed costs.

That said, I agree that replacing *sculptors* with RP machines should reduce the cost of scuplting, which *is* a significant fixed cost. I suspect that the first use of RP machines will be on larger miniatures and vehicles, as CAD software is already optimized for such things, and lower resolution shouldn't be as big an issue. Tools like Poser can turn out incredible models of people and animals; there shouldn't be much problem transferring their files to a CAD/CAM system.

Resolution may be a problem, but as you note, that should be easy to address with more capable machines.

Also, plastic injection molds are increasingly being carved by robots (though they still require human touch up). This has brought the cost of injection molds down, but they're still extremely costly for small businesses. Still, injection molding is THE technique if you can sell zillions of something. Once the mold is made and the injection equipment bought, the cost of producing the product is almost inconsequential on a per-item basis.

Replacing casting and Injection molding plastics is already happening. Within 10 years the miniatures industry will likely be mostly an RP business...

RP be viable for turning out products that can't be sold in quantities large enough to make injection molding viable, *if* the RP items can be produced at an acceptable quality and at a lower price (or more convenience, etc.). However, RP machines that I've looked at (admittedly low end models) seem way too slow to replace casting or injection molding. Of course, that may just be an engineering issue.

This is based upon projections of the cost of the RP machine, the media, and their past costs... It shows that they half in price roughly every 18 months. With a $5000 machine of modest resolution becoming available next year, that means that within 6 years, the same machine will be available for $250.

I've noticed the same thing (with impatience, as I *really* want one for my shop). If the price continues to drop at that rate, then I agree with you that it will become absurd *not* to own one. However, there's more to consider. How much does the RP material cost? Will we see something like the inkjet printer model, where machines are almost given away so that people will use expensive consumables? If so, will the materials cost still be low enough to make RP produced miniatures viable?

And how much will miniature designers charge for their CAD files? Unless they can come up with a method to limit the number of miniatures produced, these files might have to be pretty expensive to compensate the designer for the time expended. A "pay once, produce many" model will also effectively eliminate royalties. This could have a *huge* effect on licensing arrangements (indeed, it might severely damage licensing as a source of revenue).

And a high cost for the files would create a software piracy problem.

It's even possible that talented designers might refuse to sell their CAD files to end users because these files would be extremely easy to pirate. Pewter/plastic miniatures might survive for awhile simple because they are the only way for designers and companies to actually make a profit -- much like paper books today. The publishing industry prefers paper books over ebooks for the simple reason that books are very hard to pirate. That explains most publishers' lack of enthusiam for ebooks (Baen being a notable exception).

And there's probably a point at which the price of the machines will "bottom out". At that point, prices won't decline, but capability will increase with prices remaining stable. Hopefully that bottom price will be *real* low.

A reasonably high-resolution machine will probably cost no more than $1000 at that point, and a very high-resolution machine will be around $2500 - $5000.

I'm ready...bring it on!

As for proxies, I realize that I am the exception who is willing to pay a pretty high premium to have the best looking scupts I can find (Being employeed as an Architectural Sculptor, I often have to resort to using my work to do my own), but most people will but an "Official" miniature over a proxy... And, why would they necessarily be "Expensive" just because they are "Official"... The BSG minis being produced by Wiz-Kids are not very expensive and they look good...

As a matter of economics, an "official" product would be expected to cost more than a generic product because the licensed product has an additional cost component (typically the licensing fee) compared with a generic product. This can be offset, however, if the license enables the licensee to sell far more of the product than the generic producer and therefore take advantage of economies of scale.

But I wasn't saying that "official" miniatures would have to be very expensive compared to proxies. I was referring to the fact that (at least today) there are significant fixed costs in producing a new miniature. Sales of that miniature must produce enough money to cover such costs, plus incremental costs and to provide a reasonable profit. As the volume of miniatures sold declines, price *must* go up. But as long as you're is willing to pay the price, you CAN get any miniature you want. My contention is that the apparent low demand for (say) 15mm sci-fi miniatures means that you'd have to pay more than you're probably willing to for the exact miniatures you want.

FWIW, I prefer 15mm for my modern wargaming (using my "A Fistful of TOWs 2" rules) and science fiction (using my FFT-based "Railgun:2100" rules and my gonna-be-released-one-day "FFT:2030").

As for Mongoose's Budget... If they have the money to compete for a BSG license, they probably have the money to put into a line of miniatures, even doing a multi-scale line (sort of like GZG's, GW's, etc...) with different scales for different types of play...

But as I noted, there's more to the question than availablity of capital (which is necessary). The business owners must also be convinced that this would be the best use of those resources, considering risk and likely rewards.

As to whether they will chose to pursue this, I can't say, but I will be trying to make the case for it... I have been working on a re-write of Striker for the last three years, and I have a lot of materials for a Traveller based Miniature game from Skirmish to Operational level... So, I have more than enough material to make a pretty good case for it; along the same lines as the 40K/epic, or Stargrunt/Dirtside games... But, better because they will be based upon Traveller...

Well, I certainly wish you luck. Traveller could use a playable set of miniature rules, after 30 years. I'll be releasing a generic sci-fi miniatures rules set, based on "A Fistful of TOWS 3", which we plan to have out this year. My rules are inspired by Traveller, but I have no time or energy to mess with licensing.

Also, based upon comments made at Historicon by one of the Mongoose employees... They have been prepared to make just that investment if needed...

Again, the best of luck to you. I apologize if I came off a little harsh in my earlier post. My sympathies are with business owners and I find that most folks greatly underestimate the challenges of running a business and greatly overestimate their own ability to second-guess business owners. If I unfairly put you in that category, my apologies.

 

[hunter]

What part of take this to another thread did you not understand tbeard?

 

[Berg]

Perhaps split it off, Hunter....

 

[tbeard1999]

What part of take this to another thread did you not understand tbeard?

The part where you said it.

Apparently, I started my reply *before* you told us to take it to another thread. You then posted your demand. *Then* I posted my reply. You'll note that your post occurred only 20 minutes before my post was submitted. Given that my post was rather lengthy (and that I took a phone call while typing it), looks to me like I started typing it before you made your request.

No challenge to your authority intended.

As an aside -- You might consider identifying yourself as the moderator when issuing moderator commands. Or at least identifying yourself as such in your profile. When I first read your "what part of..." post, I didn't realize who you were. I started to post a rather, uh, pointed reply. Fortunately. I recalled some other posts by you that implied (but never stated) that you might be in charge.

 

[hunter]

As an aside -- You might consider identifying yourself as the moderator when issuing moderator commands. Or at least identifying yourself as such in your profile. When I first read your "what part of..." post, I didn't realize who you were. I started to post a rather, uh, pointed reply. Fortunately. I recalled some other posts by you that implied (but never stated) that you might be in charge.

I'm not a moderator I'm the owner of the forums. As such my 'demands' are what passes for law here.

As for identifying myself, there are two identifiers on every post I make. One says Ancient just below my name and the other is the Admin symbol to the right side. The forum rules also pretty clearly indicate that this place is owned and run by me. My sig ought to give a pretty good indicator of who I am as well.

I could have run this out as an infraction but I didn't, instead I posted twice, once asking you to take it to another thread, the other asking what part of my previous post you didn't grok. Given the time difference between my post and yours, it was a legitimate question.

That said, it's over and done with. If you'd like I can try to split off yours and the other person's posts relating to minis, but unfortunately (and the reason I haven't) is that that there are other comments interspersed with those posts that are related to this discussion.

 

[Judas Iscariot]

Speaking of comments related to this thread...

Has anyone yet determined what will be in the Mongoose Traveller version and what will be in the T5 version?

I know that the Mongoose version is supposed to be the "Basic" rules set, and T5 is supposed to be the more complex/"Advanced" set...

But, what does this mean exactly? What are the differences between the two? What is going to be in T5 that will not be in the "Basic" Mongoose Traveller set?

Does anyone actually have the more than just a pdf or an outline of what T5 is supposed to be?

Does anyone have any info on the Mongoose version?

 

[hunter]

Marc's keeping T5 close to his vest with the exception of about a dozen people.

Exactly what will be in RTT is still being tossed around from what I undertand.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

There are some select folks involved in the last stages of MWMs work on T5. I haven't heard anything about RTT, except what I've read here at CotI.

 

[Plankowner]

They could have used fudge dice. <ducks>

But then that only gets you from +4 to -4

Doesn't Flux dice just give you 2D6-7?

Rather than add and subtract, wouldn't 2D6-7 be faster?

 

[Starflyer]

I've been re-reading the original press release and I get the impression that it appears Marc intends releasing the 'advanced' T5 version in late '07 and then the 'basic' Mongoose version released in '08.

Surely the 'basic' set should precede the 'advanced' otherwise why buy a basic version?

Maybe a case of chicken before the egg?