What's Coming in T5

[tbeard1999]

A modified version of the T4 rules. What you are referring to are the Flux rules, which are not the primary resolution mechanic.

"The system introduces Flux- a consistent die-rolling mechanism for creating a reasonable range of variation between -5 and +5. The most probable result is zero: no change. Flux is a mechanism for expressing (and generating if necessary) DMs and Mods for Tasks, for generating additional detail for objects, and for imposing variation on otherwise standard die rolls."

So...you make a special roll to determine what modifiers will apply to the task roll? <shrug> That is an impressive amount of meaningless verbiage -- I'm a lawyer and it makes *me* jealous. So what, exactly, does this "flux" system actually *do*?

And was I correct in inferring that it was a d6-d6 based mechanic?

One playtest draft indicated that the Newest and Most Bestest Traveller Task Fetish would be the T4 system without the d3's. If this is the system, this is a terrible decision, for reasons noted in my other posts.

Of course, d3's suck wind just about as much. They alleviate the statistical absurdities of adding a d6 per difficulty level. But they are a clumsy and fussy alternative. So...what you gain in better statistics, you lose in fussiness.

And at the end of the day, I just can't see how that system is better than )for instance) the GURPS 3d6 +/- modifiers system. I suspect that it's different for different's sake, which is perhaps the *worse* rationale for a game mechanic.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

I suspect that the enchantment with 2d6 systems is an artifact of The Old Days when polyhedral dice were expensive and hard to find. In those days, d6's were easier to obtain because most "normal" games had them. So, the 2d6 mechanic was a more accessible solution in those days.

Absolutely. I always bring up "grabbing the dice from the Monopoly game" as the reason for keeping 2d6. (As well as the bell curve for stats and such.)

 

[hunter]

So...you make a special roll to determine what modifiers will apply to the task roll? <shrug>

As noted in your own quote, 'if necessary' which I take to mean if the Ref for some reason needs to generate a DM on the fly. Most of the examples where I have seen it used is generating results that are useful if based on a 0 average.

And was I correct in inferring that it was a d6-d6 based mechanic?

Pretty much as far as flux goes.

One playtest draft indicated that the Newest and Most Bestest Traveller Task Fetish would be the T4 system without the d3's. If this is the system, this is a terrible decision, for reasons noted in my other posts.

Well half-dice have been out for quite a while now. Other than that, the system IMO is no worse or better than any other. That said, I prefer other.

And at the end of the day, I just can't see how that system is better than )for instance) the GURPS 3d6 +/- modifiers system.

A system I personally dislike and won't use. It's nothing but personal preference more than one truly being 'better' than another.

I suspect that it's different for different's sake, which is perhaps the *worse* rationale for a game mechanic.

Based on what?

 

[tbeard1999]

As noted in your own quote, 'if necessary' which I take to mean if the Ref for some reason needs to generate a DM on the fly. Most of the examples where I have seen it used is generating results that are useful if based on a 0 average.

Pretty much as far as flux goes.

Well half-dice have been out for quite a while now. Other than that, the system IMO is no worse or better than any other. ...

["I suspect that it's different for different's sake, which is perhaps the *worse* rationale for a game mechanic."]

Based on what?

Based on the observation that a game mechanic is, at the end of the day, a *tool*. And surely you'd agree that a tool should be selected on the basis of how well it performs as a tool (taking into account utility, ease of use, logic, etc.), not on whether it is different from similar tools. I want a hammer to *hammer* things. If it is a lousy hammer, I couldn't care less that it's a different design than other hammers. The same is true of game mechanics.

Nor am I persuaded by your apparent contention that no system is better or worse than any other. If pressed on this, I guarantee that I can design a system that sucks worse that anything proposed for T5. The reverse may be true as well, unfortunately.

While a good GM and good players can make *any* system work, this does not excuse sloppy or ill-conceived game designs, IMHO.

And I am afraid that T5 is starting to look like an epic kludge. At best, I haven't seen *anything* in the flyer or playtest materials that impresses me. Maybe I'm missing something, but I seriously doubt it.

That's a real shame. I hate to see Traveller go out like this. It's as depressing as seeing Muhammed Ali hawking bug spray, or Joe Louis ending up as a wrestler.

 

[Judas Iscariot]

OK...

Aside from all of the BS about dice type...

I still have issues with some of the tech.

Those Aslani, and Human robots look like somthing that we can create now..

As a computer engineering student (actually, it is Mechatronics/AI, which is essentially robotics) I think that this is going to rapidly become an issue.

Especially when Toyota, Honda, and Ishiguro's Company (I cannot recall the name) bring their robots on-line and into the market in 2009 - 2012.

They are pretty advanced by even today's standards.

Also, the Aslani Robot doesn't have the digigrade stance of an aslani...

Aside from that... All I am really interested in for T5 is the miniatures rules, and producing a line of miniatures.

Since it is Mongoose doing the miniatures... I will bet that they will be 25mm, which chaps my ass. While I like 25mm for skirmish. I hate them for doing massed combats. I prefer 15mm and 6mm for larger battles.

I am hoping that my concept of multi-scaled minis for the various types of miniature play will still be viable.

 

[aramis]

Anthony:

In my first D&D group, in 1979, we had to beg Long's Drugs to order some sets of polyhedrals... They had 5 different RPG's on the shelves, (D&D, AD&D, EPT, and C&S, and one other that escapes me) but carried only d6's.

We had two sets of polyhedrals, 1 each type... for the group... Aaron's D&D box, and Andrew's D&D box. Polys could be purchased at Spenard Hobby, but we couldn't get there (Longs was a 90 minute hike round trip... and Spenard Hobby another 30 minute hike each way from there... and any one of use would be in deep kimchee for hiking THAT far, and into THAT neighborhood...)

When only one store in a city of 350K carries them, and they don't carry a selection...

I got a box of TSR soft-polys in '80. Prior to that, we shared dice.

 

[Judas Iscariot]

OK...Now that I have had time to chew on the pdf for a while; here are some things that I would have a look at:

Under "Artificials"... I would get rid of the term "Android". since I am in the robot biz... I thought that I should bring somthing up; an "Android" is a purely male anthropomorphic robot designed to emulate a human. While I understand that most Gamers happn to be male; I think that continuing to support what is essentially an incomplete description (and sexist to boot) of mechanist anthropomorphic constructs is a bad policy. Traveller is supposed to be known for its accuracies (or attempt at accuracy) of technologies. That said... a MALE anthropomorphic robot is an "Android", a female anthropomorphic robot is called a "Gynoid" (See the prefixes "An" and "Gyn"? They basically are sexual determinants from greek roots). If you want to call anthropomorphs something... Well... The jury is still out on this one... Just add Gynoid to the list.

Senses:

If you are going to be including "Artificials" into the list of "sophonts", they can have "senses" that are nothing like biological senses at all.

For instance, neural-nets created to recognize certain features of things (sounds, images, and so on) can be created to recognize features of more abstract "things".

For instance, an Artificial (Or, now that I think about it.. an axtra-terrestrial/non-human intelligence - I am thinking Hivers here especially could be included in this) sophont could have a sense for looking at computer code and knowing whether it was optimal for its job or not (sort of like how we can look at an object and just know whether it is capable of certain things or not... wheels of rolling, aircraft of flying (note that sometimes an object can go beyond a sense's ability to accurately percieve it. Optical illusions are good examples of this, as are auditory illusions), cups for holding water, and so on. There are also senses that people have that are just properties of another sense (like how some people's sense of spacial relations will allow them to just KNOW how to pack a bag, or load a truck to make optimal use of the space.

There are literally unlimited sensory abilities that could be created for artificial sophonts. The ability sense physical sensations in others (This is basically an alternative use of sight, hearing and smell), a sense for mathmatical proofs (The artificial would just Know by observing a proof whether it was accurate or not - this one is currently being trained at various universities), a sense for detecting/observing when something was going to die (i.e.: the approaching "time of death"; regardless of cause), a sense for detecting sub-space patterns of vacuum energy... I could go on.

There is also the supplimenting of "Normal" senses with alternative forms of the same sense.. Supplimenting sight with a braoder range of the EM spectrum, broadinging the range of hearing so that a person (when I say "Person" I am referring to sophont... This is the current practive of most in the AI field, who refer to possible AIs as a "Person") could percieve the Extremely Low Frequency waves of continental drift (allowing them to esentially "detect" earthquakes before they happen)...

Am I making sense here???

I also happen to like the +5 to -5 dice convention... It is one that I am familiar with from WRG ancients from long ago...

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Under "Artificials"... I would get rid of the term "Android". since I am in the robot biz... //SNIP// The jury is still out on this one... Just add Gynoid to the list.

How about just using the "suffix": droid? Unfortunately, it sounds a little StarWarsish, but that can't really be helped (and "Sophontoid" is really ), and everyone would know what you meant (maybe ).

I also happen to like the +5 to -5 dice convention... It is one that I am familiar with from WRG ancients from long ago...

Ahhh, so now we know where the Judas bit comes from!

 

[Pickles]

As noted in your own quote, 'if necessary' which I take to mean if the Ref for some reason needs to generate a DM on the fly.

Scary thought, playing under a referee who can't come up with a -5 to +5 modifier on the fly ... o:

 

[atpollard]

Scary thought, playing under a referee who can't come up with a -5 to +5 modifier on the fly ... o:

Just another reason to stick with 2d6, it supports only smaller modifiers so the referee only has to come up with a -3 to +3 modifier (since +/- 4 = about 97% pass/fail).

 

[Border Reiver]

I would keep the term android; it has been a staple of SF since the end of the 19th century instead of 20th century neologism by an avowed feminist writer. The Infomatics School at Edinburgh Uni scoffs at such terms but will cocede that "bots" can be called whatever the creator wishes. The famed Stephen Salter is a big fan of "fembot" (but he said that with a wink so....)

 

[Flynn]

Aside from that... All I am really interested in for T5 is the miniatures rules, and producing a line of miniatures.

Since it is Mongoose doing the miniatures... I will bet that they will be 25mm, which chaps my ass. While I like 25mm for skirmish. I hate them for doing massed combats. I prefer 15mm and 6mm for larger battles.

I am hoping that my concept of multi-scaled minis for the various types of miniature play will still be viable.

Most tabletop RPGers tend to run skirmishes as opposed to mass combat, as RPGs tend to focus on the personal level rather than the strategic level of play. If they have to make a choice, then 25-28mm would be the best choice for them to make, simply because more gamers would use them. It makes sense from a business perspective. There are just more gamers playing skirmish level than anything else, and that's where the money is.

Still, while I wouldn't buy any at the smaller scale, I do hope that they offer you what you are looking for, just because there are a small number of grognards who desperately desire them, if for no other reason than for nostalgia purposes.

But I still want 25-28mm characters available for my personal gaming needs.

Heck, I just hope they make miniatures,
Flynn

 

[tbeard1999]

OK...

Aside from all of the BS about dice type...

I still have issues with some of the tech.

Those Aslani, and Human robots look like somthing that we can create now..

As a computer engineering student (actually, it is Mechatronics/AI, which is essentially robotics) I think that this is going to rapidly become an issue.

Especially when Toyota, Honda, and Ishiguro's Company (I cannot recall the name) bring their robots on-line and into the market in 2009 - 2012.

They are pretty advanced by even today's standards.

Also, the Aslani Robot doesn't have the digigrade stance of an aslani...

Aside from that... All I am really interested in for T5 is the miniatures rules, and producing a line of miniatures.

Since it is Mongoose doing the miniatures... I will bet that they will be 25mm, which chaps my ass. While I like 25mm for skirmish. I hate them for doing massed combats. I prefer 15mm and 6mm for larger battles.

I am hoping that my concept of multi-scaled minis for the various types of miniature play will still be viable.

You're probably doomed to be disappointed on several fronts. First, Traveller is an RPG/homage to the Golden Age of Sci-Fi (1950s-1960s). It is not, and will not be, an RPG that models current Sci-Fi trends. If you like Golden Age sci-fi (like me), then Traveller should work for you. The converse is true as well.

That may not be all bad, by the way. I like studying what sci-fi authors predict and how accurate their predictions turned out. Excluding handwavium (FTL drives, reactionless drives), I've found that science fiction authors are wrong far more often than right. I think that we tend to congratulate them on the 10% they get right and ignore the 90% that they got wrong to some extent.

In particular, science fiction authors have repeatedly failed to accurately project the implications of personal computers. Even sci-fi that came after the personal computer revolution seems to under-predict (or extravagantly over-predict) computer tech. I recall a scene in the novel "3001", in which a protagonist sends an email (that goes directly into the recipient's brain), but makes typos because she can't type fast. Keyboards...on computers that plug directly into the brain. Or, the failure of Cyberpunk authors to predict wireless networks (rectified later, I'm told).

Conversely, some authors have overpredicted things like flying cars, nanotech and some cybertech.

And even recent sci-fi can look dated now. I think that a truly current sci-fi game will have to be revised annually if it's gonna accurately reflect sci-fi thinking and take into account current technological developments.

Even then, the author will probably get most things wrong. So your expectations may be a bit unreasonable.

And as a veteran game master (28-29 years and counting), I'd observe that most ultramodern tech makes adventures far less challenging. Cellphones, the internet, Google Earth and GPS can suck most of the mystery and challenge out of a situation. And highly capable robots would make it unnecessary (and foolish) to send people into dangerous situations. No fun there.

So I like the retro-tech flavor of Traveller...because it's more fun. And at the end of the day, I play RPGs to have fun.

YMMV, of course.

Second, 28mm is the scale of choice these days because skirmish gaming (popularized by Warhammer 40K and similar games) uses that scale. And in a world of limited resources, you really can't blame Mongoose for preferring the most popular scale. Especially when they already have an extensive 28mm sci-fi line in place.

Regarding 15mm, check out Ground Zero Games' 15mm line. It has a very Traveller-friendly look and includes vehicles, infantry, etc. Item V15-20A is a *very* Traveller-esque grav APC. I note that GZG often has the same vehicle/troop in 1/300, 15mm and 25mm scale. Brigade models has a complementary line of 15mm vehicles as well.

Quick Reaction Force produces a nice line of modern 15mm vehicles and troops. Many of them can easily impersonate sci-fi vehicles (switching turrets is an easy way to disguise a real world vehicle), especially non-grav vehicles.

http://www.gzg.com/
http://www.brigademodels.co.uk/NoFrames/SF15/index.html
http://www.quickreactionforce.co.uk/

As for rules, well, Stargrunt and Dirtside (Ground Zero Games) are highly regarded. I personally don't care for them, but many folks like them. Either is far better than Striker or the abysmal Striker II.

FWIW, I will be revising Railgun:2100 after I complete "A Fistful of TOWs 3" (my modern miniature rules). Railgun 2 will have a very strong Traveller flavor. Plus, I'll have a conversion system so that FF&S weapons can be rated in Railgun/FFT3. FFT3 will be out this year, so Railgun 2 will be out in 2008.

 

[tbeard1999]

Scary thought, playing under a referee who can't come up with a -5 to +5 modifier on the fly ... o:

Yeah, what you said.

 

[Rover]

Another aspct or CT that irked me as a player, and does not seemed to addressed in T5 is charater improvement and advancement.

In CT, once you finished Chargen there was no formal mechanism for advancing your character's skills and abilities. Even as a teen in the 70's it made no sense to me that you could spend countless weeks in Jumpspace with little or nothing to do, but could not do anykind of self improvement.

It would seem to me that there would b a large market for self instruction books or physical fitness equipment in a traveller universe.

Games with levels and XP can handle this, granted often in an unrealistic manner. How will T5 tackle these issues?

 

[Andrew Boulton]

In CT, once you finished Chargen there was no formal mechanism for advancing your character's skills and abilities.

LBB2 p42...?

 

[Rover]

LBB2 p42...?

Don't have my books handy R/N but boy will I feel silly if I glossed over that all these years.

I still would like to know how T5 will handle this.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

The problem with experience in Traveller is that you can't make it more efficient than chargen (ie ~1pt/year).

Systems with "proper" experience rules usually end up turning PCs into superheroes; I like the fact that in Traveller you stay a normal person.

 

[tbeard1999]

Don't have my books handy R/N but boy will I feel silly if I glossed over that all these years.

I still would like to know how T5 will handle this.

I doubt you really overlooked it. The LBB method is effectively worthless unless you play in a campaign where time moves *real* fast (and then, character aging will be an issue).

Summary--

You commit to a 4 year course of study to improve education, weapon skill, other skills, or physical fitness. Assorted fussy success rolls/conditions apply.

Education: Take 50 courses over a year and you get +1 to your EDU. If you take a 4 year sabbatical (presumably removing you from play and costing cr70K), you get a +2 in any non-weapon skill (you must have level-1 in that skill).


Weapon Skill: As long as you're in the program, you get a temporary +1 to one gun combat and one blade combat skill. Do it for 8 years and the increase is permanent.

Other Skills: As long as you're in the program, you get a temporary +1 to two non-combat skills. Do it for 8 years and the increase is permanent.

Physical Fitness: Make the dedication rolls and you get a +1 to STR, DEX and END as long as you're in the program. Note -- high INT makes it *less* likely you'll succeed.

As you can see, this system, while arguably "realistic", requires a very long-term campaign to produce permanent benefits. And it severs any link between actions taken during adventures and character improvement. I don't use it. I prefer a very simple alternative -- after every *adventure*, each character can roll to improve one skill he used at a "stressful" time during the adventure (whether or not he succeeds). The roll is 1d6 and must exceed the current skill level (a 6 always succeeds). Thus, players get a chance at a reward after every adventure.

 

[atpollard]

I like the fact that in Traveller you stay a normal person.

Speak for yourself. With enough money and time to figure out how to graft robot parts onto your body, you too can be a Traveller superhero!

[just kidding]


Battledress will get you part of the way there, but you are correct that Traveller keeps that soft squishy middle (as opposed to a 100+ HP Fighter in a world of 1D8+2 weapons).