What is fame?

[rancke]

The errata discussion brought up the new fame rules, and apparently it's possible to have a fame "Beyond the Imperium".

What exactly is fame defined as? Is it "Everybody has heard about you" or "There's a decent chance someone has heard about you" or "You're in the local library database"? Because unless it's the last, there is, IMO, only one person whose fame goes beyond the Imperium, and that's the Emperor (Not counting special local circumstances, e.g. Norris is presumably known in the Thoengling Empire). And even then, if you're on the far side of the Zhodani Consulate and want to find someone who knows who's the current emperor, you could be in for a long search.

Apart from that, the Archduke of Vland? Where's Vland?" The Hero of the Solomani Rim War? "There was a Solomani Rim War?" The discoverer of the cure for Opdraf? "There's a disease called opdraf?" The inventor of the Jump-6 drive? "Who cares?"


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

The errata discussion brought up the new fame rules, and apparently it's possible to have a fame "Beyond the Imperium".

What exactly is fame defined as? Is it "Everybody has heard about you" or "There's a decent chance someone has heard about you" or "You're in the local library database"? Because unless it's the last, there is, IMO, only one person whose fame goes beyond the Imperium, and that's the Emperor (Not counting special local circumstances, e.g. Norris is presumably known in the Thoengling Empire). And even then, if you're on the far side of the Zhodani Consulate and want to find someone who knows who's the current emperor, you could be in for a long search.

Apart from that, the Archduke of Vland? Where's Vland?" The Hero of the Solomani Rim War? "There was a Solomani Rim War?" The discoverer of the cure for Opdraf? "There's a disease called opdraf?" The inventor of the Jump-6 drive? "Who cares?"


Hans

_________________________________________________________
From T5 Core Rules P.109 (Errata Corrected):

FAME
Fame is the degree of recognition or respect which society in general (or specific subdivisions of society such as the military) holds for an individual. Fame is not a guarantee of instant recognition; it is the likelihood that a search of documents or databanks will return information about the individual (and fame may reflect infamy or notoriety).

Fame Stacks. A character’s Fame is the sum of all Fame points received.

Expressing Fame. Fame is stated in levels noted as Fame-<level>. A world famous entertainer has Fame-10. A Fame-10 entertainer probably has name recognition anywhere on the world on which he performs.

Fame Levels Table:

0 Unknown
1 Parent
2 Close Family
3 Extended Family
4 Neighborhood
5 Town
6 City
7 Large City
8 Regional
9 Continental
10 World
11 World Complex
12 World System
13 Inner System
14 System
15 Greater system
16 Outer System
17 System
18 Many Systems
19 Subsector
20 Sector
21 Domain
22 Domains
23 Many Domains
24 Empire
25 Beyond Empire
26 Several Empires
27 This Spiral Arm
28 Many Spiral Arms
29 The Galaxy
30 Several Galaxies
31 Many Galaxies
32 The Universe
33 Present Reality
34 Past Realities
35 Future Realities
36 All Reality
_________________________________________________________


Fame can come form several sources, including awards, publications, discoveries, medals, military officer rank (Officer Fame = Rank#), etc.

For Nobles, Base Fame = Soc x 1.5

 

[the.barwickian]

I think you underestimate the power of fame.

Let's consider famous US people. I have never been to the US. Consider the US to be the Imperium, and me from... uh, the Solomani Rim, say. We share a common language, which helps.

I'm aware of the names and faces of a number of US presidents who have served in office over the last 70 years or so (long before I was born). I'm also aware of a number of other federal politicians and officials, though my knowledge of all but a few is limited to those serving in the last 20 years or so.

I'm definitely aware of movie stars by name and face, going back to the 1930s (and a little before in a few cases). Same with TV actors. I know very few US-based stage actors unless they've also done movies.

I know a good number of US-based musicians, particularly those working in the classical, rock and folk genres.

I'm aware of the names of some of the famous-for-being-famous celebs, but I don't think I'd recognise Kim Kardashian or Snooki if I saw a photo of them.

I know names of novelists (not always their faces), both those who have achieved widespread notability in general literature, and those who work in speculative fiction.

I know the names of many US game designers (and can put a face to quite a few of them).

I'm aware of names of a good number of US sports stars, even in sports my country doesn't play. Go Broncos!

I know a fair bit of US history, and know major names (and a good number of faces) from the past.

Local politicians, most congressmen and senators, regional TV personalities, athletes who may have represented the US but haven't become global names (or haven't played for the Broncos), members of small-time bands... no. I wouldn't recognise their names. But they'll be in my Library Data. I can look them up if I have to.

What about when there's a language barrier? I definitely know fewer. Take India - although English is one of its official languages, much of its entertainment is in Hindi (or other languages). I've never been to India either. I know the prime minister is Manmohan Singh, that Sonia Gandhi is leader of the Congress Party, and recongise both by sight. I know Narendra Modi of the BJP hopes to become the next Prime Minister. I'd recognise actors Amitabh Bachchan, Shah Rukh Khan and Aishwarya Rai by sight. I know the names of about a dozen other Bollywood celebs, but wouldn't recognise them. I recognise a few Indian academics and writers by name - but only those who write (or have been translated into) English. I've a fair knowledge of Indian cricketers going back to the 1980s (I saw Kepil Dev's team win the World Cup at Lord's).

Fame beyond the Imperium? Yeah, I'd definitely say it's possible.

 

[the.barwickian]

Oh, and as to how fame works, I'd say it's primarily name recognition. If someone has to look you up in their Library Data (Wikipedia, google), that's not fame enough.

If you've got name-recognition fame, I'd look for an appropriate roll to see if someone recognises your face as well.

To some extent, fame depends on someone's knowledge. If you're world-famous, someone with the appropriate World Knowledge has heard of you. If you'er not world famous, well, they may have heard of you - make a roll, penalised by the number of steps below World Famous.

If you're famous for a particular field (most are), someone with knowledge of that field should be able to make a roll against that knowledge, again, penalised by how far removed your fame is from their experience. Archaeologists would have a greater chance of recognising other archaeologists' names, for instance.

 

[rancke]

I think you underestimate the power of fame.

Let's consider famous US people. I have never been to the US. Consider the US to be the Imperium, and me from... uh, the Solomani Rim, say. We share a common language, which helps.

Why on Earth (literally) would I consider them to be from the Imperium and you from the Solomani Confederation? What I consider them are people living on the same world as you do. In other words, Fame 10.



Hans

 

[the.barwickian]

Why on Earth (literally) would I consider them to be from the Imperium and you from the Solomani Confederation? What I consider them are people living on the same world as you do. In other words, Fame 10.

Trite response: Because it's the only form of real world example I can give.

Proper response: Because them being world famous is the point. They are not continentally famous (Fame 9), in the same way as someone who is famous throughout the Empire (Fame 24) is not as famous as someone who's famous beyond the Empire (Fame 25).

There are people who are famous throughout the Empire, just as there are people famous throughout the US. If I were from the Empire (or the US) I would have heard of those people. But I am not. I only know the ones who are a level above that - except where I have a special interest; I doubt Willis McGahee could be considered world famous, but I follow the Broncos, so...

Your OP suggested only the Emperor would be famous beyond the Empire. I think that is not so. Arts and entertainment brings wide renown, especially where there is cultural cross-over (those human settlements in Foreven will probably show Imperial 3V shows and feelies; musicians, dreamweavers, actors can cross political borders). High office (not only at the level of Emperor) can also bring it.

Cultural borders are harder to cross - which was my point by mentionin India and Bollywood. Would the Hivers or the K'kree appreciate Imperial entertainments? Far less likely than the Solomani or the Sword Worlds would.

 

[rancke]

Your OP suggested only the Emperor would be famous beyond the Empire.

I stated my opinion that only the emperor would be famous outside the Imperium. Except for people with special interests, anyway.

I think that is not so.

We seem to have a differenc of opinion, then.

Arts and entertainment brings wide renown, especially where there is cultural cross-over (those human settlements in Foreven will probably show Imperial 3V shows and feelies; musicians, dreamweavers, actors can cross political borders). High office (not only at the level of Emperor) can also bring it.

I doubt that arts and entertainments has anywhere near the penetration on even a sector level that it has on a world level.


Hans

 

[the.barwickian]

We seem to have a differenc of opinion, then.

Clearly. I suspect it's more a matter of scale, than a full-on difference, though. I have no issue with fame beyond the Empire, but much above that my eyes boggle and steam shoots from my ears. Several Empires? I can just about compass that. Spiral arm? Galaxy? Several galaxies? Fame beyond the Universe? Wow.

Maybe the Galaxiad will put some perspective on that... (to infinity and beyond!)

I doubt that arts and entertainments has anywhere near the penetration on even a sector level that it has on a world level.

Yeah, I think that's where our difference of opinion lies. I posit IMTU that it would be very uncommon for a low population world to produce much entertainment (art may be a different matter) for export, and even for local consumption would likely be on an amateur or semi-amateur basis - cf The Ballad of Jayne Cobb. Medium-pop worlds may have their own entertainment, but would likely be net importers of enmtertainment. High-pop worlds would certainly be entertainment exporters, and I can see widely popular shows being circulated (x-boat jump by x-boat jump) throughout the Imperium and even beyond its borders.

It can be quite a lot of fun coming up with names for popular shows and games.

 

[Murdoc]

Clearly. I suspect it's more a matter of scale, than a full-on difference, though. I have no issue with fame beyond the Empire, but much above that my eyes boggle and steam shoots from my ears. Several Empires? I can just about compass that. Spiral arm? Galaxy? Several galaxies? Fame beyond the Universe? Wow.

That's why I don't like the fame scale as it is right now. In some places it represents too little change (World System, Inner System, System, Greater system, Outer System, System (again?!?)), in others way too much (like the later stages "All Reality", etc.). I mean come on, if they are going to jump up in distance like that then perhaps there should be a law of diminishing returns or something to counteract that, like maybe it costs more fame "points" to go up higher fame levels.

I can also see a difference between gaining fame intercontinentally on Earth today and in the 3I, simply because of how fast information travels is so very different. I can stream Bollywood movies if I want, I can't do so with Hiver stuff. But, if you want to start taking that into consideration, then you have to consider the speed of travel of information in any circumstance; for example, at TL 2 it would be more like Imperial Space since Traveller was always intended to be like the "Age of Sail", so that would make Earth more like the 3I then. Conversely, if your ATU has Leap drives common, then it becomes a lot easier to get those Hiver import movies and shows. So in conclusion, either you keep it simple like it is, or devise a mechanic that takes into consideration either TL or speed of travel. To do what I'm not sure, but combined with my previous point about Fame levels should have different difficulties to attain, then maybe you'd get something there, if anyone wants to go to that much trouble.

 

[GrayPennell]

I think its a bit more complex than speed. For example in the 1700-1800 people knew who Benjamin Franklin or Isaac Newton or madame de Pompadour, Gen. Wolf or Clive of India etc etc. This has to do with contact between peoples. By the time of the age of sail books and more importantly Newsprint were common so in the European world the literate and multilingual people did have access to tons of information about other important people.

Expanding on this than we can say there is a great possibility of fame being shared across certain peoples.

Factors to consider

Cultural similarities is big one. Aslan, Humans of all types and Vargr probably share a lot of information. However the Hivers and Kree probably dont share. Thats why people of the Imperium dont get these two races and little is know who the hiver ``~~~~ real was.

The next thing to consider is how much border crossing there is. In the Spinward Marches there is a bunch so they would know a lot of Zhodian, Darrian, Sword Worlds, Vargr Maybe Aslan and a few outlaying empire peoples.

Lastly is what type of information is availability Databanks in Traveller are pretty big so there are probably many types of who who volumes in it. The Imperium and we can presume the other major races value education so there are thousands of titles written to explain Aslan's to the little Imperium kids. Than we TAS News and I would extrapolate tons of rags like Super Nova, or Sophants Weekly that bring information all across known space.

So yes, I very much believe Fame stretches far and wide. Moving beyond the Classic Milieu of Traveller to the Galactic scale well Hop drives get you far a field fast so I dont see any reason why if you played on that scale other Sophants would know someone from the other side of the rim.

 

[the.barwickian]

That's why I don't like the fame scale as it is right now. In some places it represents too little change (World System, Inner System, System, Greater system, Outer System, System (again?!?)), in others way too much (like the later stages "All Reality", etc.). I mean come on, if they are going to jump up in distance like that then perhaps there should be a law of diminishing returns or something to counteract that, like maybe it costs more fame "points" to go up higher fame levels.

In that, I'm in total agreement. Given the dominance of the mainworld in most systems, it would seem that being famous enough to be known worldwide would mean being famous throughout the system in most cases.

We're also rather disregarding the population level - being world famous on a world witha population of 200 uis rather different from being world famous on a world with a population of 10s of billions.

Come to think of it, perhaps relating Fame to population code might work. I haven't thought this through, but it may be worth considering.

I can also see a difference between gaining fame intercontinentally on Earth today and in the 3I, simply because of how fast information travels is so very different. I can stream Bollywood movies if I want, I can't do so with Hiver stuff. But, if you want to start taking that into consideration, then you have to consider the speed of travel of information in any circumstance; for example, at TL 2 it would be more like Imperial Space since Traveller was always intended to be like the "Age of Sail", so that would make Earth more like the 3I then. Conversely, if your ATU has Leap drives common, then it becomes a lot easier to get those Hiver import movies and shows. So in conclusion, either you keep it simple like it is, or devise a mechanic that takes into consideration either TL or speed of travel. To do what I'm not sure, but combined with my previous point about Fame levels should have different difficulties to attain, then maybe you'd get something there, if anyone wants to go to that much trouble.

Good point. Perhaps tech level could limit fame through some formula? Though to some extent, that depends how you apply tech levels in your Traveller Universe. I've always considered it a local production level, not an availability level. Higher tech is there (unless it's a delberately anti-tech society), but it imported.

T5 has a slightly different take on tech levels, though, which I need to ponder before I decide whether to apply it.

 

[Supplement Four]

FAME!

I want to live forever. Baby, remember my name.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Gak.

FAME!

I want to live forever. Baby, remember my name.

Damn you just dated yourself pretty bad there. And made a crack I have been resisting for some time. Thanks for saving me.

 

[Bloo]

I asked myself a question: how is Fame used in game mechanics?

Answer: barely at all. If effects Entertainer salaries.
Benchmarks: p.48:
Fame-10 (World) spectacular* (24,000x) entertainer can expect Cr240,000/year.
Fame-3 (Extended Family) good (100x) entertainer can expect Cr3,600/year.
(This bothered me a bit at first, but then I realized it kind of reflects the starving artist, only their family knows they have any talent at all - if they are able to find gigs, the performances are not memorable enough to build their fame. Cover band with only 1-2 gigs/month, a clown that can only get occasional birthday parties, a painter who only gets side jobs doing scenery for stage or screen productions, etc.)

Entertainers are classed in this table (and not elsewhere) as Spectacular, Good, or Ordinary, which are distinct from actual Fame level. I suspect these were intended to be scales of entertainer Talent score, not to be confused with the Talent list. But the book appears to be silent on this.)

It also effects intangible things such as cultural-specific dances like the waltz (Fame-25: Beyond Empire) and the hurap (Fame-7: Large City) in the sense of how difficult they are to identify.

Thus, outside of entertainer salaries and dance identification, Fame has no mechanical meaning as currently defined. So it is up to the individual referee. I think it can reasonably be extended to identify all art, and by extension, all history and politics.

Ultimately, I think Fame is too difficult to do well with lots of mechanics. If you want to do it realistically, you'd have it fade over time, but at different rates based on the thing.

 

[Murdoc]

Ultimately, I think Fame is too difficult to do well with lots of mechanics. If you want to do it realistically, you'd have it fade over time,

You mean like Reliability (QREBS)?

but at different rates based on the thing.

You mean like Quality?

I think it can reasonably be extended to identify all art, and by extension, all history and politics.

I already have house rules that extend QREBS to be able to used with the arts, so maybe Fame can be linked in as well. Hmm...

a clown that can only get occasional birthday parties

Great, thanks for giving me that character idea.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Sorry guys, but I just keep getting that annoying theme tune from that horrible 80's TV series by the name 'Fame'.

Just in case you all forgot the song:

Fame!
I'm gonna live forever.
I'm gonna learn how to fly,
High!
I feel it coming together,
People will see me and cry
Fame!
I'm going to make it to heaven,
Light up the sky like a flame,
Fame!
I'm gonna live forever,
Baby remember my name,
Remember, Remember, Remember, Remember, Remember, Remember.

Fame!
I'm gonna live forever,
Baby remember my name,
Remember, Remember, Remember, Remember, Remember, Remember.

:rofl:

 

[Bloo]

I already have house rules that extend QREBS to be able to used with the arts, so maybe Fame can be linked in as well. Hmm...

I wish you luck. My house rule is no QREBS at all.

 

[Murdoc]

I wish you luck. My house rule is no QREBS at all.

To each his own. Personally it's my favorite part of T5.

 

[Able Baker]

@Hans:

Grandfather

 

[HG_B]

Answer: barely at all. If effects Entertainer salaries.
Benchmarks: p.48:
Fame-10 (World) spectacular* (24,000x) entertainer can expect Cr240,000/year.

Wow, that's hardly anything. It is what some people on those Soap Opera's make who are almost unknown to the general public in their own country.