What do you HATE about CT?

[skyth]

What I don't like about CT is the unbalanced character creation system. You can have the elite character that can do everything extremely well in the same party as a character that got no skills (Or skill-1 in a skill that the elite has at level 3) in creation.

One hack I did with generation to avoid the 'I got a character I didn't want to play' syndrome was to choose the table for the skill rolled after you roll for the skill.

I also have a love/hate relationship with High Guard. I love being able to design ships. However, there is basically certain things that are useless and certain things that are extremely useful which drives ship design to a handful of optimal designs. Combine this with a tech level advantage being an overwhelming advantage.

 

[RainOfSteel]

ROS: you're saying skill 1 isn't employable; that's in fact counter to the CT rules, where Skill 1 is an employable skill, as in, the level of someone working in field. Skill 3 is equivalent to a graduate degree in field (JD, MD, MS)...

I did not say level 1 skills could not be used. I was saying that a character with an all or mostly level 1 skill set is basically incompetent.

I am no longer really sure how I reached this conclusion as I am unable to locate the CT skill/task-resolution system. I am remembering, vaguely, my opinions that formed 25+ years ago based on games played at that time. I haven't really crawled through the detailed mechanics of certain CT system for ages. (HG2 ship building? I reviewed these in the last few years. Book 1 personal combat? Not a glance since 1984-5 or so.)

I have poured over Books 1, 2, and 3 yesterday and today, and I still can't find a skill/task-resolution system. Maybe I blinked? Today I did locate the section in Book 1 on how skills affect combat, so I may have missed the skill/task-resolution system. Could you please help me out on that one?

For character generation, I think I am recollecting that I eventually let people choose skills off the eligible skill tables instead of rolling randomly (they could roll if they wanted). That was a great leap forward.

 

[jawillroy]

I did not say level 1 skills could not be used. I was saying that a character with an all or mostly level 1 skill set is basically incompetent.

I am no longer really sure how I reached this conclusion as I am unable to locate the CT skill/task-resolution system...I have poured over Books 1, 2, and 3 yesterday and today, and I still can't find a skill/task-resolution system. Maybe I blinked?

You didn't blink, 'Cause there wasn't one to be found: IIRC it was DGP that later came up with one that got adopted in full or part by MegaTraveller, but CT didn't have one out of the box.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Yet despite my misgivings about chargen there was an undeniable attraction to the game. I loved the setting, and never really thought twice about the planet generation rules or starship design rules. I spent many enjoyable houses rolling up a sector and making up histories of the planets. Or cooking up my version of the Millennium Falcon.

All of those things are true for me, except for the Star Wars part. I was writing up cruisers and battleships for the Imperium.

 

[RainOfSteel]

You didn't blink, 'Cause there wasn't one to be found: IIRC it was DGP that later came up with one that got adopted in full or part by MegaTraveller, but CT didn't have one out of the box.

I did see the DGP system not too long after it came out in the DGP magazine. I liked it. The system for determining time was not the greatest to me, but I really liked the rest of it. I think the DGP system appeared before MegaTraveller, and I recall that an upgraded version was included. However, I tried to use the MT ship construction rules to build a 200 dTon J-2 trader and kept running into dead ends or inexplicable statements (as they appeared to me at the time) in the design sequence. Regrettably, this was after I had stopped playing Traveller actively and so I decided to skip MT and await a later release. The later released turned out to be TNE. I hated the setting and I was told Fusion, Fire, and Steel had many errors in it, so I never picked up that, either.

I am having trouble remembering what we did for skills when I played CT. Some nearly thirty-year old memory tells me we resorted to using the combat to-hit number of 8+ for standard difficulty skill success, as it was the only goal staring us in the face. This would have meant that with a skill 1, on standard difficulty, you would have failed half the time. (Please don't take that as gospel on what we did. It was a long time ago.)

I seem to recall reading ancient game logs from Foreven.com's campaign history (which has been played for multiple decades in the real world) showing new characters constantly failing at somewhat above average difficulty tasks, as well, which may have reinforced my opinions.

 

[far-trader]

Well, the 8+ was a common default but really only applicable to combat rolls in CT. Each skill (and there weren't a lot so it was no biggie) had specific rolls and adjustments noted in the description, or was left up to the ref to elaborate on. Skill-1 was often more than enough for a wide range of uses.

For example: VaccSuit-1 made you competent with VaccSuits, CombatArmour and BattleDress and included what would later become ZeroG skill. And each level was a DM+4 for rolls with the basic check being 10+ (so Skill-0 was tough, Skill-1 was pretty safe, Skill-2 was all you needed, ever). Oh, and that 10+ roll was only for extraordinary moves (running, jumping, hiding*, jumping untethered between two ships, etc.). For ordinary use and walking around, no roll, so even Level-0 was safe, and anybody was allowed Level-0 by ref fiat.

* aha, another later Skill included for free (and implies that normal hiding is a freebie skill to boot)

Other skills were similar in treatment and effect.

 

[hdan]

One hack I did with generation to avoid the 'I got a character I didn't want to play' syndrome was to choose the table for the skill rolled after you roll for the skill.

Yes, I do that same hack - roll your D6, then pick which table (of the ones you are eligible to use) you want your skill from. It allows players much greater control while still keeping things random. I also allow players to assign their rolled UPP stats as they like, so if they really want a smart character they aren't stuck with the Int they rolled, they can swap it for Str or something. I've even from time to time allowed a player to re-roll a stat, though they also have to re-roll their highest stat at the same time, just to keep thinks fair.

On the other hand, I also like going into CharGen without any preconceived idea about what I want - roll the UPP keeping everything in order, choose a type of home world to get the "tone", then decide what that guy would do with himself and take things from there.

But as far as what I HATE? Not much, though the combat modifiers come close. An untrained guy with an automatic rifle is *always* going to hit someone without armor at long range in a jungle? Really?

 

[RainOfSteel]

What I don't like about CT is the unbalanced character creation system. You can have the elite character that can do everything extremely well in the same party as a character that got no skills (Or skill-1 in a skill that the elite has at level 3) in creation..

Yes, that was another factor, two different characters could have dramatically different amounts of skills and characteristics. Equality was not present.

I also have a love/hate relationship with High Guard. I love being able to design ships. However, there is basically certain things that are useless and certain things that are extremely useful which drives ship design to a handful of optimal designs. Combine this with a tech level advantage being an overwhelming advantage.

I also eventually developed issues with High Guard 2. However, since it was the only real system available at the time, and it was fabulous despite those issues, and it continued to blow the socks off of system that came out years later, I was willing to live with it.

I have taken stabs ant creating a new design sequence. However, since I really want to eliminate large quantities of hydrogen fuel (at all), this creates compatibility issues. I can, of course, produce a design sequence I am happy with. Producing one that others might be happy with would be somewhat more satisfying. This conflict usually makes me give up for a while and come back later.

 

[far-trader]

I had promised myself (bad self, breaking your promise to me ) that I wouldn't wade in here with anti-anti comments (the thread is for rants, not defending, I think there's a "love CT" one for that) but this piqued my curiosity...

...
But as far as what I HATE? Not much, though the combat modifiers come close. An untrained guy with an automatic rifle is *always* going to hit someone without armor at long range in a jungle? Really?

OK, first, encounter range, 2D6 (Jungle DM = -- odd, I recall it being a negative, probably a house rule, oh well), so yeah, you could end up with a Very Long contact. It would have to be across a clearing or something imo. CT (all the old school rpgs) were very big on ref interpretation. So really, the Jungle factor is mooted in this case. Most encounters will be at medium range (6-50m) though.

Next, untrained... PC or NPC? The PC will be Skill-0 which isn't really untrained and won't have a penalty. The NPC will be untrained and have a -5 to hit.

And finally the to hit roll, with a +6 for unarmoured and +1 for long range. We'll presume the target is not evading for a -2 to hit but is instead firing back

So yep, the PC (not untrained, familiarized) will always hit an unarmoured person at long range. It is an automatic rifle. The NPC (who is untrained) that sprays and prays at that range will need to roll 6+ after the DMs to hit.

Single shots by the way use the Rifle column and would be only +2 total DMs for the PC instead of the +7 and will hit on a roll of 6+, and the untrained NPC is going to need to roll 11+

Seems reasonable to me

 

[captainjack]

You didn't blink, 'Cause there wasn't one to be found: IIRC it was DGP that later came up with one that got adopted in full or part by MegaTraveller, but CT didn't have one out of the box.

I'm pretty sure it was originally from the DGP magazine, well before MT. It was ported over because the DGP people designed MT (IIRC).

As to skill system, in fact there is one, and it makes skill-1 quite useful.

here it is (summarized and paraphrased): Unless the skill says otherwise, Roll 8+ for success ; unskilled use is at -3.

Note that this means unskilled use (absent rules such as the vacc suit skill) needs 11+ to succeed, whereas Skill 1 needs 7+. Probabilitywise, 3/36 vs. 21/36. Seven times more likely to succeed. In fact, gaining skill 1 is the best increment in the game. Even skill -5 is only ~50% more likely to succeed : 35/36.

The trick was that you had to enforce/use the -3 to make the skills worthwhile.

The problem was, I think, that the first batch of players (and designers) hadn't yet been exposed to much more explicitly stated skill systems (such as Call of Cthulhu, and later runequest, ICE systems, etc.) so one doesn't see the phrase "skill system rules" nor are they unified by mechanism (which I think is a feature, not a bug, but then, I'm a well known idiot) - and behold ! CT has no skill system.

It did, however lack missile rules in the CT basics.
And the supplement was hard to find before the IntaRwebZ.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Well, the 8+ was a common default but really only applicable to combat rolls in CT. Each skill (and there weren't a lot so it was no biggie) had specific rolls and adjustments noted in the description, or was left up to the ref to elaborate on. Skill-1 was often more than enough for a wide range of uses.

No wonder why I missed it on my recent re-read, as I did not stop to read each skill, I was looking for a section describing how skills were handled. I had, of course, read the skill's individual descriptions many years ago.

When I review them now, I see that not all skills actually list a goal in their descriptions. Some, like Medical, describe each level as a professional standing, but provide no goals. One skill, ATV, describes a vehicle reliability rule, but fails to mention goals for actually driving (and Book 3's vehicles section also does not). Looking back at this today and it's no wonder I couldn't remember anything specific.

My apologies for writing, earlier, that there was no skill/task-resolution system.

I should have written:

• The skill/task-resolution system was on a per-skill basis and those systems were either variable or no obvious systems were provided.

 

[jawillroy]

It did, however lack missile rules in the CT basics.

Yeah, that one always did burn my butt. And I remember, when I first ordered High Guard, imagining that it would enlighten me on that score. . . imagine my horror when I found myself presented with an altogether different and largely incompatible system. . .

 

[captainjack]

The lack of sidebars is what I hate.

I wonder how much difference few sidebar designers notes in the rules would have made on the perception of Traveller -of course, sidebar notes really hadn't entered RPG design then.

Imagine this in the character development section:

" the death in generation rule is actually a very important mechanism to reduce skill bloat and general power-gaming. It makes the player make serious choices about risking an already excellent character in another risky term, in the hopes of gaining an even better edge -either skills, stats or mustering out benefits."

or:

"This worldgen system is not meant to be an astrophysics simulator, nor to be used blindly without input from the GM: it is for generating a mix of generic and highly anomalous worlds as an aid to creativity, or when time is short. Unlike the real world, allow the explanations (the story)to drive the observations (the rolled results)."

or:

Here is an explicit skill system, all in one place, for those used to more wargamy rules style(ie, all in one place, and labeled as such )
Use the mechanisms in the skill descriptions where they exist - not all skills fit the same resolution system. Where there is no specific mechanism, default to a roll of 8+ to succeed. Add appropriate skill level. If no such skill is possessed, the roll is at -3.

or:

"Skills are really binary. If one has a skill, even level one is seven times more likley to succeed than one who lacks the skill. The higher levels improve the odds, but the main step is gaining the skill. Level 1 is professional use, level 3 is graduate training, level 5 is lex luthor levels of ability. Skill 1 is not the equivalent of a level 1 character in other roleplaying games. Considering combat skills only, it is at least equivalent level 3. So stop worrying about having a character sheet with numbers below 10 and 18 all over it and play."

Or:

" this isn't star wars, but, on the other hand, it isn't a real world virtual physics emulator but rather a construct to simulate Oold, pre microcomputer SF about people in space who don't have to worry about magic, or use it to solve problems"

Or the earlier comments about the trade system and the like.

Or how bout....

"obsessed fanboys who seem to hate the game may play, but may need to fix it (and likely play it) on their own"

 

[RainOfSteel]

here it is (summarized and paraphrased): Unless the skill says otherwise, Roll 8+ for success ; unskilled use is at -3.

I'm still looking for it, can you give me a book and page number?

8+ on 2D6 with only +1 from a skill is a fail half the time. (Or can't I do math at the moment? I had two wisdom teeth out yesterday and am on two forms of painkiller, so that isn't an idle question.)

 

[captainjack]

I'm still looking for it, can you give me a book and page number?

Unfortunately, I can't at the moment. Which, I suppose, means I may be imagining it existing in one single place. I'll see what i can find.

8+ on 2D6 with only +1 from a skill is a fail half the time. (Or can't I do math at the moment? I had two wisdom teeth out yesterday and am on two forms of painkiller, so that isn't an idle question.)

Heh. I wish I had that excuse.

Lets see, 8+ with plus 1 is a 7+ for success. 36 permutations on 2d6
7 or better occurs in 6+5+4+3+2+1=21. fail on 6-, or 15/36, ~40%. Classic 3:2 chance of success:fail.

Keep in mind an unskilled person (or NPC with a weapon) has a ~90% fail. Over twice as likely.

From here, really, I guess its a matter of how one sees that as being good or bad, or if it models real life.

BTW, you have my sympathy about the dental work. Hope it feels better soon.

 

[captainjack]

Yeah, that one always did burn my butt.

You're probably standing too close to the missile exhaust port if that keeps happening...

 

[RainOfSteel]

The lack of sidebars is what I hate.

I wonder how much difference few sidebar designers notes in the rules would have made on the perception of Traveller -of course, sidebar notes really hadn't entered RPG design then.

A sidebar explaining character death during character generation? It would have meant nothing. The entire idea is wrong-headed in the majority of cases. Players hate it, to start with. They do not have time to waste working on character generation that is already going to give them something they didn't want, only to have it interrupted with death and a complete waste of all time expended. The idea that it forces players to make choices about whether they continue or not irrelevant. Characters with few terms are even more incompetent than normal. On the first term you get two to four skill points (not counting eligible freebies), and you only get three or four if you get a commission and a promotion. Wow, two to four skill points, at most. An Army player could start with Air/Raft-1 and Admin-1; so much for that martial-artist/rifleman that was desired. I continue to stand against this in every possible way.

That people may die during their service may be realistic, but it is not playable or desirable except maybe to a handful who enjoy tossing aside their work because they have unlimited amounts of time to try again (and actually enjoy doing that).

The world generator might have needed that side-bar, but the sectors of the Imperium weren't generated until years later and they could have written up any algorithm they wanted. Note, I do not know what actually did get used to create the GEnie/Sunbane data; but it did not take into account neighboring world's physical characteristics when determining social characteristics, half the Imperium's population (approximately) lived on vacuum rockballs. I strongly doubt there was any GM-style tweaking to assure more realistic results.

 

[captainjack]

From here, really, I guess its a matter of how one sees that as being good or bad, or if it models real life.

Somewhat OT additional comment about skills:

To me, a 90% unskilled fail rate does imply that the hardness of the task is a bit of a challenge for a competent level 1 type. Less than that should be a gimmie for most level one.

Computer -1 gimmie: Install VilaniiSoft office software. A noob with any tech experience can do it, but may screw it up once or twice.

Computer -1 bit of a challenge: Revert the files back to an earlier modification date using the Frammiz Frazzlliii FraaamiStanniii interface (the vilanii BIOS Command line system, dontcha know) and you don't normally do it but Vilanii IT support cant help you for nine and one half lustrim, and thats just to complete your ticket number assignment request. Will need manuals. Noob will very likely blow it.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Lets see, 8+ with plus 1 is a 7+ for success. 36 permutations on 2d6

Ok, ok. I wasn't being precise, in my earlier context, half and slightly better than half meant the same thing.

Still, I can assure you, I wouldn't want a Medical-1 to even do beginning work on me.

I recall going into a major local hospital once about 11 years ago for food poisoning (it was night time on Sunday). They emergency room chose to give me phenergen. I had never heard of it before and they said it was an anti-nausea drug. An IV port was inserted into my left arm and the nurse came by and injected the drug through the port. My entire arm turned into a molten river of fire one second later. They passed it off as me being sensitive to the drug. My arm ached for literally three months in gradually decreasing amounts afterward.

About two years later I had food poisoning again and went into an insurance authorized clinic as it was daytime on a weekday. They also wanted to give my phenergen. When I expressed some serious hesitation, they all stared at me like I was stupid. They ferreted out of me what happened previously, and they shook their heads, "No, phenergen is meant to be injected slowly over about 30-60 seconds." The nurse injected it very slowly (I made them do it in my right arm) and there were no adverse affects at all. That Medical-1 nurse at the hospital failed the roll to assist me properly and then lied about the failure.

 

[captainjack]

< snip>I continue to stand against this in every possible way.

Okay, I get that you like explicit character design; and I even get why. So, clearly, those are conditions which you require to play or run a game. Okay.

Players and GMs who dislike it, don't use it. And if you want to play a character that you design, the GM will either allow or disallow it. In the final analysis, the rules are all just ways to deal with situations that the DM doesn't want to or is unable to resolve.

I have never met a GM who plays exactly strictly by the book; I suspect such is a myth. Most can take or leave any part of any set of rules. Players generally are there to play a game, which means some level of cooperation with the games structure, and this includes the GM -hes cooperating with the players, as well.
Show up at a game and ask to play a designed character or at least one with a clear vision. If it fits the mood and level of the game, you have a good chance of getting a yes, I'll guess. I know I always did it if it wasn't somthing that was guaranteed to unbalance the game (rifleman/martial artist, sure. Rifleman/martial artist/psionic/starpilot/ninja/scientist/racecar driver/test pilot/physics genius/natural leader/tactical genius/venture capitalist/rock star, not so much, unless we are playing Buckaroo Banzi)

That people may die during their service may be realistic, but it is not playable or desirable except maybe to a handful who enjoy tossing aside their work because they have unlimited amounts of time to try again (and actually enjoy doing that).

How long do you take rolling dice ? I mean, I have much less time now than I did when Traveller came out, but rolling a CT character, even with death at term 6 takes, what -five minutes ? I myself rebelled at systems that took hours to generate characters (space opera, Spacemaster, any of the central casting systems), but five minutes ? If that amount of time can't be lost, I'm amazed that you can find time to game at all; and no, I'm not being sarcastic or snarky.

The world generator might have needed that side-bar, but the sectors of the Imperium weren't generated until years later and they could have written up any algorithm they wanted. Note, I do not know what actually did get used to create the GEnie/Sunbane data;

<interrupt> a flawed computer implimentation of the worldgen system of CT + some mish mash of later mods...and lots of logic problems (computer logic, boolean, like) <resume>

but it did not take into account neighboring world's physical characteristics when determining social characteristics

<interrupt>okay, YOU try writing an algorithm that interactively conditionally accounts for nearby object variables. Go ahead. Use a 1982 56k commodore home PC, too. I'll be over here running some weighted centroid cluster analysis on my 2011 pentium quad core box. <Resume>

, half the Imperium's population (approximately) lived on vacuum rockballs. I strongly doubt there was any GM-style tweaking to assure more realistic results.

Its entirely possible that realism wasn't their first goal. Should it have been? Up to the conscience of the individual, I think.

[FONT=arial,helvetica]"The quality of the crate matters little. Success depends upon who sits in it." [/FONT]

Applies to the traveller GM as much as it does to a fighter pilot.


Its a fun discussion, but I think we've reached the Agree to Disagree point. My comments are veering close to accusing you of making wrongbadthink, so we may be solidly in opinionstan.