What do you HATE about CT?

[Murph]

Ok, its nit-pick time, what do you HATE about Classic Traveller?

Mine:
a) Computers- Aaaaarrrrgggggh, I hate the computer system of CT. It sucks.
b) Combat- although Striker/Snapshot made it better, it still was not perfect.
c)Tasks- the DGP Task system was excellent.
d) Cost of space travel, unless you ran spec trade in a 200 ton ship you ALWAYS lost money.

NEXT???

 

[jfetters]

Computers/cassettes, definitely and (hindsight here) over-simplified chargen.

Oh yeah - Backpack lasers. I wanted blasters, dammit!

 

[Malenfant]

Everything?

I can't find many redeeming features in CT. IMO chargen was a nightmare, the game engine is overly simplistic, ship design is obtuse, the designers force you to think in hexadecimal...

The only thing I liked was the worldgen in book 6, and even that is badly flawed. But at least it was a step in the right direction.

 

[far-trader]

First define "Classic Traveller".

Is it LBB 1-3 or do you consider all the later LBB editions and Supplements also? And the Journals? And what else?

For my definition of Classic Traveller (LBB 1-3) I hate absolutely nothing. It is what it is. And in that respect, barring a very few bits of errata it is great. Better than anything in Traveller that came after each set taken as a whole though each had its own great bits.

For my definition of Classic Traveller Plus (everything after LBB 1-3 until Mega Traveller), the only thing I could feel strongly enough about to hate are:

1) The internal inconsistancies, bound to happen though.

2) A creeping level of errata, again natural enough, and not too bad really. Though it exploded in MT, perhaps only because it was all collected in one place.

3) The total detachment from game reality of so many of the official deckplans.

Of those, the first two are merely annoying, it is only the last one I really hate.

Well there is one thing about Classic Traveller I may hate more than the deckplan errors. That is posts about what do you HATE about CT

Of course they are a guaranteed conversation starter

 

[Mickazoid]

Like my friend 'far trader', I love CT.

Everything you can hate about it, you can learn to love about it. Just soak up the parts you want to use and ignore the stuff you don't.

In my games, we invented new empires so a lot of the specifics of historical canon from the later books and JTAS weren't as relevant. That was one part (the canon backstory) I never really 'soaked up' quite so much, preferring to base our games on more cinematic or literary themes. My cousin was the best at it - he once told us our campaign had been adapted from a Civil War-era battle

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Murph:
Ok, its nit-pick time, what do you HATE about Classic Traveller?

Mine:
a) Computers- Aaaaarrrrgggggh, I hate the computer system of CT. It sucks.
b) Combat- although Striker/Snapshot made it better, it still was not perfect.
c)Tasks- the DGP Task system was excellent.
d) Cost of space travel, unless you ran spec trade in a 200 ton ship you ALWAYS lost money.

I guess we're at cross-ends. I really like the computer system on starships. It's fun, and I can reason it out logically, even with today's standards. I consider the "computer" a "computer system", being referred to as a single "computer" for convienience. I don't think it should have ever been taken away from Traveller in later versions.

I like the combat system, except for armor making targets harder to hit. Switch those DMs around though, so that the armor DMs modify damage, and the combat system is cool.

I like how there's more separation in weapons, because of the DMs, in CT rather than a system like MT. In MT, most weapons hit on a 7+. In CT, with the DMs included, target numbers are varied for different weapons.

The Striker/AHL combat system is a good one. I like it. I just like the CT system a tad better.

The task system is something in CT that needs improvement, but then...there's the UGM. The UGM fits CT like a glove. The MT task system is good too (not as good as the UGM, imo, but a good system none-the-less). And, I even like the loose CT task system shown in The Traveller Adventure.

Cost of space travel in CT: I see your point, but I do like how hard it is to make money in CT. That's focused towards "gaming" and role playing, in my mind.

The more I play CT, the more I think it is the superior Traveller system out of all of them.


Sure, CT has it's faults. But it just seems more fun than any other Trav system I've played.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Murph:
Ok, its nit-pick time, what do you HATE about Classic Traveller?

Mine:
a) Computers- Aaaaarrrrgggggh, I hate the computer system of CT. It sucks.

What, exactly, do you HATE about it? What sucks? It always worked fine for us. Simplified yes, so what, the game was (for us) about the adventure, not worrying that some far future tech didn't fit our concept of what a computer was or how programming would work.

Originally posted by Murph:
b) Combat- although Striker/Snapshot made it better, it still was not perfect.

Again, it was simple, fast, and worked for us. It let us tell our stories and do our deeds, it was light years ahead of the other game we played at the time (D&D if you must know). I don't see what was to hate about it. We did try some Striker, never got into it, we played more personal level games and not so combat oriented. Snapshot had some rules we did add, for a while, but it tended to just bog the game down in the uninteresting bit (combat).

Originally posted by Murph:
c)Tasks- the DGP Task system was excellent.

Excellent? There are a few who will argue that. It was ok, but again my feeling was it took away from the role playing in favour of roll playing. I will grant that CT could have done tasks better, but then we usually just played it off the cuff, 8+ and mods we felt fit.

Originally posted by Murph:
d) Cost of space travel, unless you ran spec trade in a 200 ton ship you ALWAYS lost money.

Ah, you almost had me with you here Murph

I agree the costs of space travel are too high, by a factor of 10 in my ballpark guess, but it's dictated by the cost of the ships which are again in my opinion too high in cost. Drop both by a factor of 10 and I can believe in business and pleasure travel at the levels that CT suggests.

But, you're dead wrong, or leaving out details, when you say you can't make money on regular mercantile activity with a 200ton ship. With the Type A Free-Trader you'd have to be travelling some really sucky systems to NOT make your payments. With any of the other ships, of course you're going to have the bank siezing your ship, because they are not designed to make money. Not even the Type A2 Far-Trader, at least not without speculative trade. But you can make money with a J2 trader if it's designed and operated properly.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Jim Fetters:
Computers/cassettes, definitely and (hindsight here) over-simplified chargen.

Again with the computers I know, it's what most people seem to hate about the game, but you're looking at it wrong imo.

Over-simplified chargen I have to take issue with as well. It was simple yes, but that's not a fault. Compare it with D&D, even AD&D. Those rules didn't generate "characters". They created archtypes and stereotypes. CT created "characters". Living and breathing people with souls and history, and all with a few simple D6 rolls and imagination. Could it have had more? Sure, and we added it as needed. Want a new skill? The book says talk to the ref about it and work it out. You don't need to be limited to what is printed

Which also answers the next...

Originally posted by Jim Fetters:
Oh yeah - Backpack lasers. I wanted blasters, dammit!

And you could have made them up for the game. Nothing said you couldn't and the rules were simple enough that it could be done with a little (very little) work. What's more the combat system was chunky (non-nitty-gritty-detailed) enough that you wouldn't have unbalanced things badly unless you intentionally did so.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Everything?

I can't find many redeeming features in CT. IMO chargen was a nightmare, the game engine is overly simplistic, ship design is obtuse, the designers force you to think in hexadecimal...

The only thing I liked was the worldgen in book 6, and even that is badly flawed. But at least it was a step in the right direction.

So, only nearly everything

Chargen was a dream imo and experience, no nightmare qualities for us.

Simple game engine yes, and as noted a plus imo, and not overly simplistic.

Obtuse ship design? Because the mechanics of the system are not spelled out and you're limited to a set of values from a table? Or because some parts are defined in a percieved arbitrary manner? Or why exactly? I'm just curious.

Forced to think in hex eh?

Guess my brain must be wired that way since it never seemed to be an issue. Certainly I never found it forced, I just used it. I actually found it a wonder that I could make notations of single digit/letters to mean more. F is 15! Wow! But then I also liked and learned shorthand at an early age too (sadly now largely forgotten, use it or lose it). And codes in general have always been fun for me to play with. Yep, my brain is probably wired for it.

In fact, what you find a step in the right direction, perhaps due to your own passions, I found complications that were never needed (or at least so seldom used as to be pointless). Don't get me wrong, I liked the ideas of being able to detail whole starsystems. Multiple suns, more planets to explore, moons of those worlds just waiting for the Traveller's. But you know what happend? I'd detail a system (or several for the fun) and the players would pop in at the gas giant, skim some fuel, and jump on to the next system. Never a minute to spare to admire the binary sunset from the fourth moon of the little desert world. It got to the point where I wanted to create a party of Travellers without a starship just so I could 'force' them to explore a single solar system. Give them some old small craft and have them trade in a single system for a while, like until they could afford a downpayment on a starship. I hoped by then that they'd be in love with the idea of staying in the single system, or at least have an appreciation for exploring the other systems they'd visit a little more. But we didn't play much more by that point, and when we did it was easier to just fall into our old style of gaming.

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by Murph:
Ok, its nit-pick time, what do you HATE about Classic Traveller?

Nothing.

I LIKE CT very much.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Black Globe Generator:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Murph:
Ok, its nit-pick time, what do you HATE about Classic Traveller?

Nothing.

I LIKE CT very much. </font>[/QUOTE]So, if you "like CT very much", why are you answering this thread? The topic obviously isn't aimed at you.

 

[Mickazoid]

Be nice, badkid

 

[Malenfant]

I'm not sure why it's not "nice" to point out the obvious here.

This clearly isn't some 'town hall meeting' type thread where people that are on both sides of the argument can show up and voice their opinion. It's a thread specifically asking what people don't like about something. It's obvious that the opinions of people who like it aren't of interest here - if they were, then the OP would have phrased the question to be more inclusive of them.

To use a somewhat negative example (but hey, it's a thread about hating something

), it's like turning up to a hate rally and shouting "I like what you hate!". Except here you wouldn't be physically beaten to a pulp for saying it.

 

[sid6.7]

classic traveller(CT) is GREAT!

with just books 1-3 you can create anything you
would want....and you dont need a degree in
AD&D to create/play or run a game...

 

[Mickazoid]

Yes, but if someone wants to simply say there's nothing they don't like, a harsh post castigating them for posting that isn't really fair.

And I think the question of 'whose opinions aren't wanted' isn't really fair for you to make. This is a community forum, not a hate rally, and different rules apply. I just think you can ignore folks without deciding their opinions aren't wanted.

 

[Jame]

Mickazoid, our friend Malenfant is ... rather hot-tempered. Not that we'd try to change him, of course!

I don't hate anything about CT, but I would change the computers, the high-tech gadgets and the tech advancement. Plus figure out how to add in GURPS-esque UltraTech.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by mickazoid:
Yes, but if someone wants to simply say there's nothing they don't like, a harsh post castigating them for posting that isn't really fair.

I think it's entirely fair. The fact that they like it and have nothing to complain about quite clearly excludes them from contributing anything meaningful to the discussion. And I wasn't in the slightest bit "harsh" with it either.

And I think the question of 'whose opinions aren't wanted' isn't really fair for you to make. This is a community forum, not a hate rally, and different rules apply. I just think you can ignore folks without deciding their opinions aren't wanted. [/QB]

Maybe you should take that up with the original poster of the thread then, since he's the one that was explicitly asking for what people HATED about CT. Personally, if I see a thread asking "what do you specifically like about X" or "what do you specifically hate about X" then I think it's pretty pointless to post a contrary opinion, since that wasn't what was asked for.

But you know, whatever. Heaven forfend that nasty things like logic and common sense should get in the way of discussions here.

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
This clearly isn't some 'town hall meeting' type thread where people that are on both sides of the argument can show up and voice their opinion.

It isn't?

Malenfant, the question was, what do you hate about CT - my answer is, there's nothing I hate about it.

Did I violate the code of conduct for the site with my reply? Was my post argumentative, or laced with profanity? Did I link something that's NSFW? How is the OP, or you, or anyone else who reads the thread, negatively impacted by my post on A PUBLIC INTERNET FORUM?

Malenfant, coming from the most notorious thread-crapper on this site, your criticism is a real larf.

(By the way, I'm starting the countdown to the next time you have a pissy fit and go storming off to hide under whatever rock it is you call home - this will be, what, the third time? Fourth? I've honestly lost count.)

 

[Malenfant]

It's funny how people complain loudly about "thread-crapping" when someone posts how they don't like X on a thread that's about what people like about X.

But if you do the reverse - post about how you like X on a thread asking about what people hate about X - then suddenly that isn't 'thread-crapping', even though it's exactly as contrary to the intent of the thread? Hmm.

I had a wander around the net to find a definition of the term and most forums that defined it used something like this:

"Thread Crapping" occurs when a person comes into a thread and posts something contrary to the intent of the thread, often derailing the discussion or turning it into an argument.

It seems to me that you're the one that's thread-crapping here, BGG...

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
It's funny how people complain loudly about "thread-crapping" when someone posts how they don't like X on a thread that's about what people like about X.

Except that I'm not complaining about it, Malenfant - you are, repeatedly. I'm pointing out what a hypocrite you are for complaining about it.

Why do you visit this site, Malenfant? Seriously, I'd really like to know, because after reading through the archives and finding post after post after post where you rip on Traveller over and over again for not being the game you think it should be, I am at a loss to figure out what you get out of this, except for one thing: the ego boost that comes from people saying, "Oh, thank you, Malenfant, for teaching me the orbital mechanics I could find in most Astronomy 101 texts!"

Do you have a hard time finding or keeping graduate students? Is that what brings you back to CotI over and over again? And when you don't get the adulation you feel you deserve, is that why you storm off and decry Traveller gamers and designers as ignorant?

Please, enlighten me, doctor - why are you here?