TRAVELLER 5 - My Thoughts And Comments REDUX

[SpaceBadger]

To me, T5 is the ultimate SciFi toolkit RPG. I'm just too old and lazy to be able to commit to learning such a massive system.

Greetings to a fellow mustelid! I don't have T5 yet, but from what I am reading here I suspect I will follow your approach. Have you been reading any of Robject's threads about stealing various subsystems from T5 to use w CT? I can see myself doing that.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Not really the problem here. The problem is being presented with a MASSIVE amount of data poorly formatted, incompletely explained & demonstrated.

T5 poorly formatted, incompletely explained & demonstrated??? Frankly I don't believe that, from what I've read so far, it's very well explained, demonstrated and well laid out. Just take the dice rolls chapter for example. If it was explained in any more detail I think I would have been skim reading to get away from it.

I don't believe there's ever been an edition of Traveller that's this detailed and WELL written. Big deal if there's the odd typo etc, the main bulk of the information is sound.

 

[HG_B]

T5 poorly formatted, incompletely explained & demonstrated??? Frankly I don't believe that,

 

[Spaceresearcher]

I'm going to make comments as I read the rules. Note that my opinion may change after I end up grasping an entire concept.

Verbose: My first thought as I started reading--and this is an extremely minor nit-pick--is that Marc is a bit wordy, almost academic, with the text. He writes in a style that requires careful reading and re-reading. Some people (I've read in reviews) are having trouble with the rules, wanting examples. I wonder if Marc's writing style has something to do with this. And, maybe the page count could have been cut down a bit, too.

But, like I said, this is an itty-bitty thing, hardly worth mentioning.



Range Bands: I first spied Range Bands in Starter Traveller (which was also my introduction to Traveller). They're back in T5. And, this time, the rules show how the Range bands can be set to different scales. That's a plus, in my book. Same concept used at different unit measures.



Combat Round: From what I've read so far, it seems that T5 is going way old school, back to a one minute combat round a'la AD&D. The combat round is not specific. It's abstract, again like AD&D. The combat round may represent several pulls of the trigger on a weapon, but only one attack roll is made.

Each round, a character can move and act. The action may be an attack or soemthing else, like using his comm.

Simple enough. I like it.

Question to investigate: Since a person can fire a whole clip in just a few seconds, how is ammo tracked in this game? Can he reload a magazine and continue to fire in the same one minute combat round?



Attack Throw: I'm not fond of the roll-low T4 task system embraced by this game, but it's just something I'm going to have to accept if I'm to continue with T5. At this point, the heavily disliked task system is not a deal breaker.

And, the combat attack is just another task. Range determines difficulty, not unlike it was with T4.

- The Fighting Task -

Roll xD for a number at or below Skill + Attribute + Mods.

Would the reload issue not be solved by a dexterity role with negative flux(performing an action in the heat of the moment) to see if a clip could be reloaded faster than say a soldier in the movies(normally 5 - 10 seconds)? Then if an agreed amount of shots per round is declared(20 rounds for example), then 60/20 = 3 seconds, so 4 rounds would be lost performing the reload(time rounded up). If the dexterity role is failed then only the rounds fired before the loading would take place and the combatant has to wait until the next round before firing can continue. (Also to allow everyone else to see what there firing and other actions are doing).
The question would be, after a reload, is the combatant able to continue firing as accurately? I'd probably declare the next rounds after the reload to be less effective as the combatant has to re-aim there weapon. Simply a higher to hit number determined once again by a harder dexterity role with negative flux.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Well that's how you put it correct?

 

[Supplement Four]

With that said, after a in depth skimming of the book, this is the first version of Traveller that is just too much for me. Too verbose, too much complicated math, too much man, too much.

The jury is still out on whether I'm going to embrace T5. I see things I really like. And, I see things that I don't care for.

But, let me help you a bit.

Most of T5--the vast majority of the pages--are devoted to the Makers. Ignore these. Don't look at them. Save them for later.

What do you have left?

A roleplaying game--what you're used to.

You've got a section on character generation with careers.

You've got a section on skills.

You've got a section on the task system.

You've got a section on personal combat.

Take your T5 brick of a book and place it next to the John. The next time you're in the "Library" (or, as just as you go to bed at night), start reading just one of those sections. JUST ONE! Don't skip around. Don't read anything else. Don't worry if there's something that you don't understand.

And, take your time with that one section. You're not in a race. Just pick up the book, use a bookmark, and read a few pages, here and there, until you've completed it.

Once that's done, congrats, you've learned an aspect of T5.





Then, picking only from the sections above, read a different section, treating it the same way as you treated the first section.

Repeat the process until you're done with those primary sections above.


Then, and ONLY THEN, venture out to read something else, like Space Combat, or one of the Makers.

I promise you, you'll have a better understanding of T5, and you won't feel so overwhelmed.





I'm following my own advice. I received the book Monday night, and here it is Thursday, and I'm still reading the first section that I started with--Personal Combat.

That's already led to a much wider appreciating for what T5 has to give.

And, what I thought would be overwhelming and quite complicated, I found really isn't. Combat in T5 is actually pretty simple.

I suspect that I'll find the same once I dig into the other sections of the book.

Would the reload issue not be solved by a dexterity role with negative flux(performing an action in the heat of the moment) to see if a clip could be reloaded faster than say a soldier in the movies(normally 5 - 10 seconds)?

I don't really think there is a "reload issue" with T5. One minute is a looonnng time. Characters could easily fire a couple of rounds, dig a mag from their belt, then slap it into the weapon, and fire some more--all within the single combat round.

Even though all that firing is taking place, the character gets one attack throw for the round using Aimed Fire.

That's the way abstract rounds work. Since the combat round is so long and abstract, the thing to do is just assume characters reload when necessary.

 

[BytePro]

...Since the combat round is so long and abstract, the thing to do is just assume characters reload when necessary.

That is a reasonable assumption.

However, for roleplay goodness, I wouldn't always assume success. Fumbled/failed reloads could be accounted for, especially given the QREBS system (ala Reliability/Ease-of-use).

 

[Supplement Four]

That is a reasonable assumption.

However, for roleplay goodness, I wouldn't always assume success. Fumbled/failed reloads could be accounted for, especially given the QREBS system (ala Reliability/Ease-of-use).

You could also roll Spectacular Failure, or whatever it is called in this game, and do something with a jammed weapon or a dropped/fumbled magazine.

 

[Spartan159]

Spectacular Failure while shooting, probable jammed/misfire.

Spectacular Failure while reloading, probable jam or magazine fumble.

These would be my normal interpretation. Make em roll for reloading, in a combat environment it's NOT the same as calmly doing it while waiting to shoot.

 

[Supplement Four]

Make em roll for reloading, in a combat environment it's NOT the same as calmly doing it while waiting to shoot.

In a one minute combat round, though?

What if they fired their last bullet from a clip on second 3 of the 60 second combat round? Then, they have 57 seconds to insert a new clip.

You'd make 'em roll for that?

 

[Spartan159]

Hell yeah, you get the adrenalin pumping and there's no telling. Training will make up for it. Combat veteran with weapon skill is probably not gonna have a problem. Civilian with little skill may be a different matter, he may want to do a cautious task. There are people shooting at you during that minute.

GM oversight here is obviously warranted, how he feels combat is progressing is the bottom line. If it's hot and heavy, roll. If it's just a few shots being exchanged with the Indians outside the house then no need to roll reload, GM's discretion. YMMV

 

[Supplement Four]

A Thought On Armor

In T5, if armor is ever penetrated, it becomes useless. I can see that as a good, basic rule.

I think it would be quite easy to tweak this rule by just altering the Armor's Armor Value after a hit.

What if you halved it after each penetration?





Or, you could reduce the AV by the amount of penetration.

For example, a weapon does Bullet-3 damage, and 8 is rolled. AV 7 is penetrated by 1 point, and the armor protection is reduced to AV 6.

In a later combat round, the character is hit again by Bullet-2 damage, and 9 is rolled. That means 3 points penetrate, and armor is reduced to AV 3.

In yet a later combat round, the character is hit a third time by Bullet-1, and one die is rolle for 6. 3 points penetrate, and armor is reduced to AV 0 AND THEN destroyed.


In another example, a character with AV 7 armor is hit by Bullet-3 damage. Damage is 15 points, and the armor is obliterated with that hit.

 

[Supplement Four]

Hell yeah, you get the adrenalin pumping and there's no telling.

LOL! (I'm laughing at your "Hell Yeah!") Cracks me up.

I gotcha. Point made and accepted.

 

[Spartan159]

From my post on wound severity:

One thing I would use hit locations for is armor, I'm sorry but I'm not going to say that battledress loses all protection because of one penetration. I'd be willing to go with it loses protection in the penetration location however.

Yes, more to keep track of, then again if you use a combat sheet, easy enough to X the spot and hope you don't get hit in the same location again. all of a few seconds of record keeping.

My 0.02 Cr

I can live with losing all protection in one place, just not the whole suit. Anything more and you get into the extensive record keeping.

Then again if you use a record sheet nothing saying you can't have armor value check boxes too.

FYI I played Battletech back in the day, I'm trained for filling in the dots

 

[Supplement Four]

Yes, I think you could easily use the hit location system to destroy only parts of armor.

You could blow off the protection on the left arm, for example, but consider any other hit to be at full AV protection. If the character is hit a second time in the left arm, then that hit is treated against AV 0, but any other hit would be penalized by the full AV of the armor.

That's a pretty good idea, and it doesn't really require a tweak.

I like this idea better than my reduction of AV idea above. It's less fussy. Just mark whether AV is missing on the equipment sheet.

 

[Spartan159]

I think the average player could go along with this, fast and easy to keep track of and armor is not a total waste after the first penetration.

Now for the 0.60 Cr question, can you patch armor like you can a Vacc suit? maybe bring the armor back up to a predetermined value, less than the full value? how long to apply this patch, how long for it to set?

 

[atpollard]

I don't think that "1 penetration = armor useless" passes the real world laugh test ...

... Imagine a ballistic cloth vest with ceramic inserts (typical modern police body armor). Now imagine a 30-06 round punches right through it. Now my entire torso is covered in ballistic cloth with a single 0.3 inch diameter hole in it. My entire torso is protected by ceramic plates except for a single 4 inch wide shattered plate. Now imagine that all of this armor suddenly offers no protection.

... I can't.

I mean are you really going to put your second round through the same 0.3 inch hole? :file_19:

 

[BytePro]

Yes, tracking wounds and armor damage is very easy with a little visual, or just jot the location down (esp. when considering front and back and things like 'blown off big toe'). This is how I've done it for decades.

[I tried to make visuals and random rolls for location - but there's just too many once I start trying to explicitly define them, and it sucks for aliens and robots. So I use the rolls to inform how 'bad', along with the situation (are they running when shot; potentially hit in the back side due to location, munition, or ricochet) and wing it as a Ref. If collateral damage may result (suit systems/mobility), then I usually have Players make a roll.]

Spectacular failures - if only specific unlucky rolls qualify (ala rolling 12 or 3 one's), then everyone has the same exact failure odds. IMO this is not good. (MgT's approach of being X off target for degree of failure allows DMs to factor in.)

Reload fumble vs Jam - dropping rounds/clip/mag could hold up firing in the round, but Jamming could extend past a round. QREBS should logically factor in to the later (in addition to skills).

As to repairing armor - VacPaste is the JB-Weld of my Traveller 'verse and works in a pinch.

Temp repairing armor during combat is unusual, but a must in vacuum or other dangerous atmo (and chemical weapon/confined space) situations. Higher TL armor is self repairing IMTU. Again, I handle this situationally - depends on the nature and severity of the damage. If hit by discrete shots, damage may just be a hole and easily repaired, or self sealing (I use energy weps a lot - many create a melt-closure/seal and cauterize wounds). Otherwise the nature of the damage is such that repairs don't result in restoring armor protection in that location (except my nano-tech suits, which still have a 'repair reserve').

I also support collateral damage - ex: if in a full body suit, damage to life support and augments can also occur - resulting in having to remove all or part of the armor.

[All of this sounds complicated - and is if one tries to predefine everything. But its easy in practice and with adhoc rolls. <shrug>]

 

[Uriel]

I have to agree Atpollard. For most armor to be rendered useless in one shot would require something that blew off not just the body armor but the body part in question.

I think a combination of hit location and degraded armor protection in the location actually hit is the way to go. Obviously you could lose specific effects of a suit of armor to one penetration, for example you would no longer be sealed from vacuum or the environment (assuming you were before the hit).

 

[Supplement Four]

I don't think that "1 penetration = armor useless" passes the real world laugh test ...

Your point is valid, no doubt. But, never-the-less, that is the rule in T5 as I read it. Once an armor is defeated, it is no longer useful.

First, remember that the armor can withstand countless shots that did not penetrate. That damage is not tracked. Instead, it looks like Marc went with the simple rule that, once a shot penetrates, then the armor value goes to zero. That's a lot easier than keeping track of armor "hit points" that degrade bit by bit.

Second, remember we're dealing with a one minute, very abstract, combat round. Through those glasses, the armor penetration rule is a bit more palatable.

Third, the rule is very easy to tweak, as we've shown above, with my first thought of armor degradation in accordance with penetration, and then Spartan159's better thought of using the Hit Location System to only defeat part of an armor's body coverage--not the entire set of armor.