Tourists on Heya

[BytePro]

...Say the average tourist arrives at Atarishii Down (Heya's downport) and spends three months on Heya. How many Imperial credits does he leave behind when he goes home?...

Figure out how much by working backward - from % you want to come from tourism. You could also have several 'classes' of tourist - such as those who do not really spend much (paid for packages), those who are there to really splurge and indulge themselves, and those who take advantage of the local economy (outside resorts).

In the RW, tourists to poorer economies tend to spend very little of dailies of food and lodgings and even live entertainment - often these are included in a package. Their monies go to extras - like alcohol, gambling and services.

 

[aramis]

CT-Cr1 effectively is Cr1...

...but the housing listed is tennament pricing. Low end apartments in rural towns seem the basis. I find it more like Soc 2/4/6/8, not 1/2/7/A.

Poorly chosen, and very midwestern USA.

Alaska, by comparison cost 50-100% more...

 

[rancke]

I find it more like Soc 2/4/6/8, not 1/2/7/A.

I could give you an argument about that -- Soc 2 eating at starvation level? Soce 4 doing no better than subsistence level? High living being what people one step above the average enjoys?

But why bother? Cr250/SL/month is still broken. Someone whose cost of living is Cr500 per month pays Cr60 for starvation level sustenance and Cr60 for crappy lodgings, and Cr380 on clothes and luxuries? I don't think so.


Hans

 

[BytePro]

Traveller doesn't really lend itself to a 'realistic' economic model... because everything is a set 'price' and thus the 'value' of a Cr is fixed. In the RW this model simply doesn't exist on any real scale and even most local ones.

 

[rancke]

Traveller doesn't really lend itself to a 'realistic' economic model... because everything is a set 'price' and thus the 'value' of a Cr is fixed. In the RW this model simply doesn't exist on any real scale and even most local ones.

Not at all. One just needs to realize that Traveller's fixed prices are exactly the same thing as the price lists in any historical game. The economy of America in the 1920s is just as fixed in Call of Cthulhu, those of England in A Green and Pleasant Land, those of 1890 London in Cthulhu by Gaslight, etc. etc.. That doesn't mean that these places didn't have realistic economies -- just that you shouldn't read more into RPG rules than they can bear.


Hans

 

[BytePro]

Those examples are all very localized relative to Traveller.

Worlds (not to mention star systems) are much, much more largely disparate in terms of resources, climates, tech levels, travel times etc., such that demands for goods and services would thus vary tremendously. A simplistic model with fixed valuation just does not work 'realistically', even when that is defined with a broad and shallow brush for a game's sake.

Not saying it doesn't work for a game (though IMTU prices aren't fixed) - but to extrapolate things from it as a model is just not going to give readily believable results much of the time.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Whay happened to my long and involved post? It's those bloody Zhos ...

Anyway, how much do they spend. The short answer I came up with:

8,000 idle rich (from Efate spending the odd month), spending Cr 50,000 Imperial, of which Cr 25,000 is costs and Cr 25,000 goes into the Heya Economy. In 7 star resorts.

16,000 very rich (those who work for a living from Efate taking a couple of weeks off), spending Cr 25,000 Imperial, of which Cr 12,500 is costs and Cr 12,500 goes into the Heya Economy. In 6 star resorts.

20,000 tourists (once in a life time trip to Heya!), spending Cr 5,000, Cr 2,500 costs, Cr 2,500 into the economy of Heya. In 5 star resorts.

This puts in MCr 450 into Heya's economy (about 5%), brings in MCr 450 in imports from the Subsector (balance of payments neural).

It's about 850 people a week. The B class starport is there to service the idle rich's yachts, and provide for the MCr 450 in imports that services the tourist trade.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[BytePro]

That's a good short answer.

Is there a formula behind it, or is it made up to fit the situation?

LOL, first read of 'X star resort' I didn't take for a quality rating, but rather a X 'star-resorts'...

 

[rancke]

8,000 idle rich (from Efate spending the odd month), spending Cr 50,000 Imperial, of which Cr 25,000 is costs and Cr 25,000 goes into the Heya Economy. In 7 star resorts.

What's the difference between the money that goes into the Heyan economy and the money that doesn't? And where does that end up?

And 50,000 credits is the equivalent of 1,250,000 local credits. Just what do these tourists spend their money on? That would be roughly equivalent to four million $US today.

16,000 very rich (those who work for a living from Efate taking a couple of weeks off), spending Cr 25,000 Imperial, of which Cr 12,500 is costs and Cr 12,500 goes into the Heya Economy. In 6 star resorts.

I still think that if it takes 30 days to get there and 30 days to get back, a tourist is going to spend more than a couple of weeks when he finally gets there.

20,000 tourists (once in a life time trip to Heya!), spending Cr 5,000, Cr 2,500 costs, Cr 2,500 into the economy of Heya. In 5 star resorts.

This puts in MCr 450 into Heya's economy (about 5%), brings in MCr 450 in imports from the Subsector (balance of payments neural).

It's about 850 people a week.

And if they stay for three months on the average, it's about 10,000 tourists at any given time. That's a useful number to know. But how did you arrive at those figures?

The B class starport is there to service the idle rich's yachts, and provide for the MCr 450 in imports that services the tourist trade.

That makes perfect sense, but alas, a starport that just provides service, even repairs and annual maintenance, to visiting starships is only a Class C starport. A superior sort of Class C starport, but to qualify for a Class B rating, a starport has to build and sell spaceboats.

(Which is why I've recently come to think that it would be a really, really good idea to retcon what starport classes mean and say that Class B means repairs, and maintenance, and TAS offices, and all the rest of a good starport, but NOT boatyards. Class A would then mean yards, usually shipyards AND boatyards, but if local tech level doesn't allow the building of starships just boatyards.)


Hans

 

[rancke]

Fyi

I came up with a formula and worked out these figures:

72.2% of all tourists on Heya comes from Efate, 9.5% are from Rethe, 6.2% from Feri, 5.5% from Regina, and the remaining 7% from Kinorb, Enope, Menorb, Wochiers, Yres, Roup, alell, Inthe, Yori, Aramanx and from further away. Tourists from the Vargr Extents are fairly rare, but not unusual enough to cause notice.

I doubled the Regina figure to reflect a greater concentration of wealthy people in a subsector capital.


Hans

 

[BytePro]

...
And 50,000 credits is the equivalent of 1,250,000 local credits. Just what do these tourists spend their money on? ...

A beer.

If tourism is highly regulated on the planet (and perhaps monies mostly go to the government?), the buying power of that Cr 50,000 doesn't have to equate to the local market... though not sure that fits the world's government type, perhaps resorts are run by cartels of off-worlders?

...
(Which is why I've recently come to think that it would be a really, really good idea to retcon what starport classes mean and say that Class B means repairs, and maintenance, and TAS offices, and all the rest of a good starport, but NOT boatyards. Class A would then mean yards, usually shipyards AND boatyards, but if local tech level doesn't allow the building of starships just boatyards.)

Great idea! Gives Class A a distinction and makes yards more unique.

Not being overly familiar with the 3I, but seem to recall something about the TL of a starport not necessarily matching the local system's.

 

[aramis]

I remember reading somewhere that tourists generally won't spend more total time travelling than at their destination, unless the travel IS the destination (hikers, cruisers, etc).

Now, my own experience matches pretty well...
I know people who will make a 3 day each way drive to Pensic War, for a 6 day event, but won't drive 3 hours each way for a 6 hour Revel.

I know guys who will drive 12 hours each way for an overnight 20-hour campout event, but most won't drive 6 hours each way for a 12 hour 1-day event.

I've a number of former coworkers/supervisors who will fly the 2 hours each way to spend the evening in Seattle, and will do 4 hours each way to spend the day at Disneyland, but won't spend the 10 each way to spend the weekend in Disney World over a 4 day weekend.

I do know some exceptions. But generally, most people seem to limit recreational travel time to no more than 50% of the total trip.

So, I expect the average non-business one-jump trip to most likely be a 4 week vacation: a week to get there, 2 weeks there, and a week back.

So, for Heya, with it's most likely source of tourists would be Dentus, Yorbund, and Kinorb, with a few from Pandrin, Beck's and Keng's... because anyone else is either a retiree on a once-a-lifetime journey, or going for work. J4+ liners are just so expensive to operate as to be pretty neglible as a tourism base, because it's cheaper, including lost salary, to take the extra 2 weeks off and take 2J2 instead of 1J4. (presuming the MT Cr250/Soc/Mo is also expected salary, and the CGen methodology is not overall population but population subset 'travelling population')... As J4 is where it really cranks up in costs.

Anyone much further than that J3 range is unlikely to be a tourist in the "traditional" sense of being a transient just enjoying the sites. They're far more likely to be more of the non-naturalizing mid term resident: retirees, novellists, students, and repeat minor offense criminals laying low.

 

[rancke]

I do know some exceptions. But generally, most people seem to limit recreational travel time to no more than 50% of the total trip.

There will be exceptions, of course. There always are. But a tourist industry wouldn't be built on the exceptions. If you don't get a regular supply of X tourists, you won't build hotels to house X tourists.

So, I expect the average non-business one-jump trip to most likely be a 4 week vacation: a week to get there, 2 weeks there, and a week back.

Five week vacation. ~9 days to get there, 2½ weeks there, and ~9 days back.

So, for Heya, with it's most likely source of tourists would be Dentus, Yorbund, and Kinorb, with a few from Pandrin, Beck's and Keng's... because anyone else is either a retiree on a once-a-lifetime journey, or going for work.

The problem with basing Heya's tourist industry on its closest neighboring worlds is that there aren't enough people on them. Yorbund, the only source of jump-1 tourists, has 200,000 people. The passage from Dentus and Kinorb is already twice as expensive as from Yorbund, and Dentus has 900,000 people. and Kinorb 7 million.

J4+ liners are just so expensive to operate as to be pretty neglible as a tourism base, because it's cheaper, including lost salary, to take the extra 2 weeks off and take 2J2 instead of 1J4. (presuming the MT Cr250/Soc/Mo is also expected salary, and the CGen methodology is not overall population but population subset 'travelling population')... As J4 is where it really cranks up in costs.

It isn't that much more expensive -- about 25% more -- but here we run into the specific astrography (something I ignored when I worked out my "where are they from" formula). To get from Beck's World or Moughas to Heya, you have to make a jump-1 and a jump-3; two jumps-2 won't work.

Efate to Heya would be mostly three jumps (Efate-Boughene, Boughene-Kinorb, and Kinorb-Heya (2-3-2)), because you need a jump-5 to cut it down to two jumps, and jump-5 is where it gets really expensive.

Anyone much further than that J3 range is unlikely to be a tourist in the "traditional" sense of being a transient just enjoying the sites. They're far more likely to be more of the non-naturalizing mid term resident: retirees, novellists, students, and repeat minor offense criminals laying low.

And that's why I don't think interstellar tourists will have a lot in common with common 21st Century Earth tourists. 19th Century tourists, maybe (I don't know very about tourism before the 20th Century, so I'm not sure).

And that's why I want to explore what it means to be an interstellar tourist. What I know about interstellar tourists is that they plan to return to their home system eventually. Nothing else is certain. I don't think that tourists on Heya are going to be middle class families with the breadwinner on a four week holiday from his job. They're going to be people who can not only afford the starship passage but is either retired or can afford to take four months off from their jobs. People in jobs that allow them to take sabbath years would work, I suppose. Is that only academics?

(Note that even though I'm using Heya as a concrete example, much of what we figure out would be useful for other worlds too.)


Hans

 

[BytePro]

...
Efate to Heya would be mostly three jumps (Efate-Boughene, Boughene-Kinorb, and Kinorb-Heya (2-3-2)), because you need a jump-5 to cut it down to two jumps, and jump-5 is where it gets really expensive. ...

Ah, this is very version specific... CT made a big deal (book 2) about there being no difference in price, regardless of the jump distance.

Not that this was such a good concept, given the differences in fuel, initial investment (and thus higher maintenance by the game mechanics), and reduced commerce capacity of higher J ships, especially at J-5. But, even if your version of Traveller has different pricing 'standards' to adjust for these issues, no reason they have to hold true for all cases, especially the special case of a tourist world.

Such ships would probably require subsidies for purchase and operation... which, actually, wouldn't be all that unrealistic (ferries and trains are commonly government subsidized).

This could be your answer to where a lot of that tourist money goes.

...
And that's why I want to explore what it means to be an interstellar tourist ...

Me too! When's the next ship leave?

Yeah, multi-jump tourist trips would be uncommon.

One could make exceptions for rich planets or agricultural ones where the population might have lots of vacation time due to work laws or growth seasons - or orbits that cause extremes in planet environs, such that most of the population regularly 'migrates' along a tourist route...

 

[E.D.Quibell]

What's the difference between the money that goes into the Heyan economy and the money that doesn't? And where does that end up?

Back in the Systems where you need to buy all the high tech stuff/personel from. They are going to want a high tech doctor with up to the minute equipment, and grav vehicles, and computers etc. Heya will have to import all that. That's the 50% costs not going into the Heyain economy.

And 50,000 credits is the equivalent of 1,250,000 local credits. Just what do these tourists spend their money on? That would be roughly equivalent to four million $US today.

The idle rich will likley come with an enterage. So you will have a number of people to accomodate, and feed, and entertain for three months. Plus there won't be any robots. It will be a completly personal service. Every thing done by hand. It's all part of the Heya experaince! (i.e. loads of staff 24/7).

I still think that if it takes 30 days to get there and 30 days to get back, a tourist is going to spend more than a couple of weeks when he finally gets there.

Not if they have to work for their money. A month on a cruise liner lapping up the luxuary. A week or two seeing the sights and another month in luxuary comming back is about the most you would want to be away form you corporate dealings.

And if they stay for three months on the average, it's about 10,000 tourists at any given time. That's a useful number to know. But how did you arrive at those figures?

I can only see the idle rich staying for 3 months. I would think it would be a couple of weeks for everyone else.

The numbers? Idle rich 1% of 1% of 1% for the number who would make the trip to Heya. The double that for the really rich. The Cr 50,000 was a WEG to make the % of the Heyan economy significant for tourisum.

That makes perfect sense, but alas, a starport that just provides service, even repairs and annual maintenance, to visiting starships is only a Class C starport. A superior sort of Class C starport, but to qualify for a Class B rating, a starport has to build and sell spaceboats.

Not if they have their anual maintenance done at the port while there owners are sunning themselves. For that you need a B class startport. You don't need to build or sell spaceboats to have a B class rating, just the cabability to do so if you wished. I would expect that Heya's is all about the maintence.

(Which is why I've recently come to think that it would be a really, really good idea to retcon what starport classes mean and say that Class B means repairs, and maintenance, and TAS offices, and all the rest of a good starport, but NOT boatyards. Class A would then mean yards, usually shipyards AND boatyards, but if local tech level doesn't allow the building of starships just boatyards.)

Hans

You need the boat yards to do the anual maintenance. You don't need to build anything in them.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Anyone much further than that J3 range is unlikely to be a tourist in the "traditional" sense of being a transient just enjoying the sites.

Yup, I think we've all come to that conculsion.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[rancke]

Ah, this is very version specific... CT made a big deal (book 2) about there being no difference in price, regardless of the jump distance.

CT also mentions the existence of jump-3 and jump-4 passenger liners. Those are mutually contradictory with prices fixed at the canonical levels. If prices really are fixed like that, you won't have jump-3+ passenger service. If you have jump-3+ passenger service, prices won't be fixed (at least not at the canonical levels). And since there's a way to explain away the fixed prices (it's a game artifact), I chose to go with the version that makes economic sense.

Not that this was such a good concept, given the differences in fuel, initial investment (and thus higher maintenance by the game mechanics), and reduced commerce capacity of higher J ships, especially at J-5.

To be fair, there is no mention of jump-5 and jump-6 passenger service, although there is one menton of jump-5 ships (couriers) in civilian hands (Oberlindes).

But, even if your version of Traveller has different pricing 'standards' to adjust for these issues, no reason they have to hold true for all cases, especially the special case of a tourist world.

Someone has to pay the cost of operating the ships, and ultimately it's going to be the tourists. If the Heyan authorities subsidizes tourist traffic, the tourists will spend more than the subsidy when they get to Heya.

Yeah, multi-jump tourist trips would be uncommon.

Not nessessarily. But they won't be made by lower- or middle-class working stiffs on their annual vacation.

One could make exceptions for rich planets or agricultural ones where the population might have lots of vacation time due to work laws or growth seasons - or orbits that cause extremes in planet environs, such that most of the population regularly 'migrates' along a tourist route...

Alell might have some of those kind of tourists. Only one jump from Efate, so if you can afford the trip at all, you can probably arrange for a six-week vacation from your work.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Not if they have their anual maintenance done at the port while there owners are sunning themselves.

Why would a yacht owner chose to have his annual maintenance done in a place where the cost is increased by the need to import parts and personnel?

For that you need a B class startport. You don't need to build or sell spaceboats to have a B class rating, just the cabability to do so if you wished. I would expect that Heya's is all about the maintence.

"Type B - Good Quality Installation. Refined fuel is available, as is annual maintenance overhaul. A shipyard capable of building non-starships is present. [...]"

To get a Class B starport rating, a starport has to offer all the listed services.

You need the boat yards to do the anual maintenance. You don't need to build anything in them.

Why would you need a fully capable boatyard to do annual maintenance? Annual maintenance is about tuning up the drives and checking that everything works, not about replacing hull plates and installing replacement drives.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

Yup, I think we've all come to that conculsion.

Best regards,

Ewan

A Traveller.

(Under the Sheltering Sky reference)

 

[aramis]

I'm starting to think that the canonical reference was simply a bogus "this would be cool" decision without looking at the astrography.

Looking at the costs per jump, and ignoring the fixed rate as being J1 only...

Let's see... Potential direct runs.
J1: Yorbund (C7C6503-7)
J2: Kinorb (A663659-8), Dentus (C979500-A), Corfu (X895674-8 Red)
J3: Beck's World (D88349D-4), Pandrin (B260675-B), Ghisaersae (C758646-7), Ksunekso (B525575-A), Lablon (E646589-A), Keng (E2718CA-3)
J4: Shionthy (X000742-8 Red), Moughas (CA5A588-B), Enope (C411988-6), Ueghrrozue (A6A47BA-A Vargr), Roukhagzvaengo (E526899-7 Vargr), Rruthaekuksu (D231210-6)

Ruling out D or E ports and Red Zones, that changes to:
J1: Yorbund (C7C6503-7)
J2: Kinorb (A663659-8), Dentus (C979500-A),
J3: Pandrin (B260675-B), Ghisaersae (C758646-7), Ksunekso (B525575-A)
J4: Moughas (CA5A588-B), Enope (C411988-6), Ueghrrozue (A6A47BA-A Vargr)

Let's see... There is a very real possibility of Ueghrrozue having a J4 link It's 10's of millions, so could support a few dozen at a time. Maybe a singular J4 ship making regular runs... using a normal 2-week schedule, that means a 6 week and 2 day trip.
It also means 4 weeks dirtside on Heya... Using the "broken" MT rates, a soc 15 character spends just shy of KCr4/month...so... CrImp150 while down, plus around KCrImp60 or so for passage (using the numbers I generated from MGT's design and op costs)... vs the AA=0.5, of spending CrImp2813 for the same 6 weeks at home... and with CrImp 8K per annum per capita, that's average CrUegh1230/mo, for Soc 5 being the average... but likely not the median. (Median US income is well under the average...)


Doing some comparison... if a local world averages CrL500 in naval tax (TCS), and military spending averages 3%GDP , Army gets 40%, and Imperium gets 30%, (Striker) that means CrL500=0.03*0.4*GDP. GDPPC (Annual) is thus averaging 500/(0.03*0.4)=41667 per capita per year, or Cr3205 per month. Since the 40/40/30 LocalArmy/LocalNavy/Imperial split appears elsewhere (T4 IIRC), the CrLocal value appears elsewhere as well...

This implies the average person pays Cr1250 in military tax.

Now, on earth, modern, tax income averages about 34% GDP. Let's say 30% for simplicity. (Note, typical Earth is about 10% of tax receipts on the military,but ranging from 0 to 30%... and Tax receipts as % GDP runs up to about 50%) So the average person pays some CrL12,500 per annum of that CrL41667, leaving CrL29167 or so, dividing by 13 months, gives CrL2243. Easily enough to support average Soc 7 on lifestyle, which in MT includes clothing, food, housing, and incidentals... In fact, it can support Soc 9...
I think I figured out how DGP came up with that number... it's a car payment, plus TCS, plus real world Tax/GDP relationships as mirrored in Striker. Cr500 per month on a vehicle plus fuel and maintenance sounds about right, too. Half that's the mortgage on it; rest is fuel and maintenance. 5 year vehicle loan. There's your CrL250/Soc, Hans.