Tourists on Heya

[Enoki]

You should also note even with the better route you have some issues with the systems you go through:

Yorbund and Dentus are essentially unoccupied and lawless. High risk of piracy or other criminal issues popping up.

Kinorb, Enope, and Moughas all have high law levels and two of the three are officious bureaucracies.

Ueghrrozue is the most problematic. It has an unpopular dictator and extreme law level. It is a virtual certainty that the ship, crew and, passengers would be hassled beyond belief. I wouldn't rule out a nitpicking vessel search, arrests for anyone with anything illegal, strip searches of some passengers and crew, being held at gun point while being searched, bribes being required and, in general just any reason you could think of to avoid this place.

 

[aramis]

You should also note even with the better route you have some issues with the systems you go through:

Yorbund and Dentus are essentially unoccupied and lawless. High risk of piracy or other criminal issues popping up.

Kinorb, Enope, and Moughas all have high law levels and two of the three are officious bureaucracies.

Ueghrrozue is the most problematic. It has an unpopular dictator and extreme law level. It is a virtual certainty that the ship, crew and, passengers would be hassled beyond belief. I wouldn't rule out a nitpicking vessel search, arrests for anyone with anything illegal, strip searches of some passengers and crew, being held at gun point while being searched, bribes being required and, in general just any reason you could think of to avoid this place.

I suspect it's ruling cadre (for a dictator always has a cadre of loyal 'friends') are filthy stinking rich, and the average local lives at soc 3 or less... and there is little to no middle class. "Estates" on the much cheaper Heya might be a way of ensure the families are safe from reprisals by the highly oppressed populace. And a reward for the loyalists.

It could be a VERY lucrative form of tourism.

 

[rancke]

I'm starting to think that the canonical reference was simply a bogus "this would be cool" decision without looking at the astrography.

I think that's a pretty likely assumption.

J1: Yorbund (C7C6503-7)
J2: Kinorb (A663659-8), Dentus (C979500-A),
J3: Pandrin (B260675-B), Ghisaersae (C758646-7), Ksunekso (B525575-A)
J4: Moughas (CA5A588-B), Enope (C411988-6), Ueghrrozue (A6A47BA-A Vargr)

The systems in Gvurrdon 2339 and 2340 that you call Ueghrrozue and Ghisaersae were named Uthith and Balent on the FFW. Are your names from MGT:Vargr?

Anyway, what are the population multipliers for the various Vargr worlds?

Let's see... There is a very real possibility of Ueghrrozue having a J4 link.

Especially since 2J2 isn't an option.

Using the "broken" MT rates, a soc 15 character spends just shy of KCr4/month...

A minimum of Cr3750. He can easily spend a lot more than that. And how many Imperial dukes or close family of Imperial dukes would be visiting Heya?

If a local world averages CrL500 in naval tax (TCS), and military spending averages 3%GDP , Army gets 40%, and Imperium gets 30%, (Striker) that means CrL500=0.03*0.4*GDP.

TCS and Striker deal with different situations and simplify military taxes in different ways. TCS deals with pocket empires surrounded by other unfriendly pocket empires and averages the naval budget to Cr500 per inhabitant regardless of tech level and trade classifications (but modified by government type and wartime/peacetime). Striker deals with worlds where interstellar tensions are much lower and calculates taxes as a percentage of GWP, which depends on tech level and trade classifications (but government classifications are ignored). The average may be 3%, but the figure ranges from 1% "where little conflict has been experienced for extended periods of time" to 15% "where the state of international tension is high".

For a TL11 world in TCS (with no relevant trade classifications), Cr500 represents 3.6% of the GWP. If that is the navy's share, the total military budget would be 6% (60% to the navy, 40% to the army).

GDPPC (Annual) is thus averaging 500/(0.03*0.4)=41667 per capita per year, or Cr3205 per month.

Except that the GWP of the most productive world possible (a rich, agricultural TL15 world) is Cr42,240, so an average of Cr41,667 is quite impossible to achieve.

Since the 40/40/30 LocalArmy/LocalNavy/Imperial split appears elsewhere (T4 IIRC), the CrLocal value appears elsewhere as well...

First the Imperium gets 30%. Then the planetary forces split the remaining 70% 60/40. So the Local Army/Local Navy/Imperial split would be 28/42/30.



Hans

 

[aramis]

I think that's a pretty likely assumption.


The systems in Gvurrdon 2339 and 2340 that you call Ueghrrozue and Ghisaersae were named Uthith and Balent on the FFW. Are your names from MGT:Vargr?

Anyway, what are the population multipliers for the various Vargr worlds?


Especially since 2J2 isn't an option.


A minimum of Cr3750. He can easily spend a lot more than that. And how many Imperial dukes or close family of Imperial dukes would be visiting Heya?


TCS and Striker deal with different situations and simplify military taxes in different ways. TCS deals with pocket empires surrounded by other unfriendly pocket empires and averages the naval budget to Cr500 per inhabitant regardless of tech level and trade classifications (but modified by government type and wartime/peacetime). Striker deals with worlds where interstellar tensions are much lower and calculates taxes as a percentage of GWP, which depends on tech level and trade classifications (but government classifications are ignored). The average may be 3%, but the figure ranges from 1% "where little conflict has been experienced for extended periods of time" to 15% "where the state of international tension is high".

For a TL11 world in TCS (with no relevant trade classifications), Cr500 represents 3.6% of the GWP. If that is the navy's share, the total military budget would be 6% (60% to the navy, 40% to the army).


Except that the GWP of the most productive world possible (a rich, agricultural TL15 world) is Cr42,240, so an average of Cr41,667 is quite impossible to achieve.


Hans

The GWP table was explicitly decanonized by MWM at one point. During T20 we (the playtesters) were told so. TCS' methodology was ALSO explicitly decanonized. The two are incompatible... but... they were both in CT overall when DGP built MT for GDW.

I will note also, tho', that the "average imperial citizen" is the average citizen of the Population A worlds, skewed significantly by the twice as many at 1/10th the population, and thrice as many at 1/100th... (ignoring, for the moment, the population increase massaging for several sectors...) those pop A worlds comprise, at least 70% of the Imperial Population...

I took the names and UWP's off Travellermap.com. Which, BTW is hard to use on a Nintendo DSXL... The mobile mode works, but is awkward to navigate, and doesn't have all the same data as the main map can do. In other words, I don't know the pop multipliers, and the name changes are not my fault!

 

[rancke]

The GWP table was explicitly decanonized by MWM at one point. During T20 we (the playtesters) were told so. TCS' methodology was ALSO explicitly decanonized. The two are incompatible... but... they were both in CT overall when DGP built MT for GDW.

The 3% of GWP and the Army/Navy/Imperial split came from Striker and the Cr500 from TCS.The canon that remains is mutually incompatible (the living expenses from CT does not fit with MT's Cr250/SL). We can pick and choose as we like, but if we pick and choose different bits, we're not talking about the same situation.

One could do a lot worse than define a world's per capita GWP as 10,000 local credits (as Pocket Empires does). That fits pretty well with the living expenses from CT. All one would have to drop is one table from Striker and the MT living expenses rule. Everything else will fit together (with a little creative interpretation of the Cr500/citizen naval budget from TCS). It also means that local credits are worth the same (when buying local goods) regardless of which world you're on.

I took the names and UWP's off Travellermap.com. Which, BTW is hard to use on a Nintendo DSXL... The mobile mode works, but is awkward to navigate, and doesn't have all the same data as the main map can do. In other words, I don't know the pop multipliers, and the name changes are not my fault!

Who's blaming you? I just wanted to know if the name changes were canonical.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Ueghrrozue is the most problematic. It has an unpopular dictator and extreme law level. It is a virtual certainty that the ship, crew and, passengers would be hassled beyond belief. I wouldn't rule out a nitpicking vessel search, arrests for anyone with anything illegal, strip searches of some passengers and crew, being held at gun point while being searched, bribes being required and, in general just any reason you could think of to avoid this place.

That's what the game rules imply happen to rootless adventurers who visit worlds with high law levels. What happen to people who are rich enough to pay for a tourist trip four parsecs away and well enough liked and trusted by the government to be permitted to visit a neighboring interstellar state is presumably something else entirely.


Hans

 

[E.D.Quibell]

The systems in Gvurrdon 2339 and 2340 that you call Ueghrrozue and Ghisaersae were named Uthith and Balent on the FFW. Are your names from MGT:Vargr?

Anyway, what are the population multipliers for the various Vargr worlds?

2339 is 9
2340 is 7

according to AM3.

MgT AM2 has them as Ueghrrozue and Ghisaersae.

But as Vargr are such a dynamic bunch ... what's in a name?

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[rancke]

2339 is 9
2340 is 7

Thank you.

MgT AM2 has them as Ueghrrozue and Ghisaersae.

I guess that's one playtest comment that got ignored.

But as Vargr are such a dynamic bunch ... what's in a name?

Who cares what the local Vargr call them? It's what the Imperium calls them that counts (for Imperial library data at least).

But if MGT:Vargr calls them Ueghrrozue and Ghisaersae I guess that's what they're called. It's a rather pointless retcon, but OTOH it's a totally innocuous one too.


Hans

 

[Peter Schutze]

>Yeah, multi-jump tourist trips would be uncommon.

Its quite likely that each individual taking more than one multi-jump trip per lifetime is unlikely but why would doing the trip itself be uncommon ?

How many college age people these days do the often several months long backpacker trails before settling into a proper life of wage slavery

>One could make exceptions for rich planets or agricultural ones where the population might have lots of vacation time due to work laws or growth seasons

or any average wealth world with a non shirtsleeves environment where travelling offworld for the coming of age trip .... or "sowing your oats" without shame back home etc etc is important

20-something middle class Aussies until the 1960s made the 4-6 week *each way* boat trip / pilgrimage holiday over to England where many stayed for several months on a "working holiday"

 

[aramis]

>Yeah, multi-jump tourist trips would be uncommon.

Its quite likely that each individual taking more than one multi-jump trip per lifetime is unlikely but why would doing the trip itself be uncommon ?

How many college age people these days do the often several months long backpacker trails before settling into a proper life of wage slavery

Not many, really, at least in North America. Maybe more in Europe, but it has a social stigma in the US, where the so-called "protestant work ethic" holds strong sway. I don't personally know anyone who did so who isn't from Europe.

I really think that the proportion of people going off world will shrink as the number of people on world grows, and interstellar tourism is a thing of the very rich.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Not many, really, at least in North America. Maybe more in Europe, but it has a social stigma in the US, where the so-called "protestant work ethic" holds strong sway. I don't personally know anyone who did so who isn't from Europe.

I really think that the proportion of people going off world will shrink as the number of people on world grows, and interstellar tourism is a thing of the very rich.

You might wish to diferentiate between the US and Canada in that statement Will.

The protestant work ethic, capitalist property ownership, common law, education and religious tollarance are fundermentaly the roots of British sociaty and were exported to the colonies.

However New Zealand, Australian, UK and Canadian youth (and also the Dutch to be fair), have a thendancy to wish to travel. Taking a year or more to go backpacking around the world, or to go on working holidays, pretty much anywhere is not at all unusual and is generally looked on favourably by employers.

In fact I have heard, but can't back up with any facts, that there are more New Zealanders between the ages of 18 and 25 outside New Zealand than in. Kiwis love to travel. But anywhere you go you will bump into Ozzies, Canucks and Brits as well.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[Peter Schutze]

yep I see the equivalent of a lot of non-us work/life ethic colonials working passage as "stewards" on at least a few jumps of their 3-6 month trip

this young adult backpacker phenomenon is not only a british decended colonials thing .... the german term is "wander(ing) year" and it is not unusual in any of the germanic related nations eg dutch, denmark, austria and scandanavians as well.

in other european countries eg greece and spain it seems to be confined to a higher income bracket and more commonly male where going somewhere else to live for a while is more the focus rather than "seeing the world"

I would personally find it quite feasible for Heya's service/tourist economy to be heavily based on the predictable tides of young people arriving with heya being a main / crossroads point along the baackpacker "trail"

 

[DonM]

The systems in Gvurrdon 2339 and 2340 that you call Ueghrrozue and Ghisaersae were named Uthith and Balent on the FFW. Are your names from MGT:Vargr?

Marc told me that those locations on the FFW weren't intended to be worlds, so I went back to the guy who did all the hard work on Gvurrdon, Roger Malmstein, for his take, and that's what I turned over to Mongoose for the basis of their material.

Which reminds me that I need to keep working to get travellermap.com updated with all the other sectors.

 

[rancke]

Marc told me that those locations on the FFW weren't intended to be worlds, so I went back to the guy who did all the hard work on Gvurrdon, Roger Malmstein, for his take, and that's what I turned over to Mongoose for the basis of their material.

Sounds like Marc Miller's memory played a trick on him. Uthith, Gireel, and Balent are clearly marked as worlds (with their own little world boxes) on the FFW map. They're also marked (but not named) on the map of Gvurrdon in AM3:Vargr (which is presumably where Roger Malmstein got them from originally).

It's a great pity he didn't know about FFW, because the two Vargr fleets that invaded the Imperium is named after Uthith and Gireel (I've always assumed they were name after the worlds where they assembled). I'm pretty sure I mentioned it to the author in my playtest comments, but I guess that's water under the bridge.

Unless... Maybe Uthith, Gireel, and Balent are the Imperial names and those other names are the local names?


Hans

 

[DonM]

No, they are Vargr corsair band names. Not worlds names. They got worlds on the FFW map to represent starting positions.

 

[rancke]

No, they are Vargr corsair band names. Not worlds names. They got worlds on the FFW map to represent starting positions.

Those starting positions have starports capable of constructing spaceboats (Gireel) and starships (Uthith), tech levels, water fuel available, and gas giants. They also have UWPs in the Gvurrdon UWP listing. Clearly there are worlds in those hexes, so why would the world boxes not represent the worlds in those hexes? And why should the names of the worlds in those hexes not be used? Every other world on the map lists the world name. Besides, if they are Vargr corsair band names rather than world names, where's the Balent Fleet? And the fourth world, Pandrin, IS named. Also, the Uthith Fleet and the Gireel Fleet are not corsair bands. They're fleets. Vargr corsair bands are small. None of them are big enough to go toe to toe with an Imperial CruRon, much less an entire Imperial fleet. In fact, the Kforuzeng, the biggest corsair band in the vicinity isn't big enough to stand up to ONE cruiser (Though they might give a light cruiser a run for its money). They only explanation that makes sense is that they're each a collection of corsair bands (most likely with some regular squadrons from the 40th Squadron to serve as a cadre).


Hans

 

[DonM]

I'm just saying you have to be careful interpreting everything from FFW. It's like interpreting everything from Imperium, or Dark Nebula.

Still, I wish they had generic-ed those three together at some point. But then, as much as it might have answered questions, think how all of us might have interpreted that?

And (if I were a Zhodani Admiral or High Councillor) I would have some Zhodani presence somewhere in those Vargr "fleets", if just to give me some accurate reporting.

 

[McPerth]

Vargr corsair bands are small. None of them are big enough to go toe to toe with an Imperial CruRon, much less an entire Imperial fleet. In fact, the Kforuzeng, the biggest corsair band in the vicinity isn't big enough to stand up to ONE cruiser (Though they might give a light cruiser a run for its money).

I'm affraid MT history seems to disagrees with you in this point...(ask people in Corridor or Lishun).

About myself, I do agree with you more than with MT oficial history, but I'm affraid my oppinion is not canon, while OTU time line is. Even so, I'd like someone to explain me how did Vargr fight even a single Imperial Crudron (or many HT reserve ones, like those in Gemid) with the ships shown in Rebellion as more or less representative of theirs'.

 

[rancke]

I'm affraid MT history seems to disagrees with you in this point...(ask people in Corridor or Lishun).

True enough, alas. In their desire to pile on the number of different factions in the Rebellion, GDW inflated the threats of the Vargr and the Aslans to a point that neither previously published information nor common sense could support. If you look at some of the specific instances of worlds overrun by Vargr corsairs that were published later, you'll see that many of them weren't actually lost to Vargr corsairs at all but to various other circumstances.

About myself, I do agree with you more than with MT oficial history, but I'm afraid my oppinion is not canon, while OTU time line is. Even so, I'd like someone to explain me how did Vargr fight even a single Imperial Crudron (or many HT reserve ones, like those in Gemid) with the ships shown in Rebellion as more or less representative of theirs'.

A Vargr state (of sufficient size) would be able to muster the strength to fight an Imperial fleet. That's the reason I suggest that the cores of the two Vargr fleets are several CruRons and BatRons from the Elkhe Ksafi (I'm deliberately ignoring the fact that the canonical UWPs don't give them the population to field a squadron of escorts, let alone cruisers or battleships).

The thing is, given the propensity Vargr have for seizing opportunities to set up for themselves, what Vargr ruler would be inclined to pay for a fleet and then give it to an admiral and send him to invade a place many parsecs away? It would be much easier just to pour the money into a convenient chasm.

Sure, I can come up with scenarios where it could happen (such as diplomatic efforts from the Zhodani), but not enough to explain the "corsair" invasions of the Rebellion.


Hans

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Sure, I can come up with scenarios where it could happen (such as diplomatic efforts from the Zhodani), but not enough to explain the "corsair" invasions of the Rebellion.


Hans

Just Vargr or Imperial propogander.

It's more likely that some empire(s) sent fleet elements to see what they could get away with, and those elements brock away from their repective empires and annexed a couple of corsair bands to set themselves up independantly.

Best regards,

Ewan