The more they over think the plumbing.....

[kilemall]

Whip, I think you need to read more carefully and be less enthralled with your perspective.

I said, many times, that a few items here and there out of whack is normal and to be expected.

But if it's large enough to incite large scale economic activity that makes more complex or capable manufacture and/or trade possible, then the TL goes up.

Tool acquisition/making/trading with the economic activity they engender and making the resources available to fund further development interact to make a populace able to support and increase TL.

The large bulge of common use, 80-90% as per Aramis is good enough for working definition for me.

But as even you pointed out, there will be things they cannot make no matter what.

I happen to think that a TL C piece of custom HG starship engineering at TL9 would be one of them.

An ISO type standard such as typified by the LBB2 A-B-C drives would be an exception, built to the lowest common standard possible, and a necessity of maintaining a functioning interstellar transport base.

Now if you are so deeply in love with your whole retro tech thing, well from what I read between the lines the T5 maker rules should suit you to a tee, plenty of 'making stuff several TLs ahead of standard' possible.

Oh, and I come from a multi-generational engineering/manufacturing family, so I'm not terribly impressed by your flippant off the cuff assessments predicated on narrow readings of forum responses. To determine truth, ask questions, not win the Internet commentary.

 

[kilemall]

Similarly, we were recently informed that a ham sandwich costs $1500 and six months to make from scratch yourself.

Whut?

 

[aramis]

Whut?

Counts raising, slaughtering, and curing the pig, raising the grain, milling the flour, raising the chickens to get the eggs to make the mayonaise.... etc.

 

[kilemall]

I tried out that phrase years ago and found in lacking. Monkey-see, Monkey-do presupposes both monkeys have the same capabilities and tools. That not the case here.

Literalism is an ugly disease. I have it too, but not quite that badly I think.

Metaphors. Sayings. They are a thing.

Wait a minute... Aren't you guy who wrote "I want a constant 'Toto we aren't in Kansas anymore' 'no really you ARE in space and it HURTS' sense of wonder and surprise at the 'same but different' feel to it all."?

So, TL 1 soldiers carrying blackpowder, rifled, firearms, mule-pulled passenger trolleys running scheduled routes in that TL 1 world's capital, a TL 1 local liquor distilling industry producing the world's only export, and TL 1 peasants owning crystal radio sets so they can receive weather reports from the starport is just a bit of "local flash"?

Or is it more plausible that those soldiers shoulder a sarissa in a phalanx, that city's size is limited by the distance a man can walk in a few hours, distilling amounts to setting out wine in the winter to skim off the ice, and those peasants squint their eyes to the west to tell the weather from cloud signs and sunsets while a starship sets down at a starport staffed by Imperial employees every other week or so?

Now this response involves some discussion, although I expect not entirely in directions you intended.

Number 1, if they have gunpowder and are organized enough to run horse trolleys and get weather reports by crystal radio, then they aren't staying TL1 for long. They will be able to gather more food, repel lower tech opposition then themselves, have more effective time use due to easier transport, lose less population and protect themselves better from the weather, and in general are on a fast track to not be TL1 for very long.

Probably more importantly they have individuals with the drive to make those things happen and the combination of minerals, animals and spare resources to create the higher tech items.

The Mayans didn't start making guns and sailing ships just by laying eyes on the conquistadors. It takes will, resources, time and hard-won expertise, not just an idea.

Number 2, depending on the nature and thoroughness/attitude of the interstellar polity, there is a fair chance a TL1 world is going to be Red Zone quarantined, precisely to avoid such cultural/tech contamination and/or be overrun by the Big Bad Universe. A better test case for your retro tech might be the starport B TL5 example.

Number 3, the item I really wanted to address is the entertainment parts- everything else is intellectual argument fodder.

Yes I do actually intend to mix tech and High Weirdness.

My milieu is the Oort Cloud, a vast area of distant ice and frontier refueling stations, where the people too strange, desperate or dangerous to live in civilized society eke out a harsh life amongst the frozen mountains.

Out there is a lack of heavy metals and conventional manufacturing capability, and so there are going to be TL5 analog computers installed on TL8 carved iceships powered by the hottest commodity Out There, L-Hyd fusion reactors and refiners.

There will be biotech too dangerous and illegal to be located closer in, vast synthetic drug factories, bizarre cults, and secret corporate/national bases.

The tech mixes will be wild and strange, precisely to set it off from the inner planet uniform tech sameness back at Sol and Alpha Centuari.

So I certainly do intend to mine 'outside the TL box' for effect, flavor and content.

A big important aspect of doing this is letting the setting and it's economics define the TL tools created for it's unique enviornment, rather then imposing a top-down determination.

It's like letting a character in a novel or film have his voice- the environment and it's mix of how things work IS a major character.

As such, I'm not terribly concerned what TL the TC scouts assign the Cloud, whatever it is will be wrong.

If I cared enough about a planet to give it the same treatment, I would expect the world and it's denizens to speak to me about what that world is and how the people there live on it, and I would expect to generate some unique TL things which are mismatches to the generic TL tables.

However, for situations where the world is not The Thing, the TL definition can serve well enough for the broad strokes of what players can typically expect to encounter there without getting into minutiae of the differences.

What drives the story and the adventure is what counts. Sometimes it's a rich vein, sometimes it's just a wallpaper background to another type of story.

 

[kilemall]

Counts raising, slaughtering, and curing the pig, raising the grain, milling the flour, raising the chickens to get the eggs to make the mayonaise.... etc.

Oh no, I can't help myself, cannot resist urge to.....

Okay, sure if you are pricing the sandwich as singular prototype.

Even a lot more for the first vat-grown one.

Except for the part where you have that pig all to yourself, and that's a LOT of ham sandwich, the price per sandwich would drop greatly.

Depending on how much ham per sandwich you use, have to think you are going to get at least 100 sandwiches out of that hog, dropping it down to $15 per sandwich at least.

And then, vast amounts of bacon. Solid porcine gold.

Sorry, can't help myself. The analysis and quantification never stops.

 

[aramis]

FYI, Kilemall, Bill (whipsnade) does usually understand idiom. He's pointing out that the idiom was stretch too far, and doesn't apply in the case you made.

which I tend to agree with him on.

But, as another FYI, a bunch of TL1-2 nomads in the steppes of Mongolia and the valleys of Afghanistan were able to copy a TL6 rifle (the AK47) and the TL6 pistol (Tokarev) reliably well enough to make firable clones thereof using only sheet-metal and hand tools.. Some even hand scribed the maker's marks and serial numbers, not being certain if they were needed invocations or just expected decorations... I've fired an afghan-made AK 47 and a Russian made 1. The Afghan was actually a smoother firing weapon... albeit a bit harder recoil. Not very accurate (almost unrifled), but smoother...

 

[kilemall]

FYI, Kilemall, Bill (whipsnade) does usually understand idiom. He's pointing out that the idiom was stretch too far, and doesn't apply in the case you made.

which I tend to agree with him on.

Not quite sure what your critique is, since he and I went back and forth on a lot of points.

But, as another FYI, a bunch of TL1-2 nomads in the steppes of Mongolia and the valleys of Afghanistan were able to copy a TL6 rifle (the AK47) and the TL6 pistol (Tokarev) reliably well enough to make firable clones thereof using only sheet-metal and hand tools.. Some even hand scribed the maker's marks and serial numbers, not being certain if they were needed invocations or just expected decorations... I've fired an afghan-made AK 47 and a Russian made 1. The Afghan was actually a smoother firing weapon... albeit a bit harder recoil. Not very accurate (almost unrifled), but smoother...

That example however feeds into my expertise and economics argument.

The Afghans have been copying invader guns since the British/Russian Great Game, they have been effective gunsmiths for 150+ years. I would expect to hear that they have multigenerational gunsmith families, if not renowned tribes for the same.

However, it is one set of items that has not translated into higher TL, again because they do not have either the manufacturing/ag base and time, possibly drive to 'increase their TL', or sufficiently valuable trade to buy their way up the common in use TL ladder.

Far as that is concerned, every nose of the Japanese bullet train is hand hammered, and it's judged more economical to do that way rather then a full blown manufacturing setup, even though it is practically down to maybe 3-10 people that can do it and hearkens back to much lower TL expertise.

 

[aramis]

Not quite sure what your critique is, since he and I went back and forth on a lot of points.



That example however feeds into my expertise and economics argument.

The Afghans have been copying invader guns since the British/Russian Great Game, they have been effective gunsmiths for 150+ years. I would expect to hear that they have multigenerational gunsmith families, if not renowned tribes for the same.

However, it is one set of items that has not translated into higher TL, again because they do not have either the manufacturing/ag base and time, possibly drive to 'increase their TL', or sufficiently valuable trade to buy their way up the common in use TL ladder.

What they lack is the acceptance of industrialization. They're some of the worlds' best gunsmiths, if you want one-offs. But they have cultural issues that present impediments to monkey-see/monkey-do with construction. And especially firearms as a mass market factory product.

Nearly 1/5 of the world's people live in a TL 3-4 or so situation as far as local manufacture... due to social and religious values, factories are considered evil, and so, even when they accept that economies of scale are viable, they aren't looking to increase the output per man, because that devalues the man. There's a leather factory in Morocco - everything is done large scale, but still done by hand. Same output per year as one in Washington... that's 1/4 the size, and staffed by 6 guys... and unlike the one in morocco, the Washington one is operating well below peak output due to a lack of both customers and hides; increased production would not benefit them.

 

[Condottiere]

The Philippines aren't too far behind in ad hoc gunsmithing, but it demonstrates local supply fulfilling a local need, since in Afica, the place is overflowing with Ay Kay Forty Sevens, in the absence of policing.

 

[aramis]

The Philippines aren't too far behind in ad hoc gunsmithing, but it demonstrates local supply fulfilling a local need, since in Afica, the place is overflowing with Ay Kay Forty Sevens, in the absence of policing.

The Philippines are firmly up into the TL6 range... Industrial factories with production lines producing for local needs... with limited automation and high standardization.

 

[welsh]

Nearly 1/5 of the world's people live in a TL 3-4 or so situation as far as local manufacture...

Which of course we might expect on any world. There will be high-tech centers and there will be areas where people simply use that high technology ... and there will be other places where there is very little high tech at all, whether "high tech" is a fusion plant, a smartphone, or a printing press.

Instead of asking what TL we might apply to Khyber Pass gunsmiths, I think a better question is, what TL is Earth today, really? If the TL is the prevalent level of technology, I think the Scouts would give Earth a lower TL than we might imagine.

To me, TL is simply what you might expect to find when you step away from the starport. What variations exist locally, what can be manufactured, what can be repaired, and so on is going to vary depending on population, etc., and is up to the GM. It's a flexible thing, and all the rest is just overthinking the rules.

 

[atpollard]

Instead of asking what TL we might apply to Khyber Pass gunsmiths, I think a better question is, what TL is Earth today, really? If the TL is the prevalent level of technology, I think the Scouts would give Earth a lower TL than we might imagine.

Good question.
Earth = TL 6-7.

It would be pretty hard to find a place without any automobiles (so TL 5+ as an absolute minimum) and I would imagine it hard to find some place that you can't fly to or that has no TV service in the hotel. (TL 6+)

Beyond that, consumer electronics & cell phones are everywhere (USA, Caribbean, Central America). Places without these things would tend to be a special destination, not somewhere a starship is likely to just happen to land. Using your Afghanistan, what TL is the capital? The scout ship will probably not land on a random mountain to survey the population.

 

[infojunky]

As this conversation is taking place on a CT board, might I point out that y'all are talking about two separate issues if one goes back to the 77' edition....

In that Tech level is a Items technical sophistication

And Technical Index is what a Planet has. I.e. infrastructure.

Technological Index portion was dropped in later editions for some reason.

 

[aramis]

As this conversation is taking place on a CT board, might I point out that y'all are talking about two separate issues if one goes back to the 77' edition....

In that Tech level is a Items technical sophistication

And Technical Index is what a Planet has. I.e. infrastructure.

Technological Index portion was dropped in later editions for some reason.

Let's see.. the CT 2.1 (TTB) reads:

The degree of technological expertise, and thus the capabilities of local industry,① depends greatly on the basic characteristics of a world. This technological index is generated based on a one die throw, modified by DMs dependent on planetary characteristics.

Consult the tech level table and compare the appropriate planetary digits with the descriptions; note all DMs indicated, and sum them to form one total DM. Throw one die, and modify the result, thus determining the local technological level. Note the result in the appropriate records.

World technological levels may vary from 0 to 20, more commonly ranging from 4 to 10. Higher numbers indicate greater capability. The technological level is used in conjunction with the technological level table to determine the general quality and capability of local industry. ② The tables indicate the general types or categories of goods in general use on the world. ③ In most cases, such goods are the best which may be produced locally, although better goods may be imported by local organizations or businesses when a specific need is felt. ④ Local citizenry will usually not be armed with weapons of a type which cannot be produced locally, although police or military may be. ⑤ Tech level also indicates the general ability of local technology to repair or maintain items which have failed or malfunctioned.⑥

The technological level tables have several spaces or holes, and such gaps should be filled in by the referee or the players when they discover items or devices of interest.
(TTB, p. 82, circled numbers added to point to discussion)​

It contradicts itself.
① Capability? Yep.
② General Quality and Capability of local industry. Matches ① .
③ Available goods on world. Congruent with but not the same as ① & ②
④ Escape clause that makes it possible that a world with no industry can still have a TL 4+...
⑤ TL thus can't be used to determine troop armaments... Another escape clause.
⑥ This is, for me, the real meat... It's what can be repaired locally.


So, we have 4 definitions of TL in one chunk of rules.
1) Industrial capability
2) What is available on world
3) What's in common use
4) What local people use for hunting and personal defense.

Still in CT.

the next page...

Tech Level: The technological level of a world determines the quality and sophistication of the products of a world.⑦ It indicates what precise types of equipment are available and common locally.⑧
(TTB, p 83. Emphasis original.)​

⑦ Output quality
⑧ Common use

Again, not a singular definition.

DGP took this, and in Grand Census, expanded it to the TL table breakout being a bunch of subratings, on the tables on ... TTB 86-87, ST bk 2 p 16-17, CT 2e LBB 3 pp 14-15, CT 1e (PDF) LBB 3 pp. 10-11.

Speaking of CT 1E... here's its text on TL...

The degree of technological expertise, and thus the capabilities of local industry, depends greatly on the basic characteristics of a world. This technological index is generated based on a one die throw, modified by DMs dependent on planetary characteristics.

Consult the technological index matrix, and reference the appropriate planetary values with the descriptions; note all DMs indicated, and sum them to form one total DM. Throw one die, and modify the result, thus determining the local technological index. Note the result in the appropriate records.
Technological index may vary from zero to 18, more commonly ranging from 4 through about 10. Higher numbers indicate greater capability.

The technological index is used in conjunction with the technological level table to determine the general quality and capability of local industry. The tables indicate the general types or categories of goods in general use on the world. In most cases, such goods are the best which may be produced locally, although better goods may be imported by local organizations or businesses when a specific need is felt. In most cases, local citizenry will not be armed with weapons of a type which cannot be produced locally, although police or military units may be armed with weapons up to several levels above local technology. Technological level also indicates the general ability of local technology to repair or maintain items which have tailed or malfunctioned.

The technological level tables have several spaces or holes, and such gaps should be filled in by the referee or the players when they discover items or devices of interest.
(CT-77 aka CT 1E LBB 3, pp 9-11)​

Again, the same contradictions. Not bothering to annotate, as I presume the reader capable of noting the similarities with the 1983 TTB text.

From the get go, it's been a "Usually what they can produce, but can also be what they can repair or what they prefer to use."

So, Alaska, with no actual manufacturing other than WW2 shipyards, but with TL 8 stuff everywhere, is TL8, and has TL7 repair facilities (no high tech electronics repair anymore, at least not that I'm aware of, but many pilots rely upon Andresson Radio for repair to their TL6 or 7 aircraft radios), with TL 6 local manufacture.

 

[mike wightman]

It is important to understand that technological level does not necessarily imply that a world is capable of creating or manufacturing materials at that tech level; merely that
such items are present. Consider, for example, that many cities use equipment which is of a certain sophistication, for example, modern computers- but there is no corresponding manufacturing ability for such items in most cities.

CT S3 Spinward Marches.

Now within the Spimward Marches there are TL15 worlds just one jump away along trade routes. It costs you a Cr1000 freight charge to ship in a ton of TL15 widgets - personal weapons and armour, makers, spare parts, grav modules etc.

So why isn't the world one jump away TL15 since it can easily import this stuff?

Two jumps, up to eight parsecs on a megacorp jump 4 trader, your surcharge is Cr2000 per ton, again if the per item cost is worth it this additional fee is pretty absorbable.

Why aren't all worlds within two to three jumps of a TL15 world not also TL15 since they can import all this stuff cheaply...

a setting quandary.

 

[aramis]

CT S3 Spinward Marches.

One of the 4 cases covered in the rulebook.

 

[mike wightman]

So, Alaska, with no actual manufacturing other than WW2 shipyards, but with TL 8 stuff everywhere, is TL8, and has TL7 repair facilities (no high tech electronics repair anymore, at least not that I'm aware of, but many pilots rely upon Andresson Radio for repair to their TL6 or 7 aircraft radios), with TL 6 local manufacture.

Didn't realise Alaska had fusion power plants, air/rafts and laser carbines - all CT TL8. Dial it back to YL7 and I will agree with your point

This yet again highlights how you assign a TL though, because of the six technologies on the TL8 line three can not be claimed to be even remotely close (the three I mentioned) here in the real world, while three (vac suits, autocannon and model 2bis and artillery computers) have been around for a while.

You could seriously make a case for us to be TL11 as far as computer technology goes.

 

[creativehum]

Hello Aramis,

Thank you for the annotations! That was great.

I do, however, read several of the points differently than you do:

① Capability? Yep.
② General Quality and Capability of local industry. Matches ① .
③ Available goods on world. Congruent with but not the same as ① & ②
④ Escape clause that makes it possible that a world with no industry can still have a TL 4+...
⑤ TL thus can't be used to determine troop armaments... Another escape clause.
⑥ This is, for me, the real meat... It's what can be repaired locally.

As you state, 1 and 2 line up. And once one puts the emphasis on "general use" on point 3, all three line up easily and within an easy to understand context of the passage.

"In most cases, such goods are the best which may be produced locally, although better goods may be imported by local organizations or businesses when a specific need is felt."
Point 4 simply states that good above the Technological Index might be on the world because someone imports them. This doesn't effect the Tech Index, nor is a matter of the Tech Index. It's simply a statement of fact that makes the matter clearer for the reader. It makes a clear that "The highest good available on a world does not effect the Tech Index... and here's why."

"Local citizenry will usually not be armed with weapons of a type which cannot be produced locally, although police or military may be."
Point 5 isn't, in my view, an escape clause at all. It is, once again, a clarification for the reader that there made be goods on a world that are above the Tech Index. Certain limited groups (police or military) might be armed with goods above the Tech Index. This, once again, isn't part of the definition of the Tech Index. It is an example of how there might be variance from the Tech Index on a given world. The Tech Index will remain at the level of local industry and commonly used/available goods.

"Tech level also indicates the general ability of local technology to repair or maintain items which have failed or malfunctioned."
I think point 6 can be viewed as wobbly if one looks for exceptional cases (crystal radios mentioned above, for example). But as long as one remembers that the word "industry" is key to all the definitions in this conversation, I think it's easy enough remember that highly skilled craftsman or an off-world sponsored military based can work above a planet's Tech Index can exist on a given world and still not redefine the Tech Index. I understand that this reading will probably be the one some folks might want to most argue, but given the rest of the text, for me the meaning isn't at all complicated.

To sum up:

Points 4 and 5 have nothing to do with defining the Tech Index, and merely explain the exceptions to the Tech Index that might be found on the world.

Point 6 is a baseline for solid RPG play (what can be repaired? what can't?). But from Points 1-5, we know there will be the common technology used by most citizens of the world, as well as the max industry of the world, as well as the exceptions to that Index that might be scattered across a given world that do not effect the Tech Index as they are not part of the common industry.

How does any of this sit with you?

 

[mike wightman]

My computer breaks.
It can be repaired easily at the local PC World. The spare parts are shipped from China however - not locally produced in the UK.
My car breaks.
It needs a spare part that a local machine shop could make or it can be shipped in from Germany, along with another 10,000 spare parts so the shipping cost + part is less than the price of local manufacture.

 

[flykiller]

My computer breaks.
It can be repaired easily at the local PC World. The spare parts are shipped from China however - not locally produced in the UK.
My car breaks.
It needs a spare part that a local machine shop could make or it can be shipped in from Germany, along with another 10,000 spare parts so the shipping cost + part is less than the price of local manufacture.

so tech level is defined by two factors: what can be done locally, and what can be shipped in as if it were done locally - virtually local.

consider rhylanor/porozlo, pop 9 tech F adjacent to pop A tech A. why isn't porozlo tech F? any explanation will have to address the lack of trade availability.