The more they over think the plumbing.....

[Fovean]

They're not building a TL 9 ship with only TL 9 tools, techniques, and theories. Instead, they're using TL F tools, techniques, and theories to build a ship which can then be maintained and repaired with only TL 9 tools and techniques.

This.

I run a similar scenario IMTU, for instance Heya:
Spinward Marches 2402
B687745-5

TL5, class B port. Obviously they import a lot of tech but have knowledge enough to repair and build standard Imperial spacecraft and refine fuel . As an Ag planet IMTU they also have wind, solar and wave power generation (TL7 ?? tech but using TL5 components) and in the central jungles medicines are being harvested that require TL9+ knowledge to discover and understand but can be synthesized using TL5 chemistry. No orbital starport but two major downports: one in the Vargr enclave that is functionally TL8 and one in the Human capital which is functionally TL9. TL drops rapidly the farther one journeys from the ports.

Lots of fun dichotomy without being a "horse-n-gravcart" environment.

 

[flykiller]

Instead, it's applying TL F knowledge and theories through a TL 9 tools and techniques "lens" of sorts.

and how is this translated into game terms? (using hg2) a tech F power plant is already smaller and cheaper than a tech 9 power plant - what would a tech 9 power plant built using tech F knowledge and theories be? and the hull? the weapons? the jump drive? the maneuver drive?

this concept works for computers and I already have such a rule for computers. a model 8 computer built by a tech 15 society has the size and cost and power requirements as a model 7. a model 6 computer, as a model 3.

15 -> 14 -> 13
15 -> 13 -> 11
15 -> 12 -> 9

thus a model 6 built at a tech 15 facility can fit into a scout ship built to handle a model 3 with a power requirement of 1ep. if you can find one, of course ....

but it's not clear how this would work with other starship components.

 

[Condottiere]

Probably some form of plug and play; the Imperium can impose top down engineering standards, and after three millenia, they've probably figured out the most efficient way of implementing them.

 

[Whipsnade]

I run a similar scenario IMTU, for instance Heya: (snip)

Exactly. Glad to see someone else "gets" it.

I've been presenting this interpretation at COTI and elsewhere for years now. It's not my idea either; Remember, I steal and modify rather than create.

The idea has been around for decades. I first ran across it in an article for the dead tree issue of JTAS called Twisting Tech Levels or some such. Among other examples, the author correctly pointed out that, given Rome's tech level, her legions could have easily been armed with muskets and cannon. Blackpowder is little more than alchemy and the metallurgy isn't a stretch at all. Hell, an invention which would have changed Rome out of recognition, hay, doesn't require any technology at all.

The great Paul Drye followed up the idea for SJGame's JTAS in an article entitled Primitive but not stupid. The TL 1 or 2, world spanning, empire in his example has guns, is knit together by semaphore telegraphs and animal powered railways, has the printing press, and several other "advanced technologies" all because higher TL ideas are being applied through lower TL capabilities.

I believe part of the problem is ancient disconnect between tech levels as presented in Traveller's rules and tech levels as they must work in Traveller's free trade, no Prime Directive, OTU setting.

People fail to adjust the rule to the setting and end up bleating about how it's "impossible" that TL 1 Mudbrick-2 can host a Class A port or exist one parsec away from TL F Nano-3.

 

[Whipsnade]

and how is this translated into game terms?

Anyway you want.

IIRC, T5 has rules for what you're asking, but the issue goes further than pricing and/or sizing starship components. Remember, we're talking about more than drives, screens, or computers. We're talking about ideas.

The people on TL 0 Paleo-IV are going to know about the germ theory of disease for example. Mariners on TL 1 Thalassa-II are going to have compasses, stern post rudders, lanteen sails, and know how to prevent scurvy among dozens of other things. Nova Roma-V, also at TL-1, will have semaphore telegraphs, railways both urban and rural, gliders, guns, hay, along with better techniques and tools for hundreds of activities.

I'm not suggesting that Paleo-IV is somehow building jump drives at TL 0. There are going to be some ideas that simply cannot be used at a given TL due to the available tooling, materials, etc. The amount of labor available is going to limit the application of others, a TL 0 tribe of a few dozen isn't going to have enough hands to create all the things necessary to adopt even TL 1 agricultural system. However, you can "push" most ideas quite a ways "down" the TL chart.

A TL 9 world building starships isn't that much of a stretch when you remember they'll have access to TL F knowledge.

 

[flykiller]

T5 has rules for what you're asking

oh, ok. I have nothing past lbb 6, so I was going by high guard 2.

Nova Roma-V, also at TL-1, will have semaphore telegraphs, railways both urban and rural, gliders, guns, hay, along with better techniques and tools for hundreds of activities.

so ... does tech level 0 or 1 or 2 or 3 exist in the imperium? sounds like it wouldn't.

 

[Whipsnade]

oh, ok. I have nothing past lbb 6, so I was going by high guard 2.

The Twisted Tech Levels article I mentioned is of the same vintage so it's right in your wheelhouse.

Also as you mentioned, you've both LBB:2 and LBB:5 High Guard with their differing drive tables. An easier way to "resolve" your "problem" is to rule that HG2's tables refer to drives designed and built at their respective TLs while LBB:2's drives are those TL F designs "pushed" down to TL 9 capabilities.

While you can fudge anything else the same way if you want, you need to ask yourself if it's worth the effort. How much will it really add to your game? How much will it really add to your players' enjoyment?

so ... does tech level 0 or 1 or 2 or 3 exist in the imperium? sounds like it wouldn't.

Remember, it's not TL 0, 1, or 2 knowledge, instead it's TL 0, 1, or 2 capabilities.

And there's also those various Red Zones and "protected" cultures. They very well might have RAW TLs, that is a tech level which refers to both knowledge and capabilities. MT's Behind Blue Eyes campaign comes first to mind as an example. It features a previously "protected" medieval culture on a gas giant moon which has been very recently contacted thanks to a war. So you have few handguns and a hidden SDB frolicking with chainmail, halberds, longbows, and all the rest.

 

[flykiller]

So you have few handguns

like unosuke?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzFq5hOlZ5s

 

[Whipsnade]

like unosuke?

More like 9mm automatics passed out to a few local movers and shakers to earn a little goodwill.

In other words, bribes.

 

[kilemall]

Certainly one can get a PGMP-12 on a tech 5 world, although at exorbitant costs not counting becoming the price of being THE person to kill of whatever enemies one is generating.

But it's insanely rare, impossible to support, not gonna get fixed except by imported parts and expertise that does not exist normally on that rock.

Remember what TL means- it means what the prevalent tech is on the planet.

In a caveat emptor free trade environment, that is going to mean what people can afford, and the expertise the planet builds up being able to support it.

Of COURSE everyone would like to live the TL15 high life. But clearly it doesn't happen, and I'd say it's because of the economic underpinning of the planet, not enough value produced to trade and not enough native industrial capacity, and the skills for maintenance much less manufacture at TL15 are not viable because there isn't enough 'installed customer base' for it. Because they can't afford it.

And that the reverse would obtain for lower tech items- you CAN get a horse shoed, but it's not like getting new tires on every corner in a modern city, you have to go out of your way and be constrained by limited suppliers.

How can you have a B-5 starport? Well I suppose the same way you can have a high tech factory making electronics in some third world country that is profitable to do because of the lower labor costs while crops are grown via oxen and everyone gets around by scooter at best, or the US Ulithi base in WWII while the natives are TL2-3.

In that case I would expect the ref to not treat the B-5 starport yards like they are the same thing as B-F yards- it's all parts shipped in, new craft are made only with imported components, naval architects have to be consulted on another higher tech world, parts cost more but labor is less so it evens out, etc. etc.

 

[Whipsnade]

Certainly one can get a PGMP-12 on a tech 5 world...

Sure, you can import whatever you can afford.

Remember what TL means- it means what the prevalent tech is on the planet.

You don't understand. Let me try to get the point across again

You're conflating technical capabilities with technical knowledge, something people in our post-industrial culture often do. The two are only casually linked.

I can build a crystal radio set with TL 0 technical capabilities after the TL 4 technical knowledge is developed, I can make gunpowder with TL 0 capabilities after the TL 2 knowledge is developed, and I can make a pot-in-pot refrigerator like the ones used to keep vaccines safely cool in Nigerian clinics with TL 0 capabilities once the TL 4 knowledge is developed. Knowledge is more than half the battle. Often times the capabilities existed well before the knowledge caught up.

In a caveat emptor free trade environment...

... TL 0 people are going to know about radios. They're not stupid and they're trading with people who use them all the time. Sooner or later, someone is going to trade them the knowledge of building crystal sets and building their own crystal sets is going to be far cheaper than trying to trade for a TL 7 transistor radio they cannot repair.

... that is going to mean what people can afford, and the expertise the planet builds up being able to support it.

This isn't about planetary development or technological uplift. This about people using lower TL capabilities to build certain items thanks to the preexisting knowledge from higher TLs.

Of COURSE everyone would like to live the TL15 high life. But clearly it doesn't happen, and I'd say it's because of the economic underpinning of the planet, not enough value produced to trade and not enough native industrial capacity, and the skills for maintenance much less manufacture at TL15 are not viable because there isn't enough 'installed customer base' for it. Because they can't afford it.

No. Fred and Barney aren't going to try and build Bedrock's first arcology in some attempt to bootstrap their world to TL F.

Instead, they're going to have gunpowder because there's no reason you can't make it at TL 0 once the idea is known. They're going to use pot-in-pot refrigerators, they're going to make and store hay, they're going to wash their hands after they defecate, they're going link their towns by semaphores, they're going to operate animal drawn railways, and they're going to be making, building, and operating hundreds of other things with their TL 0 capabilities because all the knowledge up TL 1 through F has already been developed.

Fred and Barney don't need to reinvent the wheel so they're free to build the best wheel they can with their capabilities. They don't need to reinvent anything. All they need to do is attempt to recreate higher TL ideas with their lower TL capabilities.

How can you have a B-5 starport?

That question has been answered for decades now.

Well I suppose the same way you can have a high tech factory making electronics in some third world country that is profitable to do because of the lower labor costs while crops are grown via oxen and everyone gets around by scooter at best, or the US Ulithi base in WWII while the natives are TL2-3.

And that's the decades-old answer.

 

[kilemall]

You don't understand. Let me try to get the point across again

You're conflating technical capabilities with technical knowledge, something people in our post-industrial culture often do. The two are only casually linked.

I can build a crystal radio set with TL 0 technical capabilities after the TL 4 technical knowledge is developed, I can make gunpowder with TL 0 capabilities after the TL 2 knowledge is developed, and I can make a pot-in-pot refrigerator like the ones used to keep vaccines safely cool in Nigerian clinics with TL 0 capabilities once the TL 4 knowledge is developed. Knowledge is more than half the battle. Often times the capabilities existed well before the knowledge caught up.



... TL 0 people are going to know about radios. They're not stupid and they're trading with people who use them all the time. Sooner or later, someone is going to trade them the knowledge of building crystal sets and building their own crystal sets is going to be far cheaper than trying to trade for a TL 7 transistor radio they cannot repair.

In which case if they consistently do that across all technologies their world will eventually be assessed to TL4-5 because that's the default most common equipment status, and will be able to produce goods and services at that economic level to trade- but not TL7.

And I refute your comment, we already have a world full of iPhones and entire countries unable to do much more then buy replacements.

This isn't about planetary development or technological uplift. This about people using lower TL capabilities to build certain items thanks to the preexisting knowledge from higher TLs.

Uplift by another name is still uplift.

But they still aren't building starships.

Fred and Barney don't need to reinvent the wheel so they're free to build the best wheel they can with their capabilities. They don't need to reinvent anything. All they need to do is attempt to recreate higher TL ideas with their lower TL capabilities.

Yes, but that wheel isn't going to go onto a semi truck and work, they will just have a high tech rubberized stone wheel ox cart.

And if they roll up to the local starport and try selling their best wheel on the interstellar market, they are going to have to sell a LOT of them to buy that PGMP.

Probably their best bet is a 'genuine caveman wheel' fad because it's not going to be very useful to anyone except other TL1-2 customers.

That question has been answered for decades now.

Ah, more been there done that.

 

[GypsyComet]

In which case if they consistently do that across all technologies their world will eventually be assessed to TL4-5 because that's the default most common equipment status, and will be able to produce goods and services at that economic level to trade- but not TL7.

Only if they develop the capability to produce actual TL4-5 goods. In a trade environment TL is about infrastructure and local manufacturing, not about knowledge.

And I refute your comment, we already have a world full of iPhones and entire countries unable to do much more then buy replacements.

Do you honestly expect every citizen of a TL8 society to be casually capable of complex repair of cutting edge equipment? Heinlein-style Competency ⌧ aside, specialization is what makes societies occur in the first place.

Uplift by another name is still uplift.

Not if the guy who named it also gets to set the rules. In Traveller, the rules makers are typically Vilani, and if they say you're TL0 on their scale, they you are TL0.

But they still aren't building starships.

Port designation is also different when applied to an actual setting. Polity ports are not independent ports, just like polity TL is not independent TL.

We have examples in CT Canon of ports being more than one classification depending on who asks. Look up Shirene in Spinward Marches Campaign.

Until a few years ago Earth as a whole was technically a C port at best, and more likely a D, because there was no commercial capability to build. A random (but rich) inhabitant couldn't walk into a Licensed Shipwright and order a spacecraft, much less a starship. It was all government run for government purposes. We are only now nominally a C and heading for B, albeit TL8, even though we've had governments building "spaceships" since TL6.

Yes, but that wheel isn't going to go onto a semi truck and work, they will just have a high tech rubberized stone wheel ox cart.

And if they roll up to the local starport and try selling their best wheel on the interstellar market, they are going to have to sell a LOT of them to buy that PGMP.

Probably their best bet is a 'genuine caveman wheel' fad because it's not going to be very useful to anyone except other TL1-2 customers.

Which is why they'll still be TL1-2 when the Scouts come by to re-evaluate their TL.

Ah, more been there done that.

You are going to get that response a lot. You consciously stayed in CT. Questions have been answered, or at least discussed, that CT only gets as far as asking.

 

[flykiller]

a world full of iPhones and entire countries unable to do much more then buy replacements.

Do you honestly expect every citizen of a TL8 society to be casually capable of complex repair of cutting edge equipment?

perhaps we need definitions of "world" and "tech level". for example we say "the united states" can manufacture modern computer chips, but in reality only a few hundred people at most have such skill and access to the vast industrial design capability necessary to perform it. is it proper to say that "the united states" has this capability?

in the ancient roman empire virtually all pottery was manufactured by one huge facility in syria, whose product was shipped as far as scotland. obviously "the roman empire" "had pottery technology", but the terms seem only loosely related to the reality.

consider a nation like saudi arabia. it has nothing but oil and sand - yet you can purchase just about anything you want there. what is it's "tech level"?

 

[robject]

perhaps we need definitions of "world" and "tech level".

Can you sum up the overarching problem/issue for Traveller in a sentence? I'm working off of sleep deprivation plus caffeine today so my brain isn't in gear. Plus I want to hear where you're coming from.

From there, do you think you can get to a solution (or a nice label on the problem so everyone can chew on the same bone)? What sort of options are there?

 

[flykiller]

off the top of my head the overarching "problem" is 1) traveller is conceived with an american mindset - everything is new, entire worlds and cultures and societies and governments are just now venturing out into the greater world - and 2) the third imperium already is a thousand years old, not counting everything that came before. these two conceptions conflict, and reconciliation is difficult.

perhaps the best (but not the only) resolution is culture. worlds are what they are because of the people which inhabit them. what keeps american mennonites from becoming an industrial powerhouse? nothing, they choose to be what they are. what keeps haiti from becoming a financial powerhouse like hong kong? well, they ... well, I'll let the reader decide. consider america, formed mostly because people wanted to escape what was in europe and enact their own visions of what a nation and society should be. one could envision the entire spinward marches forming in just such a manner, one planet at a time.

"hey, my airraft is acting up, got any raft mechanics?"

"no, we don't do that here."

 

[BillDowns]

Wow. I come back a few hours later and there are pages of posts! LOL

Shows there is an interest. The beauty of Traveller, at least CT and MGT, is you can easilt mod it how you wish. I posted my mod - use it or not - it's your game.

 

[BillDowns]

Recalling the previous references to the difference between knowledge and capability, there are several of us on this forum that could explain how to build a relay-based digital computer to Babbage in the 1830's, some 20 years before Boole's logic was published.

 

[atpollard]

TL in Traveller needs to be viewed as a measure of local general availability ... most likely through manufacture, but potentially through imported technology. The key is what one would commonly encounter as the norm in that environment.

The fact that every person on the planet knows how to build a supercomputer by hand matters not a whit if integrated circuits can neither be manufactured locally nor imported in sufficient quantity to permeate the society. The well educated colonist just goes back to his Amish forge and works on replacing that horse shoe so he can plow the back forty before the rains start.

This DOES mean that some technology needs to be shifted earlier. One can print as early as TL 1 if there is a NEED for printed documents. TL 0 can certainly use explosives to go dynamite fishing if they had a desire to do so.

 

[Condottiere]

Never really had a problem with an Americanesque viewpoint in Traveller, probably because most scifi that I read and watched originated there.

I think it still does.