T 5 Has arrived!!!!

[jericson]

As is clear from my posts, IMO the T5 development/release process has not been optimal exactly--but Marc always did make it clear that the CD we'd be getting would be an Alpha/Beta version, not the definitive thing.

That is not exactly how I took it. It was the initial release - much like, oh, say the LBBs were the initial release for CT - followed with other releases. (Mercenary, High Guard, Merchant Prince, adventures, etc etc etc.)

It was NOT clear that it was a Beta program. (Given that it was billed as T5 being almost complete, I took it to mean that pre-orders are available.)

What company charges people to alpha/beta their products? (Well, other than Microsoft.... )

 

[DaveChase]

...
What company charges people to alpha/beta their products? (Well, other than Microsoft.... )

Actually Marc and company were alpha/beta testing their own products. With the delay of the release date, they decided to allow those whom had paid for the product the opportunity to be involved with the beta/playtesting of T5.

I thought it was a great way to say (IMO) sorry, we missed our release date.

Dave Chase

 

[Darkhstarr]

I totally agree it was a great idea. I also felt good to be part of the process.



I thought it was a great way to say (IMO) sorry, we missed our release date.

Dave Chase[/QUOTE]

 

[jericson]

Actually Marc and company were alpha/beta testing their own products. With the delay of the release date, they decided to allow those whom had paid for the product the opportunity to be involved with the beta/playtesting of T5.

I thought it was a great way to say (IMO) sorry, we missed our release date.

Dave Chase

So long as those of use that pre-ordered get the final version, I don't have a problem.

The way it's sounding here makes it sound like we'll need to pony up again for the final version. (I hope that is not the case.)

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

On a general note, I'm slowly delving into T5, and really, it's an astounding document. Anyone who hears "Beta" (or Alpha, or whatever), and thinks "slapdash draft file" should reconsider. It's anything but that.

 

[pendragonman]

So long as those of use that pre-ordered get the final version, I don't have a problem.

The way it's sounding here makes it sound like we'll need to pony up again for the final version. (I hope that is not the case.)

If you note what Don said, there is an update mechanism. Therefore, all of the preorder people will be able to get to the final set of docs by the update route.

Now, using the update route MAY come to mean that we need to make our own final CDs. I hope not, but there is that possibility.

Any of us who have been at least paying attention when we preordered and paid attention to all major comments in the private forum should be under no illusions. This IS what we paid for, and this is what we got. After all, what if there are several rounds of updates between here and the printer (a highly likely event)? Do you all really expect that Marc could afford to send us a new CD at each update? I am not sure that what we paid would cover him sending us a final update CD, postage rates being what they are.

Now if he were to offer to send us a final version CD (shipped without the nifty cover/case, we could just replace the early disc with the final draft) for just the cost of the postage, each of us could then decide if the cost to ship is worth having a shiny new official cd versus a home done cd downloaded and made from the updater.

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

Do you all really expect that Marc could afford to send us a new CD at each update?

Not a new CD, but a link to to the download of the final version would do nicely.

 

[DonM]

I've commented on the update question in the Private Forum, where that question belongs.

 

[scout_harris]

I've commented on the update question in the Private Forum, where that question belongs.

I find this slightly annoying.

If I order (pay money for) T5 now? What will I get?
Will the money I lay down be paying for a complete and final version? Or is it just to pay for the preliminary version the T5 website claims.

My annoyance lies in the lack of transparency about the purchase of the product. Comments like the above do not make me feel any better about making the purchase.
Seeing the secrecy surrounding what is actually in the product does not give me confidence that the purchase is worth it, or for that matter, that it is what it claims to be.

I would like to make a request for a little more information about the content of the product, and if I make a purchase of the product, will I be given the final version free of charge as an additional CD, download, whatever.

Or will I need to make an additional purchase for the final version?

 

[Budman]

so I just poped over from rpg net on hearing about T5 has been shipped and I find this unholy mess... what the hell.

it's still a playtest and your not to review it or even talk about it....

I know the game is stuck in 70's tech but ya know your on the internet. infomation is the only thing you have

so spill as this kind of thing just makes for bad feeling..

edit - this is my first post here after being a lerker for years and I use it to moan... go figure

 

[Andrew Boulton]

I think we've all been so focused on all the behind-the-scenes stuff (like actually writing it ) that we've neglected the PR aspect.

 

[mike wightman]

Yey, mine dropped on the mat this morning =)

 

[Supplement Four]

I think we've all been so focused on all the behind-the-scenes stuff (like actually writing it ) that we've neglected the PR aspect.

Yessir, you are correct.

I keep trying to be hopeful about T5, but some of the decisions surrounding that game are asinine.

This whole "buy it but keep a lid on it" is the prime example.

I'm rapidly losing interest in T5.

 

[aramis]

When it was first announced, it was implied that it would be everything, and that the "dead tree" T5 would be a subset, with all the supplements being more from the CD. No sense of Beta, just all-in-one preorder.

It soon became "It's a beta for the Dead Tree T5"... now, it's an Alpha.

That's a major change in focus; it borders on false advertisment. (Ty, got a read on that?)

 

[infojunky]

When it was first announced, it was implied that it would be everything, and that the "dead tree" T5 would be a subset, with all the supplements being more from the CD. No sense of Beta, just all-in-one preorder.

It soon became "It's a beta for the Dead Tree T5"... now, it's an Alpha.

That's a major change in focus

Actually the change of what the release is relieves me. In that we can discuss what has potential and what is for-truly broken.

One of the better points is that they have strong sense of what the layout. It is an iconic feel. All that is needed in a lot of places is the words to back it up.

 

[tbeard1999]

When it was first announced, it was implied that it would be everything, and that the "dead tree" T5 would be a subset, with all the supplements being more from the CD. No sense of Beta, just all-in-one preorder.

It soon became "It's a beta for the Dead Tree T5"... now, it's an Alpha.

That's a major change in focus; it borders on false advertisment. (Ty, got a read on that?)

Well, I suspect that Marc would refund anyone's money who was dissatisfied, so no harm, no foul.

In Texas, like most states, we have laws against deceptive advertising, and a separate deceptive trade practices act (DTPA):

§ 17.12. DECEPTIVE ADVERTISING. (a) No person may disseminate a statement he knows materially misrepresents the cost or character of tangible personal property, a security, service, or anything he may offer for the purpose of

(1) selling, contracting to sell, otherwise disposing of, or contracting to dispose of the tangible personal property, security, service, or anything he may offer; or

(2) inducing a person to contract with regard to the tangible personal property, security, service, or anything he may offer.
...
(d) A person who violates a provision of Subsection (a) or (b) of this Section is guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction is punishable by a fine of not less than $10 nor more than $200.

Note that this statute requires intentional misrepresentation. If product specifications change, I don't think there would be deceptive advertising (unless the now-inaccurate ads were intentionally left up to mislead others into buying the product).

The Texas DTPA allows for treble damages and legal costs, but imposes a regime of notices and opportunities to settle that effectively allow these things to get settled early if both sides are acting reasonably.

And many of the outrageous claims made by many RPGs would probably constitute deceptive advertising ("fast-playing", "realistic", "comprehensive")

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

That's a major change in focus; it borders on false advertisment. (Ty, got a read on that?)

C'mon, that's an exaggeration. As soon as the projected content of the CD changed Marc offered refunds to those who pre-ordered. In fact, he did so several times IIRC.

The public/private mishmash is a disaster, though.

Meanwhile, I made a character, and it's rather... interesting. A lot of thought went into chargen, i.e. how many skills per term for which class, given such and such entry level and drop-out ratio... not sure yet if it adds up in each case, but it's fun thinking about it.

 

[DonM]

When it was first announced, it was implied that it would be everything, and that the "dead tree" T5 would be a subset, with all the supplements being more from the CD. No sense of Beta, just all-in-one preorder.

It soon became "It's a beta for the Dead Tree T5"... now, it's an Alpha.

That's a major change in focus; it borders on false advertisment. (Ty, got a read on that?)

Which announcement? Remember, I've been waiting for T5 since 1997. I pointedly ignored the first playtest and the fallout from that. And I also know you know all the history here.

Aramis, I understand you're anti-T5, but tagging Marc with false advertisement is very wrong. And that major change in focus happened a long time ago.

And I double-checked, and you're not a pre-orderer. So what is the complaint here?

 

[hunter]

That's a major change in focus; it borders on false advertisment. (Ty, got a read on that?)

Tell ya what. Next time before you go accusing someone of willfully violating the law, you make damn sure you know what you are talking about before you do so. And if you still do it? Do it elsewhere.

This goes for anyone or anything. Do not, let me repeat this, do not do this here again. Beyond the fact it pisses me off, it can have legal ramifications on you, me, my company, etc...

You have a problem with T5 as it is available, discuss it. Hell discuss the fact you don't think you got what you thought you would. But leave the legal accusations out of it.

 

[aramis]

Understood. I screwed up. Sorry, Hunter, Marc.

Don: When the CD was first announced, about the same time the collected game line CD's were.