Strange New Worlds
- Thread starter JohnMarsh
- Start date
True, but it is a big Imperium. In an Imperium with untold trillions of people, no doubt there are billions of people doing things for silly reasons. And there is something about people with silly reasons being successful, can you the top 50 skilled mountain climbers who decided that climbing Everest just wasn't worth the risk (the sensible people) to compare with Hillary who climbed it "because it's there" (a pretty silly reason). Indeed, silly ideas often seem to grip groups of people - was there any non-silly to an outside observer reason for either Britain or Agentina to go to war over the Falklands Islands in the 1980s, sure the islands are worth something but worth a war for either side? (apologies to anyone who feels that the war was reasonable, I have no problem with national pride and understand it, but from an economic point of view it is unreasonable to expend so much material and wealth to control something so economically worthless.)
I'm not saying that only cranks start colonies and all are based upon some silliness. I am saying when you trap yourself with something (like a low tech religious colony on a vaccum world) which makes no sense, you have to factor that RL people do things for reasons that makes no sense.
x starport
FWIW, I just discovered that X class starports in this area is an old discussion.
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=9664&page=4
FWIW, I just discovered that X class starports in this area is an old discussion.
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=9664&page=4
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Like all good topics it's always new to someone and there's always a chance for a fresh perspective 
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
I saw this last night but couldn't check. I didn't see how Starter Edition could have been different from LBB3 and TTB. I thought maybe you'd stumbled on some lost errata
But I've checked now and you've misread it. My copy (page 14) lists E as the "marked spot of bedrock" and X is "No starport. No provision is made for any ship landings."
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
A quick word of caution on the real world politics gentlemen. Best to avoid entirely as examples but as you have and I missed the first mention just let it go at this point ok.
Thanks for catching that! I didn't misread it; I mistyped X for E.
My bad, edited.
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epicenter00
SOC-13
This topic of discussion (about low-tech worlds not politics) comes up from time to time and the argument has always been, "well, of course it's plausible, you're just not creative enough." I've used the argument myself, but the more I look at Traveller pregens, the more I come to the conclusion, no, it really is a flawed system.
A few of these low-tech wonders is fine (and interesting) if they were relatively uncommon worlds because it allows us to exercise our creativity, but because of the random ridiculousness of the world gen system, it, and similar silliness can be pretty common.
Either that or ... perhaps it's time someone develop a cult or group that likes to do stuff like this that people can use to explain it so others can use it in their games. Perhaps there's a group that likes loony steampunk tech and to "make a go at it" on worlds. My thought it that they wouldn't so much be Luddities (they don't hate technology in the hands of other people and if their children don't agree with them, they're free to leave), but they have a philosophical dislike of any technology that replaces a craftsman or craftswoman's skill and leads to wasteful consumption patterns. Similarly, perhaps they dislike any kind of technology they believe divides people instead of bringing them together.
It might be a movement that, while nowhere near "common", has believers in many parts of the Imperium and they tend to settle these marginal worlds because they believe that in places like that, they'll be left alone to live in the ways they want to live. Eventually, of course, the lure of technology "corrupts" many of these worlds as the population increases and there's more and more children who simply like to live with technology that gives them more free time and so on. In the thousands-of-years long history of Imperium, this has probably happened many times. So eventually, the remainder of these people go and settle some new world.
A few of these low-tech wonders is fine (and interesting) if they were relatively uncommon worlds because it allows us to exercise our creativity, but because of the random ridiculousness of the world gen system, it, and similar silliness can be pretty common.
Either that or ... perhaps it's time someone develop a cult or group that likes to do stuff like this that people can use to explain it so others can use it in their games. Perhaps there's a group that likes loony steampunk tech and to "make a go at it" on worlds. My thought it that they wouldn't so much be Luddities (they don't hate technology in the hands of other people and if their children don't agree with them, they're free to leave), but they have a philosophical dislike of any technology that replaces a craftsman or craftswoman's skill and leads to wasteful consumption patterns. Similarly, perhaps they dislike any kind of technology they believe divides people instead of bringing them together.
It might be a movement that, while nowhere near "common", has believers in many parts of the Imperium and they tend to settle these marginal worlds because they believe that in places like that, they'll be left alone to live in the ways they want to live. Eventually, of course, the lure of technology "corrupts" many of these worlds as the population increases and there's more and more children who simply like to live with technology that gives them more free time and so on. In the thousands-of-years long history of Imperium, this has probably happened many times. So eventually, the remainder of these people go and settle some new world.
But until you come up with Amish or ROOBs who set up settlements in Antarktis using nothing but limited technology, you're not getting anywhere close to an analogy of deliberate TL4 colonies on airless worlds (I've never claimed that low-tech colonies on Earthlike worlds were implausible).
Hans
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There are ROOBs living in the North Slope Borough (arctic circle). Quakers, too. TL2 with some TL4-7 goodies available.
There's a reason why I mentioned Antarktis. It's not just about surviving with primitive technology in an unfriendly environment[*] (The Inuit have done that for millenia), it's also packing up, procuring passage to a place that practically no one ever visits, and setting up shop.
[*] Incidentally, the polar regions of Earth are infinitely more nuturing environments than an airless world.
Hans
Once you have the tunnels filled, it's not "airless"... just dark.
The inuit, inupiaq, and skraelings all also have biophysical adaptations to cold that most ethnic groups don't. (As un-PC as it is to say it, not all races are physically equal, and the Inupiaq prove it.) Ethnic inupiaq can work in temps to -15°C with their hands wet with salt water for periods exceeding 30 minutes without any form of hand protection, and without injury. Many can work for longer and in colder. White folk who try that tend to lose fingers.
TL4 manufacturing techniques include standardization and mass production. he materials used are suitable for same (lots of metals, lots of silicate stuff aka glass), and some polymers (acetate, celluloid, rubber, early vinyl esthers, Nylon, polyesther).
from the MGT rules:
We're talking full on electronics at TL 4. Pretty muh the full spectrum of lighting. Without internal combustion, however, we don't get to TL5... and essentially, IC is a BAD idea in a low-volume environment. The lack of petrochem is likely to slow it, as well; petrochem was a vibrant part of the TL4-5 transition on earth.
Silicone semiconductors, probably separate transitors, can be used for TTL computing for simple systems. Doping silicon isn't hard; geting it even enough for microcircuitry takes some skill.
These guys probably consider electricty their "hydraulic despotism" resource. Moisture will be a problem, because of too much, not too little.
Hmm.
The inuit, inupiaq, and skraelings all also have biophysical adaptations to cold that most ethnic groups don't. (As un-PC as it is to say it, not all races are physically equal, and the Inupiaq prove it.) Ethnic inupiaq can work in temps to -15°C with their hands wet with salt water for periods exceeding 30 minutes without any form of hand protection, and without injury. Many can work for longer and in colder. White folk who try that tend to lose fingers.
TL4 manufacturing techniques include standardization and mass production. he materials used are suitable for same (lots of metals, lots of silicate stuff aka glass), and some polymers (acetate, celluloid, rubber, early vinyl esthers, Nylon, polyesther).
from the MGT rules:
TL 4: (Industrial) The transition to industrial revolution is complete,
bringing plastics, radio and other such inventions. Roughly
comparable to the late 19th/early 20th century.
TL 5: (Industrial) TL 5 brings widespread electrification, telecommunications
and internal combustion. At the high end of the
TL, atomics and primitive computing appear. Roughly on a par with
the mid–20th century.
bringing plastics, radio and other such inventions. Roughly
comparable to the late 19th/early 20th century.
TL 5: (Industrial) TL 5 brings widespread electrification, telecommunications
and internal combustion. At the high end of the
TL, atomics and primitive computing appear. Roughly on a par with
the mid–20th century.
We're talking full on electronics at TL 4. Pretty muh the full spectrum of lighting. Without internal combustion, however, we don't get to TL5... and essentially, IC is a BAD idea in a low-volume environment. The lack of petrochem is likely to slow it, as well; petrochem was a vibrant part of the TL4-5 transition on earth.
Silicone semiconductors, probably separate transitors, can be used for TTL computing for simple systems. Doping silicon isn't hard; geting it even enough for microcircuitry takes some skill.
These guys probably consider electricty their "hydraulic despotism" resource. Moisture will be a problem, because of too much, not too little.
Hmm.
Szurkey,
There are discussions and then there are discussions. It's a matter of degree and not kind.
The thread's discussion had drifted, as these threads always do, into a discussion of human "silliness"; i.e. living on active volcanoes, in earthquake zones, other geologically marginal areas. Human "silliness" became the topic under discussion so, when Max casually pointed out that the war over settlements in the Falklands could be seen as "silly" from this geologically focused perspective, he was entirely correct.
When you began commenting on the participants in the war and the conduct of the war instead of merely those aspects of the war that could have parallels for Traveller, you approached the "No Politics" line. Max merely mentioned a war over a geological marginal territory, you compared and contrasted the two sides while suggesting that one should have been attacked more vigorously.
That's the difference here, it's one of degree and not kind.
Regards,
Bill
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far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Carefully
And asking is fine, I'd go so far as to say great. I hope I can answer it well enough.
As I said above caution has to be the watchword when dealing with real world politics as they apply to the game and discussion. Avoid any potentially baiting remarks. Stick to facts directly germane to the point. When in doubt try to find another way.
I've snagged (and snipped) the two posts above for the bits that might be problems as examples.
Even the author seems aware the remarks have the potential to cause friction. The apology in advance is nice, but it would have been better to avoid the potential trouble entirely as they recognized it and made the point without it or without the potentially inflammatory bits.
And your reply would be reasonable in a political forum. It's hard to fault you entirely as it was in reply, though you come close (too close imo) to a personal attack with the remark ending the first paragraph.
In short, CotI no longer allows (real world) political discussion. If anyone needs to use historical examples to make a point in discussing the game they need to do so very carefully and not make them personal or the point of the discussion.
Review the rules:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/faq.php?faq=cotirules#faq_therules
EDIT: And thanks Bill, that's a good answer too, besides beating me to the post by brevity
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Szurkey,
Well, I know I'm very sorry to hear that and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
As for eliminating all your records, you've the option of deleting your posts. You've made 71 of them so you'd have to delete each individually. You'll have to do the same with any files or images you've posted to those forums too.
Regards,
Bill
Not long before Dan got his Starburst (IE, Moderator), I put my guidlines and Andrew and Kafka didn't complain, and hunter hasn't suggested alternate:
No discussing politicians nor political movements from 1900 on, nor the motivations/decisions thereof, and only clearly ob-trav stuff for before.
Wars are not politics, but their causes usually are, and in some cases their methods are politically shaped. If it's clearly ob-trav, some leeway is likely. If it is gratuitiously political and not relevant, even if it's all 200BC, it's verboten.
That help?
And yes, WWII was intentionally in the banned zone, since the underlying politics are still a modern political issue in some areas best left unspecified.
No discussing politicians nor political movements from 1900 on, nor the motivations/decisions thereof, and only clearly ob-trav stuff for before.
Wars are not politics, but their causes usually are, and in some cases their methods are politically shaped. If it's clearly ob-trav, some leeway is likely. If it is gratuitiously political and not relevant, even if it's all 200BC, it's verboten.
That help?
And yes, WWII was intentionally in the banned zone, since the underlying politics are still a modern political issue in some areas best left unspecified.
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