Strange New Worlds

[splicer]

...but 3 million people live there!

John,

You've made an error in your interpretation of the UWP, either through misunderstanding or oversight (I've done the latter a few times myself ).

New Konigsberg 1733 X200735-4 De Na Va 322 Im K1 V

The population number is an exponent and not a number of digits. Pop code 7 with pop multiplier 3 means 3 x 10^7, or 30,000,000. It is not 3 x 1,000,000. No worries, just means more lungs to fill.

How could, why would anyone...?

Perhaps they are outcasts or isolationists, persecuted elsewhere or fearful of the larger and violent interstellar society. Also, Luddism is often proposed for low-tech worlds in a high-tech galaxy. I propose, instead, prudent planning. Perhaps they desired isolation and, being well aware of the dangers of isolation to a vacuum world colony, the founders planned accordingly. They chose low maintenance caves over high maintenance domes. With no clouds to get in the way, solar solutions for many local problems were proposed from the start. Including one not mentioned here yet, but which is somewhat implied by the nature of the environment and the need for metal and glass works: solar forges. After all, who wants to burn up all of their precious breathing air feeding a combustion furnace? They might use some higher TL gear if it's still functioning properly, or aquire it if available, but choose to rely on what they know they can maintain. Such a pragmatic DIY society would only require high TL to get there and get everything set up. Afterwards, it would become self-sustaining. (1)

But, why pick a lifeless rock over a habitable world? Maybe it's all that was available to them for some reason. Or, maybe they figured nobody else would want it and they would be left alone. Maybe they were fleeing a long past genocide and wanted to make damn sure they weren't found for a very long time. Or, maybe their <insert random social psychology quirk here> was stronger than their collective intelligence.

1. BTW, these solutions are quite applicable to higher tech colonies in isolated locations as well. Caution might dictate planning against isolation-induced colony failure. I mean, vacuum colonies are safe enough if there's offworld trade and support, or if all of your ships still work, but out in the boonies you might have some issues if anything goes wrong. Smart planners would (should) know this. Self-reliance is the key to survival.

 

[rancke]

Perhaps they are outcasts or isolationists, persecuted elsewhere or fearful of the larger and violent interstellar society. Also, Luddism is often proposed for low-tech worlds in a high-tech galaxy. I propose, instead, prudent planning. Perhaps they desired isolation and, being well aware of the dangers of isolation to a vacuum world colony, the founders planned accordingly. They chose low maintenance caves over high maintenance domes. With no clouds to get in the way, solar solutions for many local problems were proposed from the start. Including one not mentioned here yet, but which is somewhat implied by the nature of the environment and the need for metal and glass works: solar forges. After all, who wants to burn up all of their precious breathing air feeding a combustion furnace? They might use some higher TL gear if it's still functioning properly, or aquire it if available, but choose to rely on what they know they can maintain. Such a pragmatic DIY society would only require high TL to get there and get everything set up. Afterwards, it would become self-sustaining. (1)

I'm not arguing (at the moment) that a self-sustaining ecosystem can't be maintained at TL4. I'm surprised to learn that it can be done, and I may have my doubts, but for the moment I'm taking Wil's word for it. For one thing, as I said above, such a society would have a serious coolness factor going for it.

What I'm saying is that it can't be an optimum solution. It must be hard to do and required more effort than at TL9. Technology is not just about can you do it or not, it's also about how much does it cost.

But, why pick a lifeless rock over a habitable world?

Exactly. There are a few trusty standbys, such as the misjumped ship and the cut-off colony, but how often can you use them? What are the odds that a misjumped ship can successfully set up a TL4 colony? What are the odds that a cut-off colony can successfully gear down to TL4? Now multiply those odds by the number of times a misjumped ship winds up on a vacuum world far from any interstellar civilization or the number of times a colony gets cut off from its parent civilization. I very much doubt you'll get anywhere near 1 world in 200.

Maybe it's all that was available to them for some reason. Or, maybe they figured nobody else would want it and they would be left alone. Maybe they were fleeing a long past genocide and wanted to make damn sure they weren't found for a very long time. Or, maybe their <insert random social psychology quirk here> was stronger than their collective intelligence.

Yes, maybe. Again, what are the odds of something like that happening? How many such worlds are you going to find across Charted Space?

1. BTW, these solutions are quite applicable to higher tech colonies in isolated locations as well. Caution might dictate planning against isolation-induced colony failure. I mean, vacuum colonies are safe enough if there's offworld trade and support, or if all of your ships still work, but out in the boonies you might have some issues if anything goes wrong. Smart planners would (should) know this. Self-reliance is the key to survival.

Mankind is a species where people will farm the slopes of active volcanoes because the crops grow so well there. Setting up a colony with fallbacks just in case interstellar civilization collapses requires that people are willing to pay extra to guard against a possibility that few of them are emotionally prepared to even consider possible.


Hans

 

[spinwardpirate]

How many such worlds are you going to find across Charted Space?

If it makes for a fun game, as many as I need!

 

[rancke]

If it makes for a fun game, as many as I need!

Of course. That pretty much goes without saying.

The thing is, going beyond a certain level of implausibility ruins a game for me, and for a number of other people. If I wanted "anything goes" and "who cares about internal consistency" I wouldn't be working with the Traveller Universe, I'd be playing Star Wars or Star Trek or something. It's the dichotomy between the "fairly realistic" aspect of the Traveller paradigm and the low realism generated by the unvetted randomness of some of the Traveller rules that bothers some uf us.

For someone who doesn't care about plausibility and internal consistency, it's not a problem. I get that. What I don't understand is the number of people who don't get that it is a problem to those who do care. Time and again I see variations of the comment/question "Who cares?"

I do. My players do. A number of other posters on these and other forums do. The fact that you don't doesn't alter that.

Get it?



Hans

 

[rancke]

Getting back to the original world, how big would the caves be to contain a biosphere that can support 30 million people? Maybe the world orbits in the inner system and gets more energy per surface area than we do on Earth. If the world is tidelocked, it would also get it 24/7, which might help too.

How would the inhabitants maximize the use they did get out of the sunlight? ISTR that hydroponics gardens are more than usually efficient.

Is the society stable or growing (or declining)? If it's growing, the inhabitants would be working on expanding the life support system. There could be political tensions between those who want the population to grow and those who want to institute zero-population growth and diverting effort into improving the quality of life. Maybe there's also conflict with those who want to stick to the current system and those who want to upgrade to higher TLs.


Hans

 

[spinwardpirate]

Get it?

Sure. And since writing my previous message, I came up with a whole campaign that revolves around a group of troubleshooters whose mission is to save doomed domed worlds that had been abandoned by the previous empire.
:rofl:

 

[splicer]

Greetings Hans,

I'm not arguing (at the moment) that a self-sustaining ecosystem can't be maintained at TL4. I'm surprised to learn that it can be done, and I may have my doubts, but for the moment I'm taking Wil's word for it. For one thing, as I said above, such a society would have a serious coolness factor going for it.

Yes, I sense (and appreciate) that you think it's an interesting concept and are "playing devil's advocate." Hashing out the plausablity, or implausabilty, of concepts helps minimize hand-waving at game time, so I'm all for it. Anyway, the Rule of Cool is a valid invocation.

What I'm saying is that it can't be an optimum solution. It must be hard to do and required more effort than at TL9. Technology is not just about can you do it or not, it's also about how much does it cost.

Please don't let my enthusiasm for "unique" solutions fool you into thinking that I believe it would be easy.

Exactly. There are a few trusty standbys, such as the misjumped ship and the cut-off colony, but how often can you use them? What are the odds that a misjumped ship can successfully set up a TL4 colony? What are the odds that a cut-off colony can successfully gear down to TL4? Now multiply those odds by the number of times a misjumped ship winds up on a vacuum world far from any interstellar civilization or the number of times a colony gets cut off from its parent civilization. I very much doubt you'll get anywhere near 1 world in 200.

I do suspect that the odds of the former are considerably low (compared to the number of times that the explanation has been used) due to lack of preparedness and access to materiel ahead of time. The odds of the latter might be a little better, especially in a future milleu with centuries of higher TLs and starfaring knowledge to draw upon. As to whether 1:200 is a realistic number, I'm still undecided on that question. But, "a small but workable number of times in the history of known space" is probably a better answer than "1 or 2 per sector." What a small and workable number actually is remains to be seen.

Yes, maybe. Again, what are the odds of something like that happening? How many such worlds are you going to find across Charted Space?

Admittedly, the odds are low and the number few. But, possibly workable. In the case of "harried outcasts", "it's all that was available" could mean "forcibly denied anything interesting and denied long-term offworld support." This was their one shot, so they felt compelled to find ways to make it work. Of course, it might have been smarter to just keep looking. but maybe they were reaching a point where it was wiser to just pick a spot and be done with it.

In the rarer and more extreme case of "they planned it that way because they were fleeing genocide and knew they were cutting themselves off", maybe this is the third or fourth or fifth time someone has tried to wipe them out and take their garden world. Having to pick up their society and repeatedly run for their lives might have left them both psychologically scarred and creatively inspired. The latter group is likely to have a less local origin than the former.

Setting up a colony with fallbacks just in case interstellar civilization collapses requires that people are willing to pay extra to guard against a possibility that few of them are emotionally prepared to even consider possible.

I mostly agree. In this seperate case, the level of fallbacks would depend on other factors. Colonies established more distantly (1) from well-trafficked space would probably benefit from such thinking more than those closer to home - especially if founded by folks used to doing that sort of thing (2). Any any case, it doesn't mean that it wouldn't be hard. It doesn't even mean that such a colony wouldn't fail if cut off. It might mean that it's failing slowly enough to show up in the sector data with a pop code higher than 0. In any case, I don't think its the only explaination for survival. "Space colonies would plan for failure to some degree" is just a useful adjuct to other explainations, especially considering the number of times low TL vacuum worlds show up on the map. OTOH, High pop/low TL worlds (like the OP's) require more colorful explanations.

FWIW, I'm not married to any of these ideas. Just throwing out some "what if" responses to the OP's "how and why" questions. And trying to avoid the usual tropes (Luddism, etc.).

1. At the time of their founding.
2. Colonizing airless rocks in far-away places.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Getting back to the original world, how big would the caves be to contain a biosphere that can support 30 million people?

Good question!

Biosphere 2 was a 12,700m2 site built for 8 people. Now if we assume that it averaged 2 stories that would give us about 88,900m3. To make the sums easier call it 88,800m3 to give us 11,100m3 per person.

30 million people? my first guess would be 333,000,000,000 m3 or (3.33 x 10 to 11th m3).

No animals mind, just people and insects ...

Regards,

Ewan

 

[robject]

Good question!

Biosphere 2 was a 12,700m2 site built for 8 people. Now if we assume that it averaged 2 stories that would give us about 88,900m3. To make the sums easier call it 88,800m3 to give us 11,100m3 per person.

30 million people? my first guess would be 333,000,000,000 m3 or (3.33 x 10 to 11th m3).

No animals mind, just people and insects ...

Regards,

Ewan

Biosphere 2 was much taller than 2 stories on the average: in fact, I believe the living areas were perhaps 2 stories, and everything else was taller --- and in fact, deeper, since one of the biomes had a good and huge 10-feet-deep-or-more "tank" of water.

And, B2 contained food animals -- ah, maybe not.

Even with all this, the people suffered mild malnutrition and lost too much weight.

I visited it back in the early 90s. It was stunning.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Biosphere 2 was much taller than 2 stories on the average: in fact, I believe the living areas were perhaps 2 stories, and everything else was taller --- and in fact, deeper, since one of the biomes had a good and huge 10-feet-deep-or-more "tank" of water.

OK, no worries, lets average 3 stories.

gives 133350 for 8 people or 16,668.75 call it 16,700 for 1.

30 million people gives 501,000,000,000 m3.

Regards,

Ewan

 

[aramis]

Some of the after-action analysis of Biosphere II indicates a lack of hydrological attention; in short, they forgot how important water life is.

Given a more water-based system, with various purification stages being biologicals, and the rate in Biosphere II isn't too bad. (It appears to have been misapportioned rather than mis-sized.) In bulk, probably 14,000 m^3 per person is probably sufficient; 1000Td per person. The needed oxygen can be generated in about 10 Td per person with the right kind of plant life from what I've read. It's food that's the killer.

 

[splicer]

Not to distract too much from the solar caves discussion, which is excellent BTW (1), but I wanted to respond to some of the other suggestions here. Not trying to knock anybody's ideas too much, either. Lord knows mine have some flaws as well.

You also seem confused about the "lack" of a starport. What is actually lacking is a public starport whose services are available to anyone. The system could have any number of private/corporate starports providing any number of services to a restricted clientele.

Bill,

Excellent post, but I disagree with this one part. IIRC, Imperium member worlds are required to provide a minimum starport as part of the deal. (2) Even if it's just a reasonably flat and marked piece of bedrock (code E). This is a border area, so maybe this world was newly admitted to the Imperium and a starport hasn't been built yet. Or something happened to the old one.

I don't think the Imperium would allow private spaceports without at least some appearance of compliance to the law. Of course, this doesn't rule out secret spaceports. They just won't like it when they find out. Maybe there's a seed in there.

Perhaps they were once a higher tech society but a faction of anti technologists took power due to a disaster caused by technology gone awry. Even if this group had a short reign and is now replaced, the destruction they did to the technology infrastructure will not be easily undone.

Cosmic,

And after they were replaced, they would be invited to take a short stroll on the surface, sans Vacc Suit. I think, IMTU, I'll make Radical Luddism a capital crime on vacuum worlds. Preferring the perceived safety of low tech in the wake of a high tech disaster is one thing, but smashing the air-scrubbers is quite another.

I joke with you, of course. I realize you didn't mean they literally wrecked all the machinery, safety be damned. (Or did you?) I just couldn't resist. Good seed there, too.

Perhaps due to a treaty they are no longer allowed to have the high tech capabilities.

I think such an interdiction would show in the travel code. I might be wrong.

Perhaps the local resources were depleated. Factories were converted, disassembled, or fell into disrepair.

Doesn't explain the missing starport. Even if the facilities were no longer maintained, the field itself would remain for code E.

Perhaps they were once a higher tech society but a war destroyed their manufacturing capabilities.

Bingo! This scenario has very high plausibility, IMHO. Violence in the TU could probably explain a lot of high pop/low TL vacuum worlds. As long as the pop levels aren't extremely high, one can always say "Well, the population here used to be ten times this much before the war came. Now we're just barely hanging on, trying to rebuild our domes. Thank Heaven we had these caves." Even explains the starport code. Crater the field really good and you get code X.

All that being said...

It's not how it got started that's the problem, it's how they survive.

...back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

1. Although it's getting a little math heavy ATM. And, I ashamedly admit, my math skills aren't as developed as they should be.
2. This world probably isn't the only exception, haven't looked too hard, but this rule would seem to require the others to have an explanation too.

 

[rancke]

NIIRC, Imperium member worlds are required to provide a minimum starport as part of the deal. (2) Even if it's just a reasonably flat and marked piece of bedrock (code E). This is a border area, so maybe this world was newly admitted to the Imperium and a starport hasn't been built yet. Or something happened to the old one.

I don't think the Imperium would allow private spaceports without at least some appearance of compliance to the law. Of course, this doesn't rule out secret spaceports. They just won't like it when they find out. Maybe there's a seed in there.

I hadn't noticed that it didn't have any starport at all. Are you saying it is Starport Class X, but not interdicted? That is extremely odd. As you said, if it's an Imperial member world, there should be an Imperial starport. And considering how little it takes to establish a Class E starport (Find a spot of bare bedrock and place a radio beacon there (maybe paint a circle around it to mark the extrality line)), the explanation that it hasn't been built yet is extremely thin.

Bingo! This scenario has very high plausibility, IMHO. Violence in the TU could probably explain a lot of high pop/low TL vacuum worlds.

Not really. It would explain no population vacuum worlds with ruined domes, but to wreck things just enough to make people lose their original technology but stay alive while they geared down to low tech substitutes sounds extremely unlikely. Not "couldn't ever happen, not in a million years" unlikely, but "can count the number of times it has happened on one hand" unlikely.

As long as the pop levels aren't extremely high, one can always say "Well, the population here used to be ten times this much before the war came. Now we're just barely hanging on, trying to rebuild our domes. Thank Heaven we had these caves."

The problem is getting from 'most of the domes smashed, manufacturing capability destroyed, TL9 (or whatever) life support system failing' to 'caves sealed, TL4 life support system established and functioning' without going through 'no oxygen for the next couple of months' in between.

Even explains the starport code. Crater the field really good and you get code X.

For the several months it would take the Scouts to put in a replacement starport.


Hans

 

[aramis]

The use to warfare to justify low-TL worlds doesn't work for me, either.

However, a HT colony with no local maufacturing that decides to cut ties with the parent world, they might have only been able to establish a lower TL base before the rebellion.

Or a group of religious quasi-luddites picks it because it's low grade but readily worked ore... and decides to maintain their low tech lifestyle by choice, exporting people and ore for certain needs, but generally maintaining a low tech and stable lifestyle.

Another low tech possibility is a group that is doing it as a social experiment, totally free of religious overtones, and all they could afford was the tools needed for a stable TL4 base.

Yet another is an "abandoned colony"... motherworld pulled out, and a few renegades took over the physical space, maintaining only what they can do with the tools they brought with. In which case, the ecosphere is probably either run wild, or not yet stablized.

Each group is a different approach to import tech.

 

[splicer]

Not "couldn't ever happen, not in a million years" unlikely, but "can count the number of times it has happened on one hand" unlikely.

Dang. Oh well, perhaps that's better anyway. Brain twisters like this are good exercise.

I hadn't noticed that it didn't have any starport at all. Are you saying it is Starport Class X, but not interdicted? That is extremely odd. As you said, if it's an Imperial member world, there should be an Imperial starport. And considering how little it takes to establish a Class E starport (Find a spot of bare bedrock and place a radio beacon there (maybe paint a circle around it to mark the extrality line)), the explanation that it hasn't been built yet is extremely thin.

It is a puzzlement.

I was looking at travellermap.com and spotted a few more, so I grabbed the Ley Sector .sec data from http://dotclue.org/t20/ to make sure (sheesh, this is the opposite end of the Imperium from what I'm used to). There are these three gems:

Adigigi/Ley Sector 1523 X200441-8
New Konigsberg/Ley Sector 1733 X200735-4
Superior/Ley Sector 2314 X89A786-1

All are Imperial, none are interdicted -- circa 1000. Perhaps this was an oversight? I don't have Gateway to Destiny, but maybe there's something in there that covers these worlds. Adigigi and New Konigsberg are within 5 or 6 parsecs of the Imperial border and Superior is on the border, if that matters.

 

[Whipsnade]

Excellent post...

Splicer,

Thank you.

... but I disagree with this one part. IIRC, Imperium member worlds are required to provide a minimum starport as part of the deal.

Actually, Imperial worlds have no such requirements. You're most likely conflating Red Zones with everyday sysgen results. All you need for a Class X port was to roll a 12 on 2D6, no interdictions need apply.

Granted, I've toyed with a Class E minimal requirement IMTU, but there's no OTU requirement.

I don't think the Imperium would allow private spaceports without at least some appearance of compliance to the law.

Actually, they do all the time and with no need for secrecy. There's a very early JTAS adventure that features a corporate starport. The description of AL Morai in SMC explicitly states that company has private starports in a few of the systems it services.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

disagree with Bill about building TL 7+ goods at TL4... the rules specifically allow TL+2... so I can't argue that...

Aramis,

That's not what I'm suggesting. I suggesting some TL7+ ideas can be replicated by TL4 technique.

... but generally, these guys are going to be making do... a lot... but they will be pretty comfy doing just that.

Exactly. They aren't constrained by TL4 knowledge, they live in a polity that averages TL15 after all. They know that all sorts of things are possible and there's been thousands of years for higher tech ideas to be "retro-teched" to match lower tech abilities.

These people know much more than we did at TL4 and ~1900 CE. In the OTU, tech level only covers local manufacturing capabilities and not the limits of local knowledge.


Regards,
Bill

 

[splicer]

Actually, Imperial worlds have no such requirements. You're most likely conflating Red Zones with everyday sysgen results. All you need for a Class X port was to roll a 12 on 2D6, no interdictions need apply.

Bill,
I don't remember where I read of this law, and maybe I even misremembered. It might've been MegaTraveller or something. I haven't had that book for a looong time, so maybe someone can refresh my memory. From a quick glance, CT Starter Edition doesn't say anything. (1)

As to Red Zones and class X, I only speculated interdiction in regards to an outside agency imposing a tech level restriction. Hans noticed that I mentioned both separately and put 2 and 2 together, so I responded to that with a list of the 3 worlds in Ley Sector that have no starports and no interdictions. Although, skimming through the .sec data for Spinward Marches and Deneb sectors, I don't see any normal travel zones for planets with class X starports. 1 Amber Zone, and the rest are all Red Zone. Maybe there's a rule for that somewhere, too. I must admit, my CT:SE System Contents Table only has "12 on 2D6" = class X.

Actually, they do all the time and with no need for secrecy. There's a very early JTAS adventure that features a corporate starport. The description of AL Morai in SMC explicitly states that company has private starports in a few of the systems it services.

I think you misunderstood my point, but it is one that relies the veracity of an Imperial starport requirement. I don't think private starports, secret or not, are disallowed. Just that if there's an Imperial requirement for a minimum of class E, the gov't would take a dim view of private starports if nobody on that world bothered to at least comply with that minimum. Wouldn't even have to be anywhere useful, just somewhere. For the cost of some crappy land nobody wanted, a beacon, and a little paint(2), you would keep some Bwap or other from having a twitching fit.

Cheers

(1) Doh! Wait a minute, I just figured out why. CT:SE is all mechanics and no setting. So even if such a law exists in the OTU, it won't be mentioned there. Later products are another story.
(2) For that matter, CT:SE just says E is a "marked spot of bedrock."

 

[Max]

Why settle on an airless rock?

1) The most habitable planet in the system. The star is the one which the Prophet, blessed be her name, pointed The People to as our new home. It was a bit of a shock to find life here so difficult, with no atmosphere and all, but surely this is only a challenge the creators made to be sure we were ready to assume godhood. We have risen to that challenge and made our home here as we prepare to become gods ourselves as the prophet has shown us.

2) Anath D, or rather the lichen which produces anath D, only grows in a vacuum. Sure there are problems with using anath D, but unlike normal anti-aging drugs on anath D you can theoretically live forever. Of course exposure to the neutrino flux created by fusion drives will result in rapid aging of the taker of anath D (most stars & even things like radios and also emit too many neutrinos to be safe for and anath D user, so high tech is out and don't you think about landing a neutrino emitting spaceship on our planet) but we're talking true immortality here. Sure most people think being cut off from high tech and living in a vacuum isn't worth true immortality but we think it is.

3) Greed, pure and simple greed. Lanthanum is almost on the surface here, and almost pure too. Oh sure we could import technology, if we were willing to let some no good Johny-come-lately get some of our lanthanum without having pt in the hard work for it, but we are not going to be taken advantage of by some capitalist. It's our lanthanum and we're going to keep it. (also works for colony worlds and prison planets)

the possibilities are endless, just look at why in RL people do silly things and they can be used to explain why people in the TU also do silly things. If you're ever at a loss for silly reasons just check out the letters to the editor of a local paper or attend a local government meeting - most people are reasonable but there're enough cranks around to provide plenty of silliness.

 

[splicer]

If you're ever at a loss for silly reasons just check out the letters to the editor of a local paper or attend a local government meeting

:rofl: Ohhhhhh.. my kidneys. If only it wasn't true.