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Strange New Worlds

I am fleshing out some systems in Ley Sector-Diamond Prince Subsector for a campaign starting there soon. Running the UWPs through my own QBASIC system generator.
I know that canon UWP are randomly generated and throw up oddities which no one selling the product seems to check but the GM has deal with them sometimes, especially if they are relatively near the campaign's starting point.
New Konigsberg (1733) Im, seems a bit bizarre...
No Starport, Size 2, No atmosphere, No water, Tech level 4, but 3 million people live there!
We are TL way more than that and we couldn't support 3 million people living on the moon! How could, why would anyone else? If mining then why so many people and why so low tech, if not mining what else. Surely the TL 4 is a killer?
Anyone got any thoughts?
Thanks
John
 
Not humans?

Perhaps, being all human centric and such has blinded you to that the number in question is Population. How many sophonts are living in there. Maybe they are Imperial Citizens, but aren't human.
 
Thanks for your reply I am of course humanocentric, but what lifeform could exist in its millions on a planet without air and water at a low TL?
 
Imtu

IMTU

I assume based on a Loren editorial that the TL refers to manufacturing base. i.e. Somalia is TL 3-4 (or worse) yet TL7 weapons are for sale on the streets.

So presumably they have domes,but are stuck making clothes and minor items available for centuries importing all else. Worse the domes might be very hi-tech forcing them to rely on outside contractors.

Now suppose a contractor showed up dead and Halliburton LIC decides to pull out, domers not anxious for that. Seed!!!!!!!
 
I am fleshing out some systems in Ley Sector-Diamond Prince Subsector for a campaign starting there soon. Running the UWPs through my own QBASIC system generator.
I know that canon UWP are randomly generated and throw up oddities which no one selling the product seems to check but the GM has deal with them sometimes, especially if they are relatively near the campaign's starting point.
New Konigsberg (1733) Im, seems a bit bizarre...
No Starport, Size 2, No atmosphere, No water, Tech level 4, but 3 million people live there!
We are TL way more than that and we couldn't support 3 million people living on the moon! How could, why would anyone else? If mining then why so many people and why so low tech, if not mining what else. Surely the TL 4 is a killer?
Anyone got any thoughts?
Thanks
John

Penal colony? Forced labor for the mining of some hazardous or strategically important ore? An Alcatraz kind of thing?
 
I interpret such things in the same way as Easterner. TL 4 maybe all they can produce, they may have the knowledge to maintain the domes, tunnels, or what have you, and have to import the parts or jury rig things.

The governement code may give a clue as to why their TL is so low. Maybe they are under the thumb of another world. Maybe they are a former penal/exile colony, that was just left to it's own devices. Maybe things were once good and they slowly lost TL due to disease, warfare, religous revolution that required lower tech living, etc. There may be a lot of empty domes/caverns and parts are acquired by scavenging as well as trading. Maybe there is a high tech (TL 8) enclave.

I also wonder what TL it takes to sustain such a colony. Keeping the vacuum out can be accomplished with TL 4 no problem. Food: large green house/caverns. Light may be direct solar through glass, it would work with TL 4 glass and seals, it just wouldn't be pretty. They can also have space suits, that may look more like diving suits. ;)

Power I can see being there big problem. TL 4 is before nuclear but maybe they are a bit advanced there (I think you can get fission by TL 5). Maybe this is an odd moon with geothermal power. Maybe all the heat comes from a large amount of radioactives. Maybe this is why they are here, to mine these radioactives.

Let's also postulate sub-surface water, maybe locked in the rock as ice. So I can "water mines". I'd throw in some hydrocarbons as well for the chemical industry.

At TL4 or 5 I think you have rockets (V1 type) as well. I almost see a very 50's retro tech to this world, with the TL 7 and 8 peices they can maintain thrown in.

Given how hard it is going to be to keep a self sustaining food system on a vac world at TL 4, I'd imagine that a huge portion of the population would be engaged in the "food production" cycle, from water miners, to glass repair, to chemical manufacture (for sealants, fertilizer, etc.), to detailed waste product management. Recall by 1900 the fertilizer, chemical industry was well under way.


A comparison to present day IMO is a bit misleading. It's not our TL that prevents maintaining a Moon colony of 3 million, we could probably have done it at TL 7. It's the cost-benefit. It would take a huge investment in resources to lift the infrastructure to orbit and build a self-sustaining colony.


I personally love such wonky worlds. They spur me to think of ways to have them work. It's a great exercise in what if, or how can we do it. The very questions that lead me to love sci-fi. Crafting the explainations and the wonders that result is the fun.


Edit: Folks from this world should get an automatic Jack-of-all-Trades skill of 2. :D
 
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Penal colony? Forced labor for the mining of some hazardous or strategically important ore? An Alcatraz kind of thing?
It's not how it got started that's the problem, it's how they survive. You could have sealed underground caves (large caves!) with a carefully nutured ecosystem to provide food and breathable air, but how are you going to power it?


Hans
 
It's not how it got started that's the problem, it's how they survive. You could have sealed underground caves (large caves!) with a carefully nutured ecosystem to provide food and breathable air, but how are you going to power it?


Hans

I'm thinking nuclear. It's above TL 4, but TL 4 is an average.

Alternatively geothermal, maybe heat from radioactive decay if the planet is small, or a molten core if larger.

Maybe even some passive solar for lower power needs.

Maybe they have a starship they are tapping power from. A merchantman that vanished in this sub-sector years ago. Folks were always wondering how they solved their power problem, especially since orders for the parts to fix their ancient fission plant dropped dramatically.
 
TL4 you get solar boilers, reasonable steel, good glass, early polymers, early electricity... and possibly even 10% eff. solar panels.

everthing needed to transmit energy down to the deep site caves.
 
TL4 you get solar boilers, reasonable steel, good glass, early polymers, early electricity... and possibly even 10% eff. solar panels.

everthing needed to transmit energy down to the deep site caves.
In a form that's able to power photosynthesis? Tell me more. That could be a cool setting.

It would also be a singular setting. I mean, you wouldn't expect to find two such societies in Charted Space, would you?


Hans
 
In a form that's able to power photosynthesis? Tell me more. That could be a cool setting.

It would also be a singular setting. I mean, you wouldn't expect to find two such societies in Charted Space, would you?


Hans

I'd expect one or two per sector, to be honest...

the surface has large solar boilers generating electricity; additionally, big blocks of glass solar panels feed to huge copper cables. By night, those same boilers become radiators. Plus additional radiators.

Flourescent & incandescent lights are doable at TL 4, especially, with vacuum access. So are arc lamps. Big, hot, dangerous things. Incandescent lights are great for plants.

Also doable are big glass transmission rods... thing 20-30cm diam of drop-forged glass rod, mirrored on the sides, and fixed into channels to the surface. At the surface, solar energy is focused on one end by mirror; in the grow room, it hits a diffuser end...

Steam heat, electric light, and life by half-light. They would probably never see full daylight; daylight would probably be about 3x the lumens/cm2 of their "bright light". Big electric fans. Sewer treatment by hydrolysis.

Think Space 1889, sans ether.
 
New Konigsberg (1733) Im, seems a bit bizarre... No Starport, Size 2, No atmosphere, No water, Tech level 4, but 3 million people live there! We are TL way more than that and we couldn't support 3 million people living on the moon! How could, why would anyone else? If mining then why so many people and why so low tech, if not mining what else. Surely the TL 4 is a killer?


John,

You've confused tech level as presented in the rules with tech level as used in the setting. TL4 in the OTU setting is somewhat different from TL4 in the basic rules. (To be fair, companies from GDW to Mongoose have failed to simply and coherently explain that.)

TL4 as described in LBB:3 rules is roughly "Coal Age", adding machines, telephones, no aircraft, no radio, etc. You can't imagine how a 1900s world can live on the Moon because you've confused Coal Age knowledge with Coal Age technique. That's because you're unconsciously assuming that a TL4 rating in the setting equate both knowledge and technique. Nothing could be farther from the truth however.

Those people in the New Konigsberg system aren't isolated from the Imperium at large, they're not interdicted and they're not a "lost colony" no one knows about. They know about and they regularly deal with people who know about jump drives, fusion power, quantum computing, robots, and everything other jot and tittle that is part of a TL15 society. What they don't have are the local techniques to produce those things. They've TL15 knowledge and TL4 techniques.

Knowing is half the battle. Knowing or developing an idea usually requires a higher tech level than employing the same idea. There's a recent "retro-tech" thread here that discusses this. As others have pointed out, with TL4 techniques the people of New Konigsberg can use higher tech knowledge to produce fission power plants, solar boilers, and hundreds of other things we can't even imagine.

These are not a 19th Century people attempting to live on the Moon with naught but 19th Century knowledge. These are a 57th Century people living on the Moon with 57th Century knowledge and 19th Century techniques. What's more, the people's of the OTU have had thousands of years of experience with "retro-teching" high TL ideas to lower TL techniques. Adding to the TL nuances here, imported small amounts of TL15 technology can be used as a "TL multiplier". New Konigsberg may not have an entirely TL15 life support system, but certain components of that system could very well be manufactured above TL4.

Getting back to New Konigsberg specifically now. You also seem confused about the "lack" of a starport. What is actually lacking is a public starport whose services are available to anyone. The system could have any number of private/corporate starports providing any number of services to a restricted clientele.

Finally, as Hans so regularly and wisely points out; No System Is An Island. You should look at all the systems within 3 parsecs of so of New Konigsberg and look for an industrialized world or worlds. New Konigsberg needn't have a government code of 6 to be a de facto economic colony of a nearby world or worlds. That could also explain the "lack" of a starport, New Konigberg's real masters don't want the locals dealing with unauthorized traders.


Regards,
Bill
 
I'd expect one or two per sector, to be honest...

the surface has large solar boilers generating electricity; additionally, big blocks of glass solar panels feed to huge copper cables. By night, those same boilers become radiators. Plus additional radiators.

Flourescent & incandescent lights are doable at TL 4, especially, with vacuum access. So are arc lamps. Big, hot, dangerous things. Incandescent lights are great for plants.

Also doable are big glass transmission rods... thing 20-30cm diam of drop-forged glass rod, mirrored on the sides, and fixed into channels to the surface. At the surface, solar energy is focused on one end by mirror; in the grow room, it hits a diffuser end...

Steam heat, electric light, and life by half-light. They would probably never see full daylight; daylight would probably be about 3x the lumens/cm2 of their "bright light". Big electric fans. Sewer treatment by hydrolysis.

Think Space 1889, sans ether.

I rather like this. I'd maybe combine it with they choose this way of life. They are the Amish of the 57th century. Maybe far from being a harsh life, it is a "simple" one of hard work using tools that don't mess with quantum mechanics or relativity.
 
In a form that's able to power photosynthesis? Tell me more. That could be a cool setting.
Also doable are big glass transmission rods... thing 20-30cm diam of drop-forged glass rod, mirrored on the sides, and fixed into channels to the surface. At the surface, solar energy is focused on one end by mirror; in the grow room, it hits a diffuser end...

IRL there is product called a light tube, similar to this but without the glass rods. Basically it's highly polished ductwork. Might be easier to manufacture, but probably less efficient at light tranmission. Maybe not. I'm not an optical physics expert. Glass rods would have the benefit of not having to make sure the ducts were sealed against vacuum. Even so, the entire duct wouldn't need to be sealed, only the bottom ends. (1)

Wikipedia has an article on light tubes which discusses these duct systems, as well as optical fiber and fluorescent polymer systems.

Come to think of it, a nifty addition to such a system might be an large array of mirrors on the surface to focus more light towards the rods or tube ends. These could be "solar tracking" at low tech levels with a well-calibrated clockwork mechanism.

1. Not the very end, that would be irresponsible. Probably need a few failsafe seals toward the bottom. Better yet, Aramis' glass rods would be useful at the bottoms in this regard.
 
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Come to think of it, a nifty addition to such a system might be an large array of mirrors on the surface to focus more light towards the rods or tube ends. These could be "solar tracking" at low tech levels with a well-calibrated clockwork mechanism.
 
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Fungus farming. Human waste product produces food for the fungus, the fungus gives off oxygen and is edible. I'd make them akin to the Morlocks in the vein of H.G. Wells.
 
You guys are amazing!

Thanks for all who contributed so far to the thread. There are loads of ideas here to help me and others deal with what is a fairly common issue I am sure. Once again the community delivers the goods, particularly thanks to Whipsnade for the clarification of the TL issue.
God Bless
John <><
 
I'd expect one or two per sector, to be honest...
Really? You'd expect that on about 1 world in 200, someone with TL9+ would come along and set up a colony, whereupon historical chance would leave the colony cut off from its parent society and regressing technologically, albeit slowly enough for them to replace their original TL9+ life support system with a (presumably totally different) TL4 life support system before the old one failed and killed them all?

the surface has large solar boilers generating electricity; additionally, big blocks of glass solar panels feed to huge copper cables. By night, those same boilers become radiators. Plus additional radiators.

Flourescent & incandescent lights are doable at TL 4, especially, with vacuum access. So are arc lamps. Big, hot, dangerous things. Incandescent lights are great for plants.

Also doable are big glass transmission rods... thing 20-30cm diam of drop-forged glass rod, mirrored on the sides, and fixed into channels to the surface. At the surface, solar energy is focused on one end by mirror; in the grow room, it hits a diffuser end...

Steam heat, electric light, and life by half-light. They would probably never see full daylight; daylight would probably be about 3x the lumens/cm2 of their "bright light". Big electric fans. Sewer treatment by hydrolysis.

Think Space 1889, sans ether.
Oh, I do, I do.

Tell me, what would be the cost, in man-hours, for a society to build and maintain solar boilers, big drop forged glass transmission rods, dig the channels, etc., all in addition to the normal infrastructure costs of a society on a world with breathable atmosphere?



Hans
 
Perhaps they were once a higher tech society but a faction of anti technologists took power due to a disaster caused by technology gone awry. Even if this group had a short reign and is now replaced, the destruction they did to the technology infrastructure will not be easily undone.

Perhaps they were once a higher tech society but a war destroyed their manufactureing capabilities.

Perhaps due to a treaty they are no longer allowed to have the high tech capabilities.

Perhaps the local resources were depleated. Factories were converted, disasembled, or fell into disrepair.
 
Perhaps they are Amish or Old Believer.


The glass tubes don't have to be full length; as was pointed out, light ducting can do much of the work. The glass tubes, however, are the lens at the ends... why? Because multiple plugs are better than a single one safety-wise.

I disagree with Bill about building TL 7+ goods at TL4... the rules specifically allow TL+2... so I can't argue that... but generally, these guys are going to be making do... a lot... but they will be pretty comfy doing just that. With electrolysis, one can produce plenty of O2... and by thermolytic process, one can bind the hydrogen into hydrocarbons, which then get used in the life systems...

These guys can, in a pinch, probably build apollo style rovers and suits, since they know how, and even thinner suits using the wire systems currently being developed. (The next gen suits will be surprisingly thin... using wires and elastomers to maintain pressure, rather than atmosphere-on-skin. These don't require high tech; they require pure knowlege, and pure knowlege isn't tech restricted. The idea of a leather spacesuit isn't so far fetched anymore....)
 
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