Starship size
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daltoncalford
SOC-12
What do you consider a 'big ship'?
In LBB2, 5,000dtons was a very big ship.
In LBB5, 1,000,000 was a very big ship.
In TNE FF&S 1,000,000 was a very big ship
In T4 FF&S the formulas where given so the universe was the limit.......
I don't know if you can get bigger than the universe, but, well, we would need to talk to grandfather before we come to any hasty remarks.
best regards
Dalton
In LBB2, 5,000dtons was a very big ship.
In LBB5, 1,000,000 was a very big ship.
In TNE FF&S 1,000,000 was a very big ship
In T4 FF&S the formulas where given so the universe was the limit.......
I don't know if you can get bigger than the universe, but, well, we would need to talk to grandfather before we come to any hasty remarks.
best regards
Dalton
daltoncalford
SOC-12
I don't know.....I remember seeing that 400dton patrol cruiser and thinking that my poor single turret is being poor company for me.....
So, big is always relative(and yes, I have some big relatives, but diet and exercise is always an option).
regards
Dalton
So, big is always relative(and yes, I have some big relatives, but diet and exercise is always an option).
regards
Dalton
Big Ship Universe:
- Capital Vessels are 5000 Td+ in size. Canonical designs run to 750KTd
- PC scale ships range 100-600 Td
Small Ship universe:
- Capital Vessels are 800Td-3000Td
- Largest hull provided is 5000Td
- PC Scale ships range 100-600 Td.
"Moderate Universes" put the limits around 10-25KTd...
My ideal size limit is about TL*2000Td/Max G's
- Capital Vessels are 5000 Td+ in size. Canonical designs run to 750KTd
- PC scale ships range 100-600 Td
Small Ship universe:
- Capital Vessels are 800Td-3000Td
- Largest hull provided is 5000Td
- PC Scale ships range 100-600 Td.
"Moderate Universes" put the limits around 10-25KTd...
My ideal size limit is about TL*2000Td/Max G's
P
Pickles
Guest
Ok, how about this:
1. What will be the biggest ship in T5?
2. What will be the biggest ship likely to be encountered in T5?
1. What will be the biggest ship in T5?
2. What will be the biggest ship likely to be encountered in T5?
Bromgrev asked the right question, and I don't know the answer. But, actually, I think we can all guess the answer with good probability:
(1) at least a million tons
(2) less than that
A third question would be:
3. what is the average ship size likely to be encountered?
To which I think the answer is:
(3) a few hundred tons
Kurt, T5 will support the Big Ship universe, no doubt in my mind. The Azhanti High Lightning "has to" exist.
On the other hand, I suspect the Big Fat Core Rulebook will be fairly agnostic (I'm using that term a lot nowadays....) about this, concentrating (as many Traveller Rulebooks have done) on ships within 400 tons of the Subsidized Merchant, and paying lip service to ships up to 5000 tons.
I further suspect there will be something like a Starships book, or a Technical Architecture of some kind, which will let us design larger craft.
(1) at least a million tons
(2) less than that
A third question would be:
3. what is the average ship size likely to be encountered?
To which I think the answer is:
(3) a few hundred tons
Kurt, T5 will support the Big Ship universe, no doubt in my mind. The Azhanti High Lightning "has to" exist.
On the other hand, I suspect the Big Fat Core Rulebook will be fairly agnostic (I'm using that term a lot nowadays....) about this, concentrating (as many Traveller Rulebooks have done) on ships within 400 tons of the Subsidized Merchant, and paying lip service to ships up to 5000 tons.
I further suspect there will be something like a Starships book, or a Technical Architecture of some kind, which will let us design larger craft.
jfetters
SOC-14 1K
Intersting topic - I was going to start something similar, as I had some questions on this based on the actual ship sizes, numbers and crew requirements.
I guess the big question for me (which I will readily admit is based on a lot of unknowns on my part), is this: Is the existence of a "Big Ship Universe" with fleets as detailed in "Fighting Ships" economically feasible?
I am trying to get a handle on how many types of the different squadrons are available in the Imperial Navy (for example, how many BatRons in a subsector fleet). According to the same supplement, the typical Battle Squadron consists of four battlships. Assuming that means one Dreadnaught and three light battleships, that makes a cost of 7 Trillion credits and 33,200 crewmembers per squadron on the Imperial level (interestingly, the crew requirements for the dreadnaught equal the total of the three smaller battleships) just for the battleships!
Seeing how this is just for one BatRon, not even taking into consideration the other types of squadrons in the fleets (or event the support ships in the squadron), can this work? The more I look at this, the more it seems that these > 100,000 ton vessels would be extremely rare - similar to Firefly, where the big navy ships were an occasional encounter.
I guess the big question for me (which I will readily admit is based on a lot of unknowns on my part), is this: Is the existence of a "Big Ship Universe" with fleets as detailed in "Fighting Ships" economically feasible?
I am trying to get a handle on how many types of the different squadrons are available in the Imperial Navy (for example, how many BatRons in a subsector fleet). According to the same supplement, the typical Battle Squadron consists of four battlships. Assuming that means one Dreadnaught and three light battleships, that makes a cost of 7 Trillion credits and 33,200 crewmembers per squadron on the Imperial level (interestingly, the crew requirements for the dreadnaught equal the total of the three smaller battleships) just for the battleships!
Seeing how this is just for one BatRon, not even taking into consideration the other types of squadrons in the fleets (or event the support ships in the squadron), can this work? The more I look at this, the more it seems that these > 100,000 ton vessels would be extremely rare - similar to Firefly, where the big navy ships were an occasional encounter.
It's extremely feasible. One of the discrepancies we used to argue about was that the canonical Imperial Navy described in Rebellion Sourcebook seemed to be quite a bit smaller than what should be possible to support with the naval budget that Striker implied for the Imperium.
Marc Miller 'solved' that argument by decanonizing Striker and Trillion Credit Squadron. However, he didn't substitute any new figures, so now we're reduced to looking at Real Life figures, and Real life figures suggest that the IN could easily be bigger than what RebS stated. (IMO not MM's smoothest move).
RebS says about 1,000 combat vessels (cruisers and above) per sector. If you interpret that as 1000 combat vessels per 16 subesectors, you get an average of 62.5 per regular fleet. This excludes IN auxiliaries, subsector navies, and planetary navies.
What supplement? Supplement 9 implies that squadrons tend to be eight ships of the same class plus support vessels (Though four and six ship squadrons no doubt occur on occasion).
There are 15 trillion people in the Imperium. Assume an average per capita Gross Product of 10,000 credits (this is set low), the total GP of the Imperium is 150,000 trillion credits, or 150,000,000,000 Megacredits. Imperial worlds have an average military spending of 3% of GP, or 4,500,000,000 Megacredits. Of this, 30% goes to the Imperium = 1,350,000,000 Megacredits. Note that this is specifically for military expenditure. If the Imperium also gets something to run its bureaucracy, that will be over and above this money.
You can maintain quite a decent number of battleships for 1,350 trillion credits.
Hans
A Tigress costs a little over a third of a trillion credits from new. Call it three trillion credits for an eight ship squadron. But you don't need to buy a new set every year. TrillionCredit Squadron says that it costs 10% of the original cost per year to maintain a starship. Analysis of Real World figures suggests that this isn't a bad figure (a little on the high side, but not bad). So a squadron of the biggest dreadnaughts the Imperium fields at the moment will cost it less than half a trillion credits per year to maintain.
If all 20,000 ships the Imperium has were Tigresses. they'd still only cost 7,500 TCr ( 56% of the 13,500 TCr above) to maintain.
Hans
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
A couple of questions I'd always wanted answered are:
how much does the IN spend on wages,
and
how much does it spend on ordnance?
Battery rounds of nuclear missiles are expensive.
how much does the IN spend on wages,
and
how much does it spend on ordnance?
Battery rounds of nuclear missiles are expensive.
You'll have to make some assumptions to answer that. The assumptions I use are:
a) For every man aboard a ship, the IN has three on the ground (trainees, support, administration, etc.).
b) The average cost of a man is Cr25,000 per year (this corresponds to a bit more that 75,000 US $ -- if anyone have any better figures to suggest, feel free).
If that is somewhere close to the truth, your aforementioned Tigress with a crew of 4,054 will cost a bit more than 400 Megacredits per year for wages. That's a little more than one thousandth of its cost, or a little more than one percent of its yearly maintenance budget.
Personnel costs are not going to be anywhere near the slice of the budget that it is for a present-day wet navy.
That's quite true, and I must confess that I've never done the figures. But I think there is room in the budget for ordnance too.
Hans
Actually, it costs 10% per year to maintain and operate a starship, including costs such as maintaining facilities; TCS just gives the total cost of the navy as 10% of the ship costs, which includes all sorts of things that not only aren't maintenance costs, they aren't even operating costs.
Of course, the maintenance cost on merchant ships in Traveller is 0.5%/year, and the total operating cost is typically under 1%/year; it's not clear why military ships would be that much more expensive (you can reasonably argue that the problem is the merchant ships, not the warships).
Actually, it costs 10% per year to maintain and operate a starship, including costs such as maintaining facilities; TCS just gives the total cost of the navy as 10% of the ship costs, which includes all sorts of things that not only aren't maintenance costs, they aren't even operating costs.
Of course, the maintenance cost on merchant ships in Traveller is 0.5%/year, and the total operating cost is typically under 1%/year; it's not clear why military ships would be that much more expensive (you can reasonably argue that the problem is the merchant ships, not the warships). </font>[/QUOTE]A nice generalization would be to put that 10% toward maintenance, maintenance installations, crew salaries, and resupply (including ordnance).
Actually, it costs 10% per year to maintain and operate a starship, including costs such as maintaining facilities; TCS just gives the total cost of the navy as 10% of the ship costs, which includes all sorts of things that not only aren't maintenance costs, they aren't even operating costs.</font>[/QUOTE]Well, yes, that's what I meant. Everything you need to run a navy capable of owning that number of ships, down to recruitment posters and pensions...
One major cost that I include in that 10% figure is peacetime replacement. Spend a quarter of the budget each year on building new ships and you can replace the whole navy in 40 years. But yes, 10% is a very high figure.
Hans
Plankowner
SOC-13
Well, the military does a lot more, uhm, hazardous work than merchants to. That would account for a large part of the extra 9%. Also, typically a merchant will do only what is necessary to stay spaceworthy. The military will spend extra money on things to maintain combat readiness.
Besides, everyone knows the military spends 750cr for a toilet seat, so ten times the cost of a civilian ship sounds about right to me.
Besides, everyone knows the military spends 750cr for a toilet seat, so ten times the cost of a civilian ship sounds about right to me.
Well to redirect to the first topic. What is needed then is an effort to scale down the OTU ships to fit the Proto Travller small ship ATU once T5 is issued as I doubt there will be any small ship universe materials. It makes sense, most of the small ship heretics will be old timers and other heretics. Here on COTI we have a good assortment of LBB2 style ships that fulfill the needs of just about anybody.
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