mbrinkhues
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Size of carried vehicles
- Thread starter mbrinkhues
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BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Once you account for the new armor added to them the Bradley comes in a little larger than the Marder, but they are equivalent size.
I never realized the Marder was that big.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
I think the GT rules are not allowing enough space for the exterior of the vehicles. Sticking the Marder in a box, which means it is in a drive off condition, with the antennas removed, it comes in at 5.1 tons. Granted there is wasted space between the tracks, around the turret and around the gun barrel but that is the minimum size box it can fit in without access to the vehicle. You can't really stack them any closer than that without a full disassembly and shipping the parts separately.
Giving access all around for boarding and maintenance. Say 1 meter on each side, 1 meter in front, 1 meter on top, and room to drop the ramp (call it 2m) in back, the Marder comes in at 15.8 tons. That is very tight space for more than simple maintenance. For example, you can't rotate the turret or break track in that space. I doubt you could even pull the pack. And that assumes that the vehicle is against the ship's skin so you can get it out of there without maneuvering.
BTW it doesn't fit on a standard height deck, which, if your space between decks is bulkheads this definitely wastes quite a bit more space.
Giving access all around for boarding and maintenance. Say 1 meter on each side, 1 meter in front, 1 meter on top, and room to drop the ramp (call it 2m) in back, the Marder comes in at 15.8 tons. That is very tight space for more than simple maintenance. For example, you can't rotate the turret or break track in that space. I doubt you could even pull the pack. And that assumes that the vehicle is against the ship's skin so you can get it out of there without maneuvering.
BTW it doesn't fit on a standard height deck, which, if your space between decks is bulkheads this definitely wastes quite a bit more space.
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
Our Panzergrenadieres stored them with about 20cm space between them, access was over the front glacis to the drivers hatch. If stored under a roof (open front) you could not even get to the turret hatch. Antennas where not fixed (neither where the 20mm or MG barrels)
Any maintenance called for driving the beast out of row and into a maintenance shack or another free place
Same with the Leopards and M48s (okay, the later mostly stood in the maintenance hall anyway) and all the other vehicles. I had to either get a driver to drive the 2to I was checking out of the shack and back daily during a 2 years check
So if you skip the "can maintain them where they stand" part, the GT rules come out quite close, coming in at 4.5dtons of hangar space.
I think the size difference is in the detail levels of the construction systems. TNE's FFS and GT's system are very "detail rich" (and complex) where CT/MT/T20 (and StarCruiser) are "lump it together" systems that are easier to use but add a lot of stuff that other systems handle seperatly. I.e Maintenance gear/workspace comes seperate in GT and TNE
Guess the best solution for GT/TNE would be:
</font>
Any maintenance called for driving the beast out of row and into a maintenance shack or another free place
Same with the Leopards and M48s (okay, the later mostly stood in the maintenance hall anyway) and all the other vehicles. I had to either get a driver to drive the 2to I was checking out of the shack and back daily during a 2 years check
So if you skip the "can maintain them where they stand" part, the GT rules come out quite close, coming in at 4.5dtons of hangar space.
I think the size difference is in the detail levels of the construction systems. TNE's FFS and GT's system are very "detail rich" (and complex) where CT/MT/T20 (and StarCruiser) are "lump it together" systems that are easier to use but add a lot of stuff that other systems handle seperatly. I.e Maintenance gear/workspace comes seperate in GT and TNE
Guess the best solution for GT/TNE would be:
</font>
- Use vehicle volume as is</font>
- Use storage rules as is</font>
- If you want to do maintenance, add a shop and at least a set of hangar space (possible two) per vehicle that can be simultaniously maintained</font>
- Add some space for spare parts</font>
- Always make sure to mount gearbox the right way</font>
- Always open maintenance door before driving out tank</font>
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
And that was the SMALL one. You should see the Marder 2. This 41to beauty was a good deal bigger. Rumors had the series variant with at least a TRIGAT-MR "armored" launcher (Bradley Style) and some with a STINGER launcher opposite that.Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Once you account for the new armor added to them the Bradley comes in a little larger than the Marder, but they are equivalent size.I never realized the Marder was that big.
When they delivered the beast to WTS Koblenz I had the luck to be there and got a chance to crawl all over/through it. Damn, couldn't they wait another decade or five with re-unification
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
I guess allot would depend on deployment plans, more so that maintenance. Yes you could park them one place and maintain them elsewhere, (With driving space to get from parking to maintenance.) An important consideration with Grav vehicles is how do you move them aboard ship. (Does a Grav vehicle and Artifical Gravity work together?)
When we parked vehicles in the US Army we had enough space around them for routine maintenance and could load up before moving the vehicle. We couldn't do things like break track in the parking space, but everything else, like inspect the drive train, check the fluids, etc. you could do in the parking space.
On a Mercenary ship, or a military vessel where the vehicle needs to be capable of rapid deployment from the carrying vessel, you will want to be able to load them all at once where they stand. And giving them a little more space around them will save lots of time. While space is at a premium, rapid deployment is also important. You don't want to have to assemble the vehicle and load it after you land it in a hot LZ.
When we parked vehicles in the US Army we had enough space around them for routine maintenance and could load up before moving the vehicle. We couldn't do things like break track in the parking space, but everything else, like inspect the drive train, check the fluids, etc. you could do in the parking space.
On a Mercenary ship, or a military vessel where the vehicle needs to be capable of rapid deployment from the carrying vessel, you will want to be able to load them all at once where they stand. And giving them a little more space around them will save lots of time. While space is at a premium, rapid deployment is also important. You don't want to have to assemble the vehicle and load it after you land it in a hot LZ.
Scott Martin
SOC-13
10 tons / dTon in both TNE and T4, up to ($insane tons)/dTon for MT if you count the armour carried by any MT military vessel.
Where is the 5 tons / dTon value used? I'm guessing CT or GT, but I really don't know.
Scott Martin
Where is the 5 tons / dTon value used? I'm guessing CT or GT, but I really don't know.
Scott Martin
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
I don't think it's CT Scott. CT implies that cargo is equal in mass and volume, as in 1dton of cargo weighs 1ton.
As for vehicles in CT, it's unclear at best. The Air/Raft for example is described as a 4ton vehicle, capable of carrying 4 persons AND 4tons of cargo. There's clearly some mixing of concepts and/or errata there. But given the implied cargo mass=displacement I'd say CT probably expects vehicle mass=displacement too. Is it right? Not really, but it is easy.
As for vehicles in CT, it's unclear at best. The Air/Raft for example is described as a 4ton vehicle, capable of carrying 4 persons AND 4tons of cargo. There's clearly some mixing of concepts and/or errata there. But given the implied cargo mass=displacement I'd say CT probably expects vehicle mass=displacement too. Is it right? Not really, but it is easy.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
In CT/MT/T20 there is only a loose correlation between mass and volume. Further Mass has very little meaning in CT, MT and T20. It is mentioned in MT but not really in any real terms in CT or T20. I guess when you have counter gravity technology, mass doesn't mean much.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Since Steel works out to 7.85 tons per cubic meter or 105.975 tons per 13.5 cubic meters (1Dton). Water is 1 ton per cubic meter or 13.5 tons per DTon. (An average human is about the same density as water.)
What are you measuring?
A register ton is a unit of volume (Either 100 or 40 cubic feet.) and has no correlation with mass. (And yes a Register Ton may equal .21 Dtons but it could also equal .084 DTons.)
FYI 1 DTon = 1 Metric Ton of Hydrogen. (By definition.)
What are you measuring?
A register ton is a unit of volume (Either 100 or 40 cubic feet.) and has no correlation with mass. (And yes a Register Ton may equal .21 Dtons but it could also equal .084 DTons.)
FYI 1 DTon = 1 Metric Ton of Hydrogen. (By definition.)
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
I'm not talking about vehicle volume, I'm talking about starship volume. For starships, it's clear that displacement is equal to the amount of stuff inside the hull.
Based on how the Astrin for GT was designed. It has modest armor (it can be penetrated by an FGMP), unimpressive agility, and a relatively light weapon. It's a reasonable argument that the Astrin in GT is a different vehicle than the Astrin in CT; a version designed for high intensity combat would either be significantly bigger or carry significantly fewer people.</font>[/QUOTE]Well then the Astrin is definitely a different vehicle than in other versions of Traveller. In CT/MT/T20 (TNE and T4 shouldn't really have Astrins as they hadn't been invented by T4 and they are rare museum pieces in TNE) they stand up to virtually all infantry weapons. Is it also unarmed? With Battledress and Grav-Belts what is the point of an APC that doesn't protect infantry better than their body armor? One more reason for me to stay away from GT.
Nah. The GT Astrin is about 2 dtons basic volume, and takes up about 4 dtons on board a ship. </font>[/QUOTE]Not the same volume quoted before. And you already said it isn't the same vehicle. So comparing the OTU Astrin to the GT Astrin is a waste of time as they don't correlate.
Well, the Astrin is impervious to infantry weapons other than FGMPs and fairly hefty missiles. It's still lightly armored by IFV standards (in Striker terms, it's approximately armor 43 on the front, 35 on other faces). Its weapons are similarly modest.
An Astrin is faster and better protected than battledress with a grav belt. It's just not armed or armored to tank levels.
IMHO dtons are a convention to approximate most volumes in a ship. It was not originally intended to be taken literally. The more "granular" systems like MT fail because they fail to take into account changing proportions. That is, putting 1000 tons of armor on a 10,000 ton ship is much thicker than putting ten tons on a 100 ton ship (square-cube law). Likewise 10% armor on a wedge provides much less protection than 10% on a sphere of the same size. In CT or HG this is forgivable, because the systems are pretty approximate. In MT or TNG it is unforgivable because these design systems pretend to be more "precise."
I use CT rules, where all volumes are 14 m3 per dton. But I assume that this is an approximation, not an absolute. The single biggest homogenous volume in most designs are the LHyd tanks, so as a rough measure of size dtons makes sense. You can also use 4.5 m2 deck area as an estimate of what the deck loading for 1 ton cargo or load should be. I figure a Soviet BMP-1 IFV will take up 7x3m, or 21 m2 deck space. That is 4.6 dton, where-as it actually masses 14 tons. That means you have to space them out and allow 65 m2 per vehicle, or the concentrated weight will break the deck. If you want to build a special dock to hold the BMP in less space, the extra volume is deleted fromthe deckplans.
BTW, that GT IFV sounds like the BMP-3 with a 100mm gun. The Merkava was originally thought to have room for a fire team of dismounts(4 men) but it now appears the most it can carry are 1-2 with discomfort and sacrificing ammo. It is rarely used that way.
I use CT rules, where all volumes are 14 m3 per dton. But I assume that this is an approximation, not an absolute. The single biggest homogenous volume in most designs are the LHyd tanks, so as a rough measure of size dtons makes sense. You can also use 4.5 m2 deck area as an estimate of what the deck loading for 1 ton cargo or load should be. I figure a Soviet BMP-1 IFV will take up 7x3m, or 21 m2 deck space. That is 4.6 dton, where-as it actually masses 14 tons. That means you have to space them out and allow 65 m2 per vehicle, or the concentrated weight will break the deck. If you want to build a special dock to hold the BMP in less space, the extra volume is deleted fromthe deckplans.
BTW, that GT IFV sounds like the BMP-3 with a 100mm gun. The Merkava was originally thought to have room for a fire team of dismounts(4 men) but it now appears the most it can carry are 1-2 with discomfort and sacrificing ammo. It is rarely used that way.
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
From GT Ground Forces:
Astrin APC
2.1dtons (7x7x28ft is close (2.75dton)), 15.5tons loaded.
Carries 8 dismounts and 3 crew in individual seats
Armed with a 10MJ Rapid Fire Fusion Gun and a 4mm VRF Gaus Gun in a small turret
Armored with DR1000 across the front, DR550 other faces (1250/800 agaínst Plasma/Fusion guns, 2000/1100 against HEAT)
Battle Dress is DR400 body, The 10MJ RF of the Astrin produces a maximum damage of 1500, the FGMP-14 produces a maximum of 960 so the Vehicle is always proof against FGMP, most of the time proof against itself acros the front (Same against light missiles) and dies if he meets a tank, any tank
The TNE Astrin (Still in mass-use in the Regency) has similar weapons loadout, uses 2+10 for crew.
Astrin APC
2.1dtons (7x7x28ft is close (2.75dton)), 15.5tons loaded.
Carries 8 dismounts and 3 crew in individual seats
Armed with a 10MJ Rapid Fire Fusion Gun and a 4mm VRF Gaus Gun in a small turret
Armored with DR1000 across the front, DR550 other faces (1250/800 agaínst Plasma/Fusion guns, 2000/1100 against HEAT)
Battle Dress is DR400 body, The 10MJ RF of the Astrin produces a maximum damage of 1500, the FGMP-14 produces a maximum of 960 so the Vehicle is always proof against FGMP, most of the time proof against itself acros the front (Same against light missiles) and dies if he meets a tank, any tank
The TNE Astrin (Still in mass-use in the Regency) has similar weapons loadout, uses 2+10 for crew.
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
For my own convenience, way back in about 1980, I pondered the mass/volume dilemma posed by CT and came up with a solution that has worked for me ever since. It's not perfect, but it is simple - the essence of CT!
I simply figured that starships, for structural reasons, are probably about the same density as terrestrial submarines - 1 tonne per cubic metre.
This allows them to enter an atmosphere without blowing about in the wind, and land in a body of water to refuel without sinking. It gives a mass of 14 tonnes per dton. (I like SI units).
That 4dton air raft could therefore weigh up to 56 tonnes and can easily carry 4 persons and 4 tonnes of cargo. (Striker design limitations would make it fall far short of 56 tonnes).
Similarly, the standard 2dton ground car housing (lock-up garage equivalent) can contain anything from a plastic-bodied open sports car to a 28 tonne armoured scout car.
Very dense vehicles would need a larger dton volume to park in, and hence perhaps may be worked on in situ. Otherwise, if you want a workshop, you add one.
Just my 2Cr.
I simply figured that starships, for structural reasons, are probably about the same density as terrestrial submarines - 1 tonne per cubic metre.
This allows them to enter an atmosphere without blowing about in the wind, and land in a body of water to refuel without sinking. It gives a mass of 14 tonnes per dton. (I like SI units).
That 4dton air raft could therefore weigh up to 56 tonnes and can easily carry 4 persons and 4 tonnes of cargo. (Striker design limitations would make it fall far short of 56 tonnes).
Similarly, the standard 2dton ground car housing (lock-up garage equivalent) can contain anything from a plastic-bodied open sports car to a 28 tonne armoured scout car.
Very dense vehicles would need a larger dton volume to park in, and hence perhaps may be worked on in situ. Otherwise, if you want a workshop, you add one.
Just my 2Cr.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Even if you wanted to count the slope on all sides, unless you wish to assemble them after offloading them, (Using the equivalent of a forklift to off load them and then install major components like the turret, forget about a hot LZ.) but you are going to maintain them elsewhere and you don't mind all the dings and dents from parking them too close together or too close to a wall, you are still going to need a minimum of over 4 tons per 2.1 ton APC (Using the GT numbers and your dimensions). That assumes that your APCs are parked paint to paint to wall and right against the exterior hatch. The only access is from the top or the bottom, if there are hatches there, and if it isn't on the row closest to the door you aren't going to move it anyway. (Forget about loading it and maintaining it, you would be hard pressed to even check the oil.)
Packing them in like that you might as well leave them home. The fight will be over before you can get them off the ship, maintained, fueled and loaded.
Packing them in like that you might as well leave them home. The fight will be over before you can get them off the ship, maintained, fueled and loaded.
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