MGT Only: Shooting a gun with laser sights? MgT2e+

[Enoki]

Well, when in doubt, Punt (pun intended)

The 1 or 2 gauge Punt gun.

 

[Rupert]

I think the +1 DM for using a Laser Sight is a fair bonus in terms of game mechanics. As others pointed out, there's myriad variables and factors involved in making an accurate shot. And laser and red-dot sights are mostly intended for CQB. Now, I will say, based on my own experience in Afghanistan, hitting a moving target even at 25m using a weapon that's kitted out with the latest bells and whistles is a bit tricky in combat.

The military rifle I found the easiest to make snap shots with was the M16A1 with no bells and whistles. Light and handy, and it fitted me just right, so no time wasted getting the sights lined up.

Thinking about the thread's subject, a laser sight (and to some extent a red dot sight) largely gets around that issue of having the rifle fit well or having to practice a lot to make up for a poor fit. However, this is something that's well below the resolution of most games, and most players probably aren't interested in tracking which exact model (and what stock length, if variable, and so on) of rifle their characters have spent sufficient time on to avoid a snap-shot penalty.

 

[JimCook]

Red dots ( also green dots and circles and dots inside circles) are replacements for traditional iron sights. Iron sight are often not properly aligned by novice and even to a degree experienced shooter. With some, but not extensive, practice they are faster to put on target. This is why they are preferred in many action shooting sports. Long range shooting such as snipers prefer telescopic optics (scopes).

At short ranges, say under 100 meters, no one worries about wind let along the curvature of the earth. this is where red dots are useful. At medium ranges, 100 to 300 yards, most good shooters will take wind into account along with shooting up hill or downhill. Some will us red dots, but often combined with a magnifier (scope). At extreme ranges, kilometers, then there is a lengthy list of factors that often require using a hand held ballistic computer. This is the realm of very expensive scopes.

 

[aramis]

Have you ever shot a gun, or even a crossbow, with a laser sight in real life?

Firearm

Is there any real "aim" to it? Or are you just looking for a red dot?

Yes - you have to account for wind and bullet drop.

I would think that "red dot" would override any aiming you did. It does the aiming for you.

Then, someone with no training can shoot it.

So, should a laser sight give you a +6 or a +10 to your Gun Combat task roll?

Not nearly that high. Maybe +2 or +3.

 

[Janitor_Prime]

Have you ever shot a gun, or even a crossbow, with a laser sight in real life?

Is there any real "aim" to it? Or are you just looking for a red dot?

I would think that "red dot" would override any aiming you did. It does the aiming for you.

Then, someone with no training can shoot it.

So, should a laser sight give you a +6 or a +10 to your Gun Combat task roll?

I have used a M68 Close Combat Optic "Red Dot" sight on the M4 Carbine in a lovely little garden spot in 2003, 2004, 2005. The AN/PAQ is a combination visible laser, IR laser, and IR flashlight or torch for the Brits. The squad leader had one to designate targets. The squad leader would use the pressure switch taped to the forward stock and shine the laser onto a target the whole squad is going to fire upon such as an enemy machinegun. The visible laser is a nice deterrent to civilians to stop or stay out of an area. Shine a laser on one and they know a rifle is aimed at them personally and this is not confusing.

The Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight (ACOG) is different, though similar in principal. This also boresighted to the rifle and then adjusted to the shooter. This has a red circle or triangle you center mass on your target. Additionally, this has stadia lines and can be used for determining range and using the scope with holds for greater distance. Considered a medium range optic. This requires classroom instruction and a regular range time to be proficient.

The firer absolutely must aim properly with the M68 or the ACOG. This is a sight that is aligned with the barrel using a bore sight. The firer is looking through their own iron sights. The firer has to hold their rifle properly and aim through the sights.

The laser is just a laser pointer. Aligned with the bore with a boresight. The firer could point the laser at something and if the laser is on it, then that is where the bullet is going to go. This would be close range unless your shooting at something pretty large like a city bus or a locomotive.

So what bonuses would I give for these?
M68, +1 at point blank and short range. One action to aim.
ACOG, +1 at point blank, short, and medium. One action to aim. Requires Gun Combat - 0
Laser, +2 at point blank, +1 at short. +2 to a intimidation roll. One action to aim. For the untrained, I would reduce the -3 modifier to -1 for point blank.

Things change rapidly and I have been out now for 20 years.

 

[Diveguy]

Just to add a twist, that we haven't discussed yet - over the past few years the LPVO (low power variable optic) has come into play as well. This is in many ways (although there are some variations) a merger of the red dot and the magnified scopes we have previously discussed. For example, the one on my main setup is a 1-6 power with a dot I can adjust the brightness on (to include night vision only dimness) and a reticle marked in a way I can do basic size/range estimations.

No - it's not quite as simple and fast as my red dot only optics; nor is it as precision as my long range scope on a rifle intended for more distance. But, it gives a good balance for interior work up to about 300 meters - which, as Janitor noted, is where most work gets done. (And, for my personal preference, I absolutely prefer it to the ACOG). It also takes training to effectively use, particularly under stress - just like any of the newer technologies have over history.

To bring this back in Traveller terms - I would picture future improvements being more digitally interfaced, particularly if you get things like enhanced helmets etc. involved. Simpler to "use," as in built in software might do some of the work for you. Smaller/lighter is always a thing - the red dots we are using now are a significantly smaller footprint than what we had in 2005. And so on...

Or, arguably, something like what I currently have may still be pretty common. Easy to train troops of various tech levels with. Mechanical and reliable. And all that. After all, we are still selling rifles and pistols at TL 7/8 that aren't horribly different than TL 4 - and where you could easily train people up and down in that range.

 

[Badenov]

... After all, we are still selling rifles and pistols at TL 7/8 that aren't horribly different than TL 4 - and where you could easily train people up and down in that range.

The largest change between TL4 and TL7/8 firearms is the ammo rather than the gun. They've done more tricks with special rounds, hot loads, teflon, etc, that were not yet possible at the end of TL4. The big advance for TL4 was black powder to modern propellant, which itself was a huge change for ammo. Sort of. What actually happened, as I understand it, was the ammunition itself shrunk so that modern propellant performance was about the same as black powder performance, and the big change was lighter ammo that you could carry a lot more of and get (roughly) the performance you were used to.

It does make you wonder what happens to firearms, and ammo of course, to keep them relevant in TL15. In MgT1, modern ammo types like DSAP in a TL5 rifle can hurt people in anything short of Battle Dress (and can hurt them even in BD with a good roll). Ironically, the higher TL Advanced Combat Rifle family get a reduced benefit from DSAP ammo, so your best bet is to get that TL5 Garand out of your great (x137) grandpa's closet and put some higher TL ammo in it. Not your ideal combat choice, but it's only a whisker less effective than the TL10 accelerated sniper rifle.

Traveller, as a game, seems not to be written by infantry weapons experts (a conclusion I reach based on the omission from the Central Supply Catalog of items I would expect to see), so there's a lot of issues with bringing in RL items and expectations, but I would be wildly happy to see some sort of guide that is curated by subject matter experts as the knowledgable folks here have chimed in about modern optics. I would like to see how things play out in the game at that point.

 

[Janitor_Prime]

Diveguy and Badenov, I refer you to works by Kevin Dockery. One of the original authors of the Morrow Project and a non fiction writer on firearms too.