Badenov
SOC-13
So, I imagine it helps with basic aiming, but doesn't do much about the myriad of other complications that have been mentioned in this thread.
MGT Only: Shooting a gun with laser sights? MgT2e+
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Commander Truestar
SOC-14 1K
Because it does not eliminate aiming....
In fact, if you only look at the dot and fire, you will miss your aim point entirely.
And, over distances, you will miss your target entirely too
Bullets never travel in a straight line just because light does
At most engagement ranges, red dots improve accuracy and reduce "aiming". Get the dot on the target, take a snapshot. They're much faster than iron sights in that regard, and even telescopic sites (even low power). They're also easier to train.
Lasers can offer similar functionality. But you have to be well within the visual range of the laser (thus the note about being close range).
At most common engagement ranges, these are adequate. Combat is more about "minute of man" vs "minute of angle".
Get the red dot on the center of mass and pull the trigger. We're not talking 300m shots.
Because of low hills and trees, I'm pretty sure I can't even see something 13,000 feet (about 2.5 miles) away from my house.
That record-breaking shot was probably from a height.
This is spot on. There is a reason professionals constantly refresh on the fundamentals, not on the newest tools.
Badenov
SOC-13
So, the smartass side of me insists than you should not shoot guns or crossbows because it will damage them, and if they're usable at all, the sight is almost certainly out of alignment.
Unless you're trying to look cool.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
In Traveller, shotgun range coincidentally aligns with laser pointer.
The spread from shot isn't that great (a little less than 1" per yard for an open or modified choke, common on combat shotguns). A laser sight isn't a bad idea at all for a combat shotgun, though a torch (flashlight in US English) with a tightish beam will also do in dim light.
Commander Truestar
SOC-14 1K
Nope
If you read my earlier post, I listed a great number of things that change the "strike point"
That means the red dot is only indicating the "Aim point"
However, as a very basic example, If you put the red dot in "center mass" at 1,000 meters, your aim point can be off by "FEET" where you are adjusting your weapon by milometers.
If you then forget to consider the curve of the planet, then the "movement of your target" combined with "changes in target elevation" AND "bullet drop" can easily lead to you missing the target by as much as ten feet.
EDIT: The "Red dot" is not and never will be a "Strike point"
If you are a trained Sniper, you use the red dot as a point from which the strike point "Will Deviate"
Your training with all the factors and potential engagement ranges will be what a sniper uses in order to predict how the strike point will deviate from the Aim Point(Red Dot)
If you fail to consider those conditions I have mentioned in my previous posts, you can very easily miss your target
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
A professional trains with good iron sights as well as red dots et al.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
It's a waste. Shotguns are good to about 30 yards, at most, using something like #4 shot. Even a slug or 00 is good to about that range. Anything beyond that and it is largely luck that you hit the target. I've fired a lot of rounds through various models and can tell you that you aim mostly by eye along the barrel. With skeet (remember, you can't shoot these in the breeding season in Tennessee, it's against the law...) and a target lead you have to do it by eyeball.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
We use shotguns in Traveller, because there's a loop hole in the Law levels.
And, they can be improved.
And, they can be improved.
Yea, not "nope".
Again. Still.
You're talking about a completely different scenario.
Yes, all of that matters at 1000 meters.
Nobody, in the large composite of "everything", is shooting at 1000 meters. That's why we have the precision marksmen and their special kit (i.e. "sniper" rifles and optics, plus specialized training).
Your typical grunt boots on the ground soldier in combat is not worrying about spindrift.
The primary complaint about the M4 in Afghanistan is not about accuracy, it's about stopping power when the engagement ranges were hitting 500m. Something typical for Afghanistan with its large, empty, desert plains, hills and mountains.
Not so much in Falluja.
And, today, the concern is defeating body armor as it becomes more common.
The entire reason we have not had a replacement for the M4 in 60 years is that it's, most of the time, most situations, "good enough". Afghanistan is an outlier.
The modern rifle, with its new cartridge, and especially with its advanced "smart" optic will up the game of the random soldier at long range.
The 5.56, if you're in "long range" country, like Afghanistan, AND you zero the rifle at 200m, at 100, you get an 1+" rise. and 300m its 6-8" low.
Square up that dot at the center of a mans chest, and you have a lethal shot at all of those ranges. Not looking for the 10 ring here, looking for man down, make them stop shooting, send the medic.
And, of course, whatever range the soldier zeroes their rifle, they can always hold it high or low as they want. But dot on the chest, snap shot, 0-300m, it's gonna hit something vital.
"How do you shoot women. And children?" "You lead them less!" - FMJ
It won't change things nearly as much as it's being hyped up to do. Most soldiers can't see a man at that distance, and to use a good optic you still have to spot your target, and then tell the optic when it's on target. Most shooters just can't do that at 400m+ Hell, many can't at 300m. The correct weapons for engagements past 300m are the squad machineguns and grenade launchers, and the weapon systems that sit on the end of the squad's radio.
Also it's a heavy rifle with a lot of recoil. They're already talking a lower pressure (i.e. conventional pressure) round for training and general issue, which has all the disadvantages of the heavy ammo and rifle without the ballistic advantages. And as for the ballistics of the round - 7.62x51mm can deliver the same with the right bullet and powder choice, and at much lower cost.
This is just the ACR and the XM29 OICW programs all over again, except that this time someone's managed to push it through to being adopted.
Janitor_Prime
SOC-8
No one is using a laser or red dot as a sniper or designated marksman. Well, no one smart is using a laser or red dot beyond ranges you cannot read the targets name tag on their uniform.
The M68 Reflex sight is also called the "Close Combat Optic" put the red dot on center mass pull the trigger. The rifle/carbine iron sights are aligned through the "red dot" sight with the preference to use those. In combat, the target, not wanting to get hit, is visible briefly and often at very close distances. The M68 has to be installed using a bore sight and is aligned with the barrel. There is a x3 power optic that can be used with the M68. For the Support branches this means 25 to 50 meters with a red dot. For the Infantry and Cavalry could mean 50, 100, 200 for center mass shots.
The AN/PAQ-4 A/B/C/D etc is a laser aiming pointer. In close combat during night or inside structures / underground the operator is looking down the length of the rifle and where the laser shines is where the bullet hits. This is conversational distance, bayonet thrust distance close combat. In practical terms, no one uses the laser pointer this way. The laser pointer is used by leaders to designate targets for crew served weapons or the teams grenadier / SAW gunner. Other times, the lasers are used to designate targets for close air support. The laser is also used for intimidation in deteriorating situations with belligerent local civilians. This is also installed with a bore sight and aligned with the barrel.
Boondock
SOC-10
I think the +1 DM for using a Laser Sight is a fair bonus in terms of game mechanics. As others pointed out, there's myriad variables and factors involved in making an accurate shot. And laser and red-dot sights are mostly intended for CQB. Now, I will say, based on my own experience in Afghanistan, hitting a moving target even at 25m using a weapon that's kitted out with the latest bells and whistles is a bit tricky in combat.
I would give the reflex/red dot/laser sight a +1 for snapshots at Close range, but no bonus at all for aimed fire. (There may be a separate aimed fire bonus for a telescopic site, and a site can have both capabilities, but may take a an action to switch from one mode to another, perhaps taking account for the soldier cranking up the magnification on a variable zoom site).
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