Note that striker was post-81, and the rules for personal scale vs ships in s7 make bk4 weapons, even the rpz, pretty useless at ship scale.
Starships - Are We Bringing Enough Guns?
- Thread starter Diveguy
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HG'79 was the start of the Pn=Jn design requirement, and HG's jump drives were substantially smaller than those in LBB2.
(Edit: something something starship operators supplement, of which I lack a copy. Someone'll comment on it I'm sure.)
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Also, lbb2-81 required pn >= jn.
Yes. I've assumed this was to align with LBB5 (both), while not changing anything else about the formulae in LBB2 from '77 so as to maintain backward compatibility.
J-drive should be smaller; it isn't, but LBB2 power plants don't improve by TL so there's little reason to change that. 10Pn fuel requirement is unchanged from '77, just redefined as "4 weeks" (to align with LBB5) from "one trip" (of any duration) in '77. As in '77, LBB2 uses power plant fuel allocation as the tonnage constraint on maneuver capability (LBB5 used the maneuver drive and power plant tonnage directly for that).
Bk2 is roughly 2.5% per Jn and 1.5% per Pn, and 1% per Mn. The tables actually make it slightly better at larger tonnages...
I like Bk2 because of tons of system per hit.
I do wish MT had maintained Bk5 ship design (it's ratings compatible, but not design compatible.)
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
Exactly. In High Guard, you can build an "All or Nothing" battleship. That is, you max out the armor and other protection, mount a single spinal mount of the largest size that will fit, give it enough power plant to move and shoot. The result is that anything less than a higher end spinal mount has ZERO effect against it. Putting all those smaller turrets on a ship is a total waste of money.
Think of this design as the "Space Carrot" in STTOS.
And - FWIW - while this is certainly playing the mechanics right (and intelligently) - it just isn't the style of game I prefer... Which is why I stick to small-ship settings I suppose.Exactly. In High Guard, you can build an "All or Nothing" battleship. That is, you max out the armor and other protection, mount a single spinal mount of the largest size that will fit, give it enough power plant to move and shoot. The result is that anything less than a higher end spinal mount has ZERO effect against it. Putting all those smaller turrets on a ship is a total waste of money.
Think of this design as the "Space Carrot" in STTOS.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
That's what I do as well. I see big fleet actions as more of a wargame than an RPG.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
To be fair ... big fleet actions ARE a wargame (of the LBB A5 Trillion Credit Squadron variety!) rather than an RPG.
So quite affirmatively correct on both counts!
Badenov
SOC-13
So wait, I can't play a battlecruiser in this game?To be fair ... big fleet actions ARE a wargame (of the LBB A5 Trillion Credit Squadron variety!) rather than an RPG.
So quite affirmatively correct on both counts!
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Sure.
Outside of arbitrarily labelling, how a battlecruiser is defined ...
Outside of arbitrarily labelling, how a battlecruiser is defined ...
The smaller guns soak up weapon hits. If you've got a reasonably crit-proof ship that's useful.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Armor is relatively light, but compensated for by good screens and sandcasters, plus the ability to cripple most opponents before they can deliver much damage.
In theory, substitute a battlecruiser for a fast dreadnought.
In theory, substitute a battlecruiser for a fast dreadnought.
It depends on what you mean by 'battlecruiser'.
Is it the original cruiser-killer - a really big cruiser armed with battleship scale weapons, with cruiser speed and just enough armour to deal with cruiser weapons?
Or the later versions that were light, fast capital ships with lighter armament (but still battleship grade), and lighter protection (but still enough to handle lighter capital ship weapons - like those on simliar BCs)?
Or super-fast 'speed is armour' almost no protection and battleship guns of Fisher's old age?
Or the common SF 'battlecruiser' that's some sort of large cruiser/small battleship partway in-between them in size (as seen in Weber's Honor Harrington novels, among others)?
Or the 'hero ship' version that's got the firepower of a battleship, the speed of a cruiser, and while it has less armour than a battleship it somehow beats them? These are often actually a more advanced 'next generation' battleship, and so probably are really the equivalent of the 'fast battleships' of the late 1930s, vs the older capital ships of WWI and just after.
I don't think any really work in an optimised HG. Or rather, they do, but more armoured but slower battleship won't so there's nothing to contrast them with.
Some will work in other editions, though as with real life their cost-effectiveness is open to question, especially if the other side also has them.
Is it the original cruiser-killer - a really big cruiser armed with battleship scale weapons, with cruiser speed and just enough armour to deal with cruiser weapons?
Or the later versions that were light, fast capital ships with lighter armament (but still battleship grade), and lighter protection (but still enough to handle lighter capital ship weapons - like those on simliar BCs)?
Or super-fast 'speed is armour' almost no protection and battleship guns of Fisher's old age?
The above were all about the same displacement as a battleship, and often cost more.
Or the common SF 'battlecruiser' that's some sort of large cruiser/small battleship partway in-between them in size (as seen in Weber's Honor Harrington novels, among others)?
Of the above only Fisher's insane things were ever intended to be part of the line of battle - and his were supposed to be all of it because they couldn't function if they were tied to a formation of slower ships.
Or the 'hero ship' version that's got the firepower of a battleship, the speed of a cruiser, and while it has less armour than a battleship it somehow beats them? These are often actually a more advanced 'next generation' battleship, and so probably are really the equivalent of the 'fast battleships' of the late 1930s, vs the older capital ships of WWI and just after.
I don't think any really work in an optimised HG. Or rather, they do, but more armoured but slower battleship won't so there's nothing to contrast them with.
Some will work in other editions, though as with real life their cost-effectiveness is open to question, especially if the other side also has them.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
One aspect that most people don't know, or tend to overlook, is that first class armoured cruisers can be as large as concurrent battleships.
So, shouldn't be surprised that dreadnought armoured cruisers, and battlecruisers, can be as large as then current battleships.
So, shouldn't be surprised that dreadnought armoured cruisers, and battlecruisers, can be as large as then current battleships.
Black Vulmea
SOC-12
The idea of fitting starship turrets or small craft with autocannons, gatling guns, and VRF gauss guns has been around for about as long as I've been playing.
Point defense for ships and craft is handled by sand against lasers and to a lesser extent, per Mayday (p. 8), missiles; IMTU sandcasters can also be used to fire grapeshot canisters as anti-missile point defense.
As a fan of The Expanse, I'm certainly open to the idea of point defense cannons (PDCs) - the aforementioned autocannons or VRF gauss guns - and rail guns - mass drivers - as shipboard weapons but I haven't put the time in with Striker to make it work.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
The problem with ... ordnance launchers (missiles, sand, mass drivers, etc.) ... is that they leave "hazardous to navigation" DEBRIS in orbits. Once "shots fired" miss ... they don't Trideo Game Despawn™ from existence. Any physical objects that miss their targets, continue along their trajectory ... potentially becoming "captured by gravity fields" and orbiting other objects ... just WAITING to impact other craft at a later time. This means that any and all battles where ordnance (rather than Directed Energy Weapons) gets exchanged results in navigation hazards that persist until a cleanup crew can arrive and retrieve ALL of the expended (physical) ordnance.
Put enough ordnance exchanging fires into a "given volume" of space ... and you've got a Kessler Syndrome level cleanup on your hands.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
The way the rules were in HG, first you had to penetrate the ship's armor and such. Smaller guns couldn't do it so they couldn't generate damage. Hence why "all or nothing" worked. Again, it's like the STOS 'Space Carrot.'
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Close to dogfight range, and get initiative.
Then, use kinetic ordnance, and empty the magazines.
Then, use kinetic ordnance, and empty the magazines.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Every round fired:
- Hits its target (no misses!)
- Stays inside its target (no overpenetration!)
- Every target retains structural integrity (no parts of the hull separate or get blown off!)
- No debris/fragmentation showers result from any impacts! (none!)
Sounds legit.
Sure ... let's go with that plan.
Where are the antimatter-rich ordnance rounds stored, again?
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