Ship types in Gateway?

[graden1]

Originally posted by Commander Drax:
Hi Guys,

Just to join the discussion I would like to add that all A class starports are considered to have a minimum tech level of 10, irrespective of the local world's tech level, B class ports would have a minimum tech level of 9, and C class would have 8, D class would have 7, and E class a minumum of 6, which is as low as it goes.

I knew I had read about this somewhere; thanks for pointing that out. It was sitting on my bookshelf all along--I've got that book!

Originally posted by Commander Drax:
Armed forces like a technological advantage over their civilian counterparts, and can roughly be assumed to be at least one tech level higher than what is normal on their world. So a tech 10 world might support a tech 11 military. Other megatraveller rules also allow the creation of advanced technologies for research purposes (double all costs), again being one tech level higher than is normal, this would mean that the same tech 10 world with a tech 11 navy, might have a few tech 12 items representing the best of the best etc.

To conclude this a tech 10 world might have jump 1 ships freely available to merchants, jump 2 being the norm for the navy and the occasional jump 3 prototype if we follow the tech level charts.

In all things necessity is the mother of invention and gateway being a region of low astrographic density with worlds separated by common two to three parsec gulfs would see major investment by the polities there into either purchasing high tech shipping from the Imperium or developing it themselves, (stealing the information needed and developing the infrastructure needed to build it perhaps).

In MegaTraveller Journal 4, the Golden Age, adventure 'Lords of Thunder' had a jump 3 civilian ship (M class merchant) leaving Gateway for a trip to Sardis in the Megusard Corporate, the ship had Jump 3 capability and was implied to have been built in the Imperium and stuck to a regular though long route through neutral space on the 'Gateway to Sardis Run'.

Further I would also like to support the notion that much naval ship-building is done away from the civilian yards in Naval Basess.

Also there's no reason why nearby high tech worlds with sufficient infrastructure can't ship jump components and weaponry to neighbouring A class starports for assembly into hulls already built there. After all aircraft are very seldomly built at the airport, and usually in a factory hundreds of miles away.

Just my observations

All useful observations, and I'm glad you mentioned Lords of Thunder; that's the campaign I'm preparing to run.

Which brings us to an interesting point. I've been trying to decide what era to run it in. I could easily roll it back to the T20 default date, around 1000 Imperial (I think?) or leave it in the Rebellion era as written, around 1120.

Gateway to Destiny describes most of the Gateway sector government fleets as TL-A, but if I run the game in 1120, let's assume most of them devote some serious effort to improving their fleets. What would they look like after 120 years of "build-up"? Might J-2 eventually become the norm for military vessels, as Commander Drax suggested?

XO

 

[Commander Drax]

While I am thinking of it.

Does anyone fancy a ship-building contest.

We could start a new topic, and ask for entrants to submit their designs that could then be evaluated by other readers of the forum.

e.g. your design brief is to build a tech level 10 merchant as used by the Trindel Confederacy etc.

The other nice thing about having the design be non imperial is that other governments might have different rules for passage and transport costs e.g. per parsec as opposed to per jump. This increase in potentail revenue would draw imperial merchants into the area and thus provide high tech, high quality service to those worlds that cant provide it themselves.

 

[Thelor]

Very good idea Drax!
I have always been against the per Jump instead of per Parsec fees charged by starships.

It will make contracting higher jump capable ships more viable IMO.

 

[Commander Drax]

I agree, I've always thought the freight and transport rules published in the various rules sets unduly favoured jump 1 vessels, the result being that more expensive jump 2 and 3 ships were not economical, my take on this is that the per jump rule only applies to passage e.g. the time spent by a person in a stateroom/low berth for one week. Whereas freight is transported at Cr1000 per ton per parsec.

In all then a jump 3 voyage would cost Cr10,000 credits for a high passage ticket or Cr3,000 per 1 ton of freight.

This would neatly explain why most civilian merchants devote more interior space to their cargo holds than passenger accomodation, despite the fact that passengers are more profitable than freight at Cr2500 per ton for a high passage in a standard stateroom compared to the measely Cr1000 per ton of freight. Following real life economics most starships would be passenger liners with small cargo holds that are only present to hold consumables such as life support, and ready meals (for passengers and crew) along with passenger baggage. (That gives me an idea for a ship design...)

Because this is not the case, then it stands to reason that more money must be made from the hold than from passengers.

Beyond Imperial space I think the per parsec rule should apply, not per jump, though I do like my compromise as illustrated above.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Actually Drax, see Falkyn's description on his spread sheet and in the "What does this paragraph mean to you" thread for how much a higher Jump ship needs to charge for cargo to break even. Your solution works but the margins are still small. I still prefer to charge per Parsec across the board. Keeps the higher jump ships honest

and makes the Liner (Admittedly one of my favorite standard designs) financially possible.

Originally posted by Commander Drax:
I agree, I've always thought the freight and transport rules published in the various rules sets unduly favoured jump 1 vessels, the result being that more expensive jump 2 and 3 ships were not economical, my take on this is that the per jump rule only applies to passage e.g. the time spent by a person in a stateroom/low berth for one week. Whereas freight is transported at Cr1000 per ton per parsec.

In all then a jump 3 voyage would cost Cr10,000 credits for a high passage ticket or Cr3,000 per 1 ton of freight.

This would neatly explain why most civilian merchants devote more interior space to their cargo holds than passenger accomodation, despite the fact that passengers are more profitable than freight at Cr2500 per ton for a high passage in a standard stateroom compared to the measely Cr1000 per ton of freight. Following real life economics most starships would be passenger liners with small cargo holds that are only present to hold consumables such as life support, and ready meals (for passengers and crew) along with passenger baggage. (That gives me an idea for a ship design...)

Because this is not the case, then it stands to reason that more money must be made from the hold than from passengers.

Beyond Imperial space I think the per parsec rule should apply, not per jump, though I do like my compromise as illustrated above.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Your low tech ships and government ships will, fortunately/unfortunately be stuck with Jump-1, unless they import components or actual ships. Of course playing with enough TL12+ ships will give them the ability to eventually develope them themselves. (And raise their TL.)

To give you an example of this type of work, look at the Argentine Navy prior to the Falklands. The Pride of the fleet was the General Belgrano (A 40+ year old surplus USN Light Cruiser.) and the 25th de Mayo, a 40+ year old British Surplus Aircraft Carrier. Both were converted to local tech and upgraded but were still basically 40+ year old ships. (Most of the light combatants, Destroyers and Frigates and even subs were the same.)

 

[Liam Devlin]

Well!!! AN interesting dilemma of questions! Once again, the UWP rears its head and demands an answer--this time, based on astrography of the region, and the tech levels of the powers that be in Gateway Sector...

To be of some service---page 147 of the Gateway book: "each system in the gateway region is identified by its mainworld, and normally the UWP refers to this world. However, the UWP is just the merest beginning, a broad generalization of the broadest sort."

Meaning a lot of things, gentlemen--namely, don't take all of those numbers for granted!

IIRC Alphaaric is the highest tech level world in Gateway-(TL-F), and is homeworld to the Faar minor race. Yet ,"the Faar have no interest n building starships of their own" (page 98 on pdf)--yet we see an A-class port there. The population given is for the 9,000 some odd humans who dwell/ work there, not the Faar themselves! So who is making starships of TL-F quality and components there? HUMANS!

At Akeen, the 1 million inhabitants listed in the UWP are in the huge orbital A-class TL-D port named 'Sky'. Those are TL-D starships built there, or their components for sale! again, by HUMANS..Akeen technology is approximated to human tech planetside!.

Now interpreting Tech levels "straight across the board"... too simplistic. Lets look at the warlike Hochiken's Peoples Assembly:
The highest TL found on their worlds is TL-B, at Valkyr (1709), which also shares the highest Law level (E) with GRANTH (1601). Could it be, in rimward Valkyr, the rulers of this ironfisted government make jump drives, but not the starships themselves to prevent anyone from defecting by stealing a starship offworld? Say manufacture them here, and install them in any of the more secure A-class yards to corewards ie-SHANEYFELT [1904], Klavien [2003],Therinth [1501], or GUNTAR [1101]?
Another thing to consider of the UWP's--it is assumed that is the tech level the average citizen enjoys living under. So What if the TL-B enjoyed [at law E of course!]of the citizens of Valkyr is the"average"? Wouldn't the orbital starport's inhabitants enjoy a higher one? OF Course they would! But because they aren't the majority/ this goes unnoticed on the UWP!

Another thing we have seen, this in the EPIC adventure "Merchant Cruiser", the world targeted in the adventure for trade has a C-class starport, the non-aligned main world's primary one, yet in the adventure, it lists they have built their own TL-A SDB's--which all of us know requires a B-class shipyard, right? What if the world possesses several starports, being high population, right? Say it has six for example--five of them are Type C, one is type B. The more numerous one is counted, isn't it?
Or if said B-class port is on another planet in the same system--it isn't listed on the "mainworld's" UWP! You see?

Now I admit, making a strict TL-A Navy and commerce fleet for Gateway Sector would be a challenge--multiple J-1 tankages would be necessary. this would cut down on weapons, troops, and cargo tonnages. And Looking at a dispersed polity like the HPA, it would tend to slow down their expansion somewhat. With a lot of two and three system clusters, the coreward ones rather dispersed, it would be a chore to try to keep any sort of unity.
Hence I think the HPA keeps its J-2 technology for the military rather tightly controlled. And "Free Traders" don't exist within the HPA--that's a HPA state run commerce system!

Now looking at the THB's starship design pages, planets with TL-7 through F contribute components for starships in Traveller. Looking at some of the standard design sequences ships in there, I see a lot of power plants at TL-9.

Your next stellar polity--the Plavian league-threatened by the HPA to coreward of it:
It has four A-class yards with which to compete against the HPA's 5 with--Samuelson [2014/pop 700millions/ TL-A]; Bremen [1818/pop 9 millions/TL-A]; PLAVIS [2113/ pop 2 billions/TL-A]; and Tash [1513/ pop 400 millions/ TL-B].
--again, the higher technology exists, and is at Tash. They too can produce their own J-2 drives, and farm out th rest to the other four yards.

The Galian Trade Federation--Has one A-class yard, at 1220/ Gateway herself. TL-A, enjoyed by the average 6 million plus citizens. yet we know the GTF does heavy trade with the Imperium, and into Alpha Crucis Margin as well as the pirate scourged "Sardis Run" to the Megusard Corprate to trailing.
Here you can decide whether or not she imports all of her higher Jump drives/ powersystems/ computers, and weaponry or not. Certainly the HPA Valkyr model above can be translated to the GTF world of TAMERIJ [0430/ pop 4 billions/ TL-B]. After all, page 86 says Gateway's primary export is starships!

As for Messr Falkayn's postulation on Naval yards vs Civilian yards, I concur. Any world with a N Navy base has a seperate facility IMTU. C-class being the lowest class of port to maintain a navy base.

And as for Starmercs--one can always find them available in the Swanfei Free Worlds for hire! If you trust them, that is...<grin>

Looking at the TL's straight across the board, and some of the other worlds with higher tech within these polities, I have to go my route for MTU...ANy J-1 ships [even those with multiple tankage jumps] are going to be found working within the Gateway states, well escorted.

Outsourcing to the independent worlds of course, is an option..But there are few of those that can do what you need:
Alphaaric [1133] A996322-F 832 Xx
Akeen [2708]A66A620-D N Ni Wa Ak
Bem [3207] AADA330-C Ni 711 Xx
Banserda [3110] A512623-B Ni Ic 913 Xx
Grovelunda [3223] A439667-A 323 Xx
Vestra [2415] A23474B-A 402 Xx
Neopis [2020] A676789-A Ri 521 Xx
Far Portal [0130] A238546-A N 323 Xx
Caldwell [0332] A401654-A N Ic 323 Xx
DOVER [2423] A8999A6-9 Hi In 213 Xx
Trondelm [3137] A53A8A9-9 Wa 211 Xx
Emoress [3117] A66A779-9 Wa 410 Xx
Baker [0334] A876677-8 N 905 Xx
Inast [1210] A663669-7 N Po Ni 812 Xx

Whatever solution you decide upon, it falls to the imagination how to rationally explain it to your gamers and yourself. The UWP's are broad guidelines, that we've seen!

Sorry this took so long. Hope this helps somewhat.

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by Commander Drax:
While I am thinking of it.

Does anyone fancy a ship-building contest.

We could start a new topic, and ask for entrants to submit their designs that could then be evaluated by other readers of the forum.

e.g. your design brief is to build a tech level 10 merchant as used by the Trindel Confederacy etc.

Love to!

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Now looking at the THB's starship design pages, planets with TL-7 through F contribute components for starships in Traveller. Looking at some of the standard design sequences ships in there, I see a lot of power plants at TL-9.

That's because that's the lowest TL a fusion reactor becomes available, and the next improvement in reactors is at TL-13, which is a higher TL than most of the ships are supposed to be built at.

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Outsourcing to the independent worlds of course, is an option..But there are few of those that can do what you need:
Alphaaric [1133] A996322-F 832 Xx
Akeen [2708]A66A620-D N Ni Wa Ak
Bem [3207] AADA330-C Ni 711 Xx
Banserda [3110] A512623-B Ni Ic 913 Xx
Grovelunda [3223] A439667-A 323 Xx
Vestra [2415] A23474B-A 402 Xx
Neopis [2020] A676789-A Ri 521 Xx
Far Portal [0130] A238546-A N 323 Xx
Caldwell [0332] A401654-A N Ic 323 Xx
DOVER [2423] A8999A6-9 Hi In 213 Xx
Trondelm [3137] A53A8A9-9 Wa 211 Xx
Emoress [3117] A66A779-9 Wa 410 Xx
Baker [0334] A876677-8 N 905 Xx
Inast [1210] A663669-7 N Po Ni 812 Xx

My favorite (which is in the Glimmerdrift Reaches) is ALUUDI [0703] A334965-G 114 Xx. With TL-G/16 you have to wonder what they are doing, especially as they are stuck out in the Lesser/Delphi Rift! It's a small world, with a billion inhabitants, a captive government, but only moderate law levels. They have no alignment, so you have to wonder what is going on there, how they got TL-G/16, and who has them captive two parsecs from the Imperial border?

Secret research installation - govt type indicates that the govt is really run by the 3rd Imperium? But then why admit that on the UWP? (created as they are by the IISS) And why not an Imperial client state? And why such a low law level? And why ...

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Whatever solution you decide upon, it falls to the imagination how to rationally explain it to your gamers and yourself. The UWP's are broad guidelines, that we've seen!

Absolutely right, although I think that it can help beginning Traveller GMs if someone points out that options available for the workaround before some quick-witted player spots the problem and brings it up in game.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Commander Drax:
While I am thinking of it.

Does anyone fancy a ship-building contest.

We could start a new topic, and ask for entrants to submit their designs that could then be evaluated by other readers of the forum.

e.g. your design brief is to build a tech level 10 merchant as used by the Trindel Confederacy etc.

Any other parameters?

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Commander Drax:
I agree, I've always thought the freight and transport rules published in the various rules sets unduly favoured jump 1 vessels, the result being that more expensive jump 2 and 3 ships were not economical, my take on this is that the per jump rule only applies to passage e.g. the time spent by a person in a stateroom/low berth for one week. Whereas freight is transported at Cr1000 per ton per parsec.

In all then a jump 3 voyage would cost Cr10,000 credits for a high passage ticket or Cr3,000 per 1 ton of freight.

This would neatly explain why most civilian merchants devote more interior space to their cargo holds than passenger accomodation, despite the fact that passengers are more profitable than freight at Cr2500 per ton for a high passage in a standard stateroom compared to the measely Cr1000 per ton of freight. Following real life economics most starships would be passenger liners with small cargo holds that are only present to hold consumables such as life support, and ready meals (for passengers and crew) along with passenger baggage. (That gives me an idea for a ship design...)

Because this is not the case, then it stands to reason that more money must be made from the hold than from passengers.

Beyond Imperial space I think the per parsec rule should apply, not per jump, though I do like my compromise as illustrated above.

Only one problem with that compromise. A highpassage nets about Cr1800 per ton, depending on which rules you are using and how many you are carrying, in the per jump model. (Incidentally so does a Low Passage and a Mid passage is a bit less than that, about Cr1500 per ton.) If you are getting KCr2+ per ton of cargo in a Jump-2+ ship, why carry passengers at all?

 

[Commander Drax]

Well somebody has to carry them, people are mobile and want to go to the stars.

I imagine that under such an economic system where cargo paid more than passengers there would be some pure cargo transports out there, likewise there probably would be some 'Liner' type ships out there that apart from making money from passage would probably have a casino and gift shop, or charge extra for alcholic drinks etc, making their money up.

This is the situation on today's oceans with large bulk freighters carrying grain and automobiles etc alongside cruise liners etc.

I live near a port city, and the docks are huge, it is known that people wishing to travel somewhere on this rich and verdant planet without flying (probably because they are afraid of flying) go down to the port and after a docked ship has announced its destination speak to the captain or one of his officers and book passage to their next destination. The facilities are basic, they eat what the crew eats but other than that its the best way to travel if you hate flying.

My point is that people travel today on freighters for legitimate reasons, to the point that many of these ships keep a few cabins spare just in case.

Just to turn your question on its head. We know that under the current system in Traveller, passengers are worth more than cargo, so the question to ask, is why does anyone bother carrying cargo?

 

[BetterThanLife]

You carry cargo for several reasons, it is more readily available than passengers, it ensures that a Jump-1 ship can actually make its payments and it doesn't require a support crew. Further having the capacity means if a lucrative speculative cargo comes along that you can afford you don't have to take a pass.

Under the original rules a Jump-1 ship can make it carrying cargo alone. Very few ships can carry enough passengers, (given the availability of passengers on most systems) to make their payments without carrying cargo as well. The Type A can go virtually anywhere and still show a net profit. Will it always make ends meet, if you stick to low pop, low tech, worlds with D or worse starports? No. But if you don't make a habit of spending all your time in those ports you can usually make your payments on time. (And earn back your 20% down in less than 10 years.)

Originally posted by Commander Drax:
Well somebody has to carry them, people are mobile and want to go to the stars.

I imagine that under such an economic system where cargo paid more than passengers there would be some pure cargo transports out there, likewise there probably would be some 'Liner' type ships out there that apart from making money from passage would probably have a casino and gift shop, or charge extra for alcholic drinks etc, making their money up.

This is the situation on today's oceans with large bulk freighters carrying grain and automobiles etc alongside cruise liners etc.

I live near a port city, and the docks are huge, it is known that people wishing to travel somewhere on this rich and verdant planet without flying (probably because they are afraid of flying) go down to the port and after a docked ship has announced its destination speak to the captain or one of his officers and book passage to their next destination. The facilities are basic, they eat what the crew eats but other than that its the best way to travel if you hate flying.

My point is that people travel today on freighters for legitimate reasons, to the point that many of these ships keep a few cabins spare just in case.

Just to turn your question on its head. We know that under the current system in Traveller, passengers are worth more than cargo, so the question to ask, is why does anyone bother carrying cargo?

 

[Commander Drax]

Traveller does have a flawed economic model.

I created my own campaign background for GURPS once in which starships had a 'jump drive' which was based on the volume of the overall craft, and had an unlimited range (the further you jumped the riskier it got), also jumps were instanteous (no time experienced in jump). with this model all ships competed on equal terms and commerce reflected that, unlike Traveller in which ships that want to go further have to install bigger more expensive drives that push up their mortgage payments and make them uneconmical and by definition unrealistic.

It's easy to see that the traveller game was created around a small group of PCs in a jump 1 ship, with minimal thought given to the economics of jump 2 or higher. As proof of this I offer to you the spinward main.

 

[BetterThanLife]

On the topic of Ship types in Gateway, anyone else notice the fact that Anapabar has a Batron of Kokirraks assigned? The Testbed Ramada is testing TL15 components and has a jump-5 installed, but the Kokirrak is already in production? (Built from the ground up as TL-15 and incorporates a Black Globe-4 generator.)

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Commander Drax:
Traveller does have a flawed economic model.

It's easy to see that the traveller game was created around a small group of PCs in a jump 1 ship, with minimal thought given to the economics of jump 2 or higher. As proof of this I offer to you the spinward main.

And the fact that many of the major systems, with the high tech are off the main. Under the Traveller Economic model, as written, the Mains would have the High Tech planets and anything off the main would be a backwater.

The Spinward Main and the Vilani Main are extensive. (There is also an extensive main in The Solomani Rim.) The typical PC Jump-2 ship is the Scout Ship which conviently doesn't have much in the way of expenses.

 

[graden1]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
On the topic of Ship types in Gateway, anyone else notice the fact that Anapabar has a Batron of Kokirraks assigned? The Testbed Ramada is testing TL15 components and has a jump-5 installed, but the Kokirrak is already in production? (Built from the ground up as TL-15 and incorporates a Black Globe-4 generator.)

I missed that, Bhoins--did the Gateway book mention that, or was it stated elsewhere? In any event, I doubt those Kokirraks will stay there long, as they'll be sorely needed away Rimward....

 

[Liam Devlin]

On th topic of that, Mssr Bhoins, i did design a TL-C"jump spindle" and a 'corvette' for Osaka based on descriptions in the pdf of Gateway--that of course, lies in Gamma/Crucis margin...

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by Xavier Onassis:
I missed that, Bhoins--did the Gateway book mention that, or was it stated elsewhere? In any event, I doubt those Kokirraks will stay there long, as they'll be sorely needed away Rimward....

I missed that too ... where is it from?

 

[clementk]

A quick search of the Gateway pdf sez p. 93 for the Kokirrak BatRon.

Casey